Re: handles. Note how the set allows it to rotate so your wrists/elbows/shoulders will find its own unique groove to minimize the risk of injury.
you will know if inactive glutes is a problem if you successfully recruit them and then find yourself with DOMS. DOMS is good. then you will know whether you recruit your glutes properly when you walk and run and do your posterior chain movements.
i do one handed caries to improve my grip strength. carrying barbells with weight. by my side, but mostly overhead.
someone at the gym got some captain of the crush hand grippers. he swears by them. i had trouble closing the easiest set he had - and he said he had trouble too, to start, so seems that they work pretty good. bit of an investment, though.
[quote]56x11 wrote:
[quote]mkral55 wrote:
I greatly appreciate the replies.
I’ve been thinking about RDL’s, but my concern there is that I’m already borderline on overtraining my lower back (I’ve never trained it, at all until the last 8 months or so). Ditto for good-mornings. After deadlift day, the only thing that gets DOMS is my lower back, until the last one where I also did sprints that night. Basically the entire lower body was a bit sore, I should not have been doing hard sprints, but that’s in the past.
Far as my posture, I guess I can’t fully answer that question without an expert taking a look, but it seems like I might have some anterior pelvic tilt, might even be significant but not to the point of hyperlordosis. Can post a pic if that is helpful. The article here confirms what I had concluded myself, my posterior is weak. [/quote]
There certainly will be overlap between the RDLs and good mornings. You should alterate between the two and not perform them on the same session. Also, there is the option of reducing the volume on deads to make room for either RDLs or good mornings OR even replace a dead session with a RDL session.
Perhaps a competitive power lifter can chime in on this. I would think the RDLs will allow you to get in extra volume on your grip work. Also, you mention an anterior pelvic tilt. It’s not unusual to see this go up the kinetic chain this manner: anterior pelvic tilt → excess lordosis at lumbar spine → inability to extend at thoracic spine. Now, I’m not saying that you’re suffering from this (impossible to tell via an online forum). However, if you are unable to properly extend at the thoracic spine, your scaps (shoulder blades) will most likely be in an anterior tilt as well. This means you may not be able to properly retract and depress the scaps when the bar is at the base of your neck as in the good morning. Long story short, perhaps the RDL is a better accessory lift for you at this particular stage.
I don’t know if you remember Scott Abel. He used to post some fascinating articles on this site. Now, let me first say that I do NOT agree with every thing he says. However, he did come up with an amazing exercise that takes a great load of stress off the lower back while working your grip and hamstring complex.
The first two thirds of the vid shows the basic TRX hamstring workouts. Towards the end, you’ll see a movement that is surprisingly effective. Obviously, you do not have to use the TRX, any strong webbing and handles will suffice.
A well known strength coach who has been recently posting articles on this site does a variation on this in which he includes a reverse row. A good movement. What’s amusing is that he implies he invented this recently. Well, if you look at the date on the Scott Abel you tube vid, it shows 2009. And who knows…? It could be that Abel “borrowed” this from someone else as well.
Regardless, this is a viable option for you. I’ve done it. I’ve had my clients do it and it works quite well. If you find your grip going use straps or hang those ab slings on the handles. [/quote]
What’s funny is that I also had seen that “gliding leg curl”, and I realized that Bret Contreras had posted that exrc. on his YouTube channel in OCT 2009, preceding Abel by a couple of months. Dueling gliding leg curl inventors, ha ha… I actually love both of those guys for their outside the box thinking.
I’ve adopted the single leg hip thrust with foot, and shoulder elevated, to focus on hamstrings. Pretty safe movement, and the wider the distance between the shoulders and foot, the greater the hamstring challenge. I like the SLRDL as well b/c I like movements that force the glutes and hammies to work together. The glutes are tricky b/c they are part dynamic stabilizer, and part prime mover. I am extremely glute dominant, which sounds like a good thing, until the hammies start lagging behind. Then problems begin, b/c the hammies have enormous strength potential, that can go unrealized if the glutes keep punking them and taking over the whole hip extension movement.
Interesting thread, and I like powersnatch’s thoughts on eccentrics. I actually have come to identify a lack of eccentric “permission” from the CNS to be the culprit in many, many problems/injuries across my whole body. I theorize that eccentric training helps with tendinosis, for example, b/c it teaches the muscle to lengthen under load, lessening stress on the tendon. Whole 'nother thread, though.
[quote]felix uhlirach wrote:
Interesting thread, and I like powersnatch’s thoughts on eccentrics. I actually have come to identify a lack of eccentric “permission” from the CNS to be the culprit in many, many problems/injuries across my whole body. I theorize that eccentric training helps with tendinosis, for example, b/c it teaches the muscle to lengthen under load, lessening stress on the tendon. Whole 'nother thread, though.[/quote]
Not to change the thread topic, but actually the greater the eccentric load, the greater the stress will be on the tendons (and muscles as well). But, when performed intelligently, the increased load/stress increases the strength of the tendon, which will help with tendon strength (especially at the musculotendon juncture), tissue quality, injury prevention, etc.
