Vegan Bodybuilding

Nutrition
61

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
NoeticFront wrote:
We were getting most of our protein from whey and tofu (in all its variations).
… But no, no veggie diets for us - it didn’t work.

You did it “wrong” and then claimed it didn’t work?!? Not to single you out too much, man, but that’s totally on you. Just like with an omnivorous diet, there’s absolutely no reason why you should be getting your protein from one or two sources.

What about pea, rice, hemp, beans, and nuts? All viable options for even the most strict vegan, and all things that likely would’ve helped you to avoid those nasty side effects you noticed. If you were allowing whey, you could’ve allowed other dairy too, which also would’ve helped.

I’m not a vegan or vegetarian myself, but for almost the last year I’ve reduced the amount of red meat in my diet and I’m feeling and training fine.[/quote]

Yeah, you’re probably right. We tried to research the subject as much as we could but couldn’t get some solid answers. Read a bunch of books and talked to a lot of people but it seemed like their idea of “working out” was different from ours. We both eat a ton of protein and it was hard to get that much without eating a shitload of carbs.

At any rate, I don’t think there is enough information on the subject and those people from the website on this thread don’t embody my ideal physique, so it’s hard to take advice from people like that. I’m SURE there is a way to do it right but we never found it.

62

On a different note, here’s an interesting experience I had -

Bodybuilding show #1 (many years ago) - did precontest diet STRICTLY with chicken. Results? So-so. Yeah, I got ripped (2% BF) but my strength plummeted and I felt pretty flat.

Bodybuilding show #2 - EXACT same diet, but this time with lean beef instead of the chicken. I got ripped AND was able to keep most of my strength and density, I even added 2 lbs. of muscle.

This makes no sense to me. I mean, protein should be protein, right? I know for a fact it’s not. My theory is that the body must release growth hormones when it senses that meat is being eaten (could be an instinctual thing). I don’t know. Maybe I’m full of shit, but I did notice a big difference.

63

Yeah, I guess my point was to kill it yourself. Anyway, I had estrogen-like symptoms too until I stopped eating soy. It can make you a bit of a girly-man for sure. I wonder if those vegans are still on the soy wagon.

64

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
Just to throw out a few more Devil’s Advocate-ish examples of successful vegetarian bodybuilding (I’ll admit that things get more complicated as a vegan, although Mike Mahler and Robert Dos Remedios have made strict veganism work for them):

Above is Roy Hilligenn, a lifelong vegetarian and 1951 Mr. America. He had a 375 clean and jerk at 173 pounds.

Andreas Cahling and Albert Beckles are two other successful vegetarian bodybuilders.[/quote]

chris colucci!!!

now… do you really think they lived their entire life as vegetrarians?

I am betting they GAINED their muscle with meat protein.

and then later on in life switched to a vegetarian lifestyle.

yeah… because I have read these profiles before. Most of them made their muscle with meat, and then switched.

65

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
Just to throw out a few more Devil’s Advocate-ish examples of successful vegetarian bodybuilding (I’ll admit that things get more complicated as a vegan, although Mike Mahler and Robert Dos Remedios have made strict veganism work for them):

Above is Roy Hilligenn, a lifelong vegetarian and 1951 Mr. America. He had a 375 clean and jerk at 173 pounds.

Andreas Cahling and Albert Beckles are two other successful vegetarian bodybuilders.

chris colucci!!!

now… do you really think they lived their entire life as vegetrarians?

I am betting they GAINED their muscle with meat protein.

and then later on in life switched to a vegetarian lifestyle.

yeah… because I have read these profiles before. Most of them made their muscle with meat, and then switched.

[/quote]

Probably true but, wouldn’t they lose the mass even if this was the case?

66

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
Just to throw out a few more Devil’s Advocate-ish examples of successful vegetarian bodybuilding (I’ll admit that things get more complicated as a vegan, although Mike Mahler and Robert Dos Remedios have made strict veganism work for them):

Above is Roy Hilligenn, a lifelong vegetarian and 1951 Mr. America. He had a 375 clean and jerk at 173 pounds.

Andreas Cahling and Albert Beckles are two other successful vegetarian bodybuilders.

chris colucci!!!

now… do you really think they lived their entire life as vegetrarians?

I am betting they GAINED their muscle with meat protein.

and then later on in life switched to a vegetarian lifestyle.

yeah… because I have read these profiles before. Most of them made their muscle with meat, and then switched.

Probably true but, wouldn’t they lose the mass even if this was the case?[/quote]

Probably not. As long as they kept training as much as they used to and trying to keep their protein intake as high as possible, they should be able to keep most of their mass.