[quote]alexus wrote:
you will know if inactive glutes is a problem if you successfully recruit them and then find yourself with DOMS. DOMS is good. then you will know whether you recruit your glutes properly when you walk and run and do your posterior chain movements.
i do one handed caries to improve my grip strength. carrying barbells with weight. by my side, but mostly overhead.
someone at the gym got some captain of the crush hand grippers. he swears by them. i had trouble closing the easiest set he had - and he said he had trouble too, to start, so seems that they work pretty good. bit of an investment, though.[/quote]
I get plenty DOMS from squats in every muscle below my waist, it seems. For deadlift, it’s been DOMS in the lower back only for the first 6 months or so, and shifted to my hamstrings and glutes more recently. More so in the hamstrings, but that may be because my accessory work is targeting them.
[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
[quote]felix uhlirach wrote:
Interesting thread, and I like powersnatch’s thoughts on eccentrics. I actually have come to identify a lack of eccentric “permission” from the CNS to be the culprit in many, many problems/injuries across my whole body. I theorize that eccentric training helps with tendinosis, for example, b/c it teaches the muscle to lengthen under load, lessening stress on the tendon. Whole 'nother thread, though.[/quote]
Not to change the thread topic, but actually the greater the eccentric load, the greater the stress will be on the tendons (and muscles as well). But, when performed intelligently, the increased load/stress increases the strength of the tendon, which will help with tendon strength (especially at the musculotendon juncture), tissue quality, injury prevention, etc.[/quote]
Good point, Levelheaded.
I have noticed that my tendinitis invariably traces back to the attached muscle being unwilling to lengthen. As it is one thing to passively stretch (relax) a muscle, it is another thing to allow a muscle to stretch under load.
Most eccentric therapies start with a very light weight and go to pain tolerance. I am sure that this slowly builds tendon strength as you mentioned, and possibly realigns collagen fibers. I also theorize that this repetitive, intentional eccentric focus conditions the muscle to allow the lengthening under load. The muscle is pliable, the tendon, not so much. If the muscle doesn’t give, the tendon will bear the brunt of the force, and possibly tear. This has actually happened to me with just body weight, when my quad for whatever reason, would not allow me to descend.
Another unfortunate aspect of this is once a tendon injury occurs, the muscle will try to protect it by limiting the ROM, again not allowing itself to lengthen. Now we have compounding interest of problems!
This is probably more of a CNS message training, as the muscle often is capable of the action. When Pavel says strength is a skill, this may be another aspect of that skill.
Sorry, hijack over.
^^^That’s a good theory. Well over 5 years ago, I suffered from patellar tendon issues from too much cycling in too large of a gear. In my frustration with the lack of help from docs and pts, I began my studies on the issue.
There turned out to be a guy in Iceland as I recall who had a blog about his knee (which he also hurt cycling). Well, long story short, this fellow was an adamant believer in slow eccentrics. I incorporated it into my training and it did work.
The key, however, is that you MUST also break down the adhesions and apply judicious static stretching. So, you’re theory could very well be correct. However, without breaking down the adhesions, the problem will quickly return.
This is why I suggested to the OP way back in my very first reply in this thread to incorporate slow eccentrics. I did not go into the science in depth, however. So, IMHO, this is an important tangent.
Very good points felix uhlirach and 56x11.
Without going into too much scientific detail, the tendons are at their best quality when they are primarily type I collagen fibers. After an injury, if not rehabilitated or treated properly, the fibers can shift away from the type I properties. By performing the eccentric training loads (along with the other proper therapies - soft tissue work, etc), you increase the strength of the tendon, reallign the fibers, and shift it back towards the type I properties.
56x11, the one thing I theorize with your specific knee injury from your biking, and why you responded so well to the eccentric training, is that biking is a majority concentric activity. There is little to no eccentric load being placed on your lower extremities while biking. This may have caused a weaking of your patellar tendon due to the decreased load being placed on them eccentrically during biking. Again, this is all speculatory and just a thought.
[quote]LevelHeaded wrote:
Very good points felix uhlirach and 56x11.
Without going into too much scientific detail, the tendons are at their best quality when they are primarily type I collagen fibers. After an injury, if not rehabilitated or treated properly, the fibers can shift away from the type I properties. By performing the eccentric training loads (along with the other proper therapies - soft tissue work, etc), you increase the strength of the tendon, reallign the fibers, and shift it back towards the type I properties.
56x11, the one thing I theorize with your specific knee injury from your biking, and why you responded so well to the eccentric training, is that biking is a majority concentric activity. There is little to no eccentric load being placed on your lower extremities while biking. This may have caused a weaking of your patellar tendon due to the decreased load being placed on them eccentrically during biking. Again, this is all speculatory and just a thought.[/quote]
Thanks very much for the input.
Yes, I concur with your theory. The very lack of eccentric in cycling did contribute significantly. Add to that fact the eccentric-less activity allows higher total volume and it’s not surprising to see so many cyclists with patellofemoral and IT band issues. Now, when I do ride, I’m proactive about “sweeping back” to engage the hamstring complex and “drive knees forward and up” to engage the hip flexor complex. In other words, I now pedal in circles whereas before I mashed in squares.
So, the change in technique, incorporating SMR/static stretch, better programming, slow eccentrics (something many of us on this thread agree on) strongly indicates a good blue print for the OP as well as others in his shoes.