67

[quote]MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
Just to throw out a few more Devil’s Advocate-ish examples of successful vegetarian bodybuilding (I’ll admit that things get more complicated as a vegan, although Mike Mahler and Robert Dos Remedios have made strict veganism work for them):

Above is Roy Hilligenn, a lifelong vegetarian and 1951 Mr. America. He had a 375 clean and jerk at 173 pounds.

Andreas Cahling and Albert Beckles are two other successful vegetarian bodybuilders.

chris colucci!!!

now… do you really think they lived their entire life as vegetrarians?

I am betting they GAINED their muscle with meat protein.

and then later on in life switched to a vegetarian lifestyle.

yeah… because I have read these profiles before. Most of them made their muscle with meat, and then switched.

Probably true but, wouldn’t they lose the mass even if this was the case?

Probably not. As long as they kept training as much as they used to and trying to keep their protein intake as high as possible, they should be able to keep most of their mass.[/quote]

I agree, but if you can keep mass on a vegan diet…you’d be able to build just the same right?..just curious

68

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
Doghouse Reilly wrote:
Mike Mahler has a profile on that web site, he’s written numerous articles for T-Nation and I haven’t ever seen him mention his vegan diet. I was surprised to see him on there. That guy Avi looks like he isn’t hurting for protein or anything. Most of the rest though, don’t impress me at all.

Avi looks like he needs protein??? assuming he’s telling the truth, the vegan diet is working FOR HIM. Looks better than most meat eating lifters.[/quote]

No, I said “that guy Avi looks like he ISN’T hurting for protein…”
I don’t quite see where the misunderstanding was. Personally I eat a vegan diet because I feel best on it and have no problem building muscle mass, but I don’t eat your standard grain/bean based diet. I don’t believe those foods are suitable for humans. I eat an 80% fruit based diet.

69

[quote]Doghouse Reilly wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
Doghouse Reilly wrote:
Mike Mahler has a profile on that web site, he’s written numerous articles for T-Nation and I haven’t ever seen him mention his vegan diet. I was surprised to see him on there. That guy Avi looks like he isn’t hurting for protein or anything. Most of the rest though, don’t impress me at all.

Avi looks like he needs protein??? assuming he’s telling the truth, the vegan diet is working FOR HIM. Looks better than most meat eating lifters.

No, I said “that guy Avi looks like he ISN’T hurting for protein…”

I don’t quite see where the misunderstanding was. Personally I eat a vegan diet because I feel best on it and have no problem building muscle mass, but I don’t eat your standard grain/bean based diet. I don’t believe those foods are suitable for humans. I eat an 80% fruit based diet.
[/quote]

How does it work for gaining muscle…do tell

70

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
chris colucci!!!

now… do you really think they lived their entire life as vegetrarians?

I am betting they GAINED their muscle with meat protein.

and then later on in life switched to a vegetarian lifestyle.

yeah… because I have read these profiles before. Most of them made their muscle with meat, and then switched.[/quote]

OctoberGirl!!! :wink:

While the majority of info I can refer to is limited to the super-interweb, Hilligenn has said he is (or rather was, he passed away this August,) a lifelong vegetarian.
http://www.cbass.com/Hilligenn.htm

Mahler and Dos Remedios have been vegan for a long time - Mahler’s been vegan for almost 15 years and was vegetarian for five years before that. Dos has been vegan for about 19 years. In that amount of time, I’m comfortable making the leap to say that they’re stronger and/or bigger today than they were two decades ago.

After a little more digging, I found a conflicting report as to whether Beckles was either a vegetarian or if he just didn’t eat red meat, so let’s even say he’s a no-go.

I couldn’t find much specific info about Cahling, but I’ve read that he’s been a vegetarian for over 25 years, which covered most of his competitive career (meaning he wasn’t just maintaining, but was thriving).

Bill Pearl is another popular “vegetarian bodybuilder” but from what I’ve read, he only became a lacto-ovo vegetarian in the last few years of his competitive bodybuilding career. But again, it’s while he was actively competing, not just maintaining sedentary lifestyle.

Steve Holt ( http://www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com ) is another guy who’s been vegetarian for 25+ years and has been competing successfully, not just maintaining.

So all this talk about maintaining size but not being able to building it… seriously people, if a 200-pound guy lifts heavy and consistently, while eating 4,500 calories, 250 grams of protein, 600 grams of carbs, and 120 grams of fat, do y’all think he won’t get big just because he’s a vegetarian?

And let me just throw this out there, semi-rhetorically: If the Anabolic Diet can be successful while requiring users to restrict their food choices, then why can’t a vegetarian diet that still provides sufficient calories, protein, fats, and carbohydrates also be successful?

71

[quote]slimthugger wrote:
MeinHerzBrennt wrote:
slimthugger wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
Just to throw out a few more Devil’s Advocate-ish examples of successful vegetarian bodybuilding (I’ll admit that things get more complicated as a vegan, although Mike Mahler and Robert Dos Remedios have made strict veganism work for them):

Above is Roy Hilligenn, a lifelong vegetarian and 1951 Mr. America. He had a 375 clean and jerk at 173 pounds.

Andreas Cahling and Albert Beckles are two other successful vegetarian bodybuilders.

chris colucci!!!

now… do you really think they lived their entire life as vegetrarians?

I am betting they GAINED their muscle with meat protein.

and then later on in life switched to a vegetarian lifestyle.

yeah… because I have read these profiles before. Most of them made their muscle with meat, and then switched.

Probably true but, wouldn’t they lose the mass even if this was the case?

Probably not. As long as they kept training as much as they used to and trying to keep their protein intake as high as possible, they should be able to keep most of their mass.

I agree, but if you can keep mass on a vegan diet…you’d be able to build just the same right?..just curious[/quote]

Going on pure intuition here, but I don’t think these are remotely the same. That is, building mass and maintaining it.

If we forget about veganism for a bit and think of a regular BBer, it is far easier to ease up once you’ve accumulated enough mass and simply maintain it. It doesn’t take much to simply maintain what you have; you don’t have to truly push yourself anymore, and you don’t have to be as meticulous with your diet. However, we all know how much of a pain it is to actually accumulate that mass to begin with.

So I would say that it would be very possible to simply maintain the type of physique that a BBer obtained while on a regular diet, even if they switched to veganism/vegetarianism.

That’s also assuming they can do at least a half way decent job of getting their daily protein.

72

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
OctoberGirl wrote:
chris colucci!!!

now… do you really think they lived their entire life as vegetrarians?

I am betting they GAINED their muscle with meat protein.

and then later on in life switched to a vegetarian lifestyle.

yeah… because I have read these profiles before. Most of them made their muscle with meat, and then switched.

OctoberGirl!!! :wink:

While the majority of info I can refer to is limited to the super-interweb, Hilligenn has said he is (or rather was, he passed away this August,) a lifelong vegetarian.
http://www.cbass.com/Hilligenn.htm

Mahler and Dos Remedios have been vegan for a long time - Mahler’s been vegan for almost 15 years and was vegetarian for five years before that. Dos has been vegan for about 19 years. In that amount of time, I’m comfortable making the leap to say that they’re stronger and/or bigger today than they were two decades ago.

After a little more digging, I found a conflicting report as to whether Beckles was either a vegetarian or if he just didn’t eat red meat, so let’s even say he’s a no-go.

I couldn’t find much specific info about Cahling, but I’ve read that he’s been a vegetarian for over 25 years, which covered most of his competitive career (meaning he wasn’t just maintaining, but was thriving).

Bill Pearl is another popular “vegetarian bodybuilder” but from what I’ve read, he only became a lacto-ovo vegetarian in the last few years of his competitive bodybuilding career. But again, it’s while he was actively competing, not just maintaining sedentary lifestyle.

Steve Holt ( http://www.vegetarianbodybuilder.com ) is another guy who’s been vegetarian for 25+ years and has been competing successfully, not just maintaining.

So all this talk about maintaining size but not being able to building it… seriously people, if a 200-pound guy lifts heavy and consistently, while eating 4,500 calories, 250 grams of protein, 600 grams of carbs, and 120 grams of fat, do y’all think he won’t get big just because he’s a vegetarian?

And let me just throw this out there, semi-rhetorically: If the Anabolic Diet can be successful while requiring users to restrict their food choices, then why can’t a vegetarian diet that still provides sufficient calories, protein, fats, and carbohydrates also be successful?[/quote]

ah Chris Colucci… !!

sure, throw some logic of “if they get enough protein, why not?”

My train of thought is more along the lines that I would have thought it would be hard to get that amount of protein per day on a vegan diet.

but, yes I see that you are right that if the person can eat the cals and the protein/fat requirements then they can build or maintain that type of physique.

73

I will say that after a year of training with a vegan I have made a few observations:

  1. After you get to 180+ pounds you have to almost force feed yourself to get enough calories to grow since most food is NOT nutrient dense for a vegan.

  2. You will have the most predictable bowl movements ever.

  3. Learn to love beans and nuts or you wont get enough protein.

  4. You have to watch micro-nutrients closely or you will become deficient in lots of things. He has a gum he chews 4 pieces of a day to counteract that (I forget what is in it).

  5. Staying lean is easy. But, if you think “clean bulking” is hard an slow, doing it vegan seems to be even slower.

Is it possible? I would say yes, however, it is a LOT more work and seems slower to me that a meat eating lifestyle. That said, my buddy recently gave up vegan for just vegetarian and has made much better gains over the past 3 months.

Overall I think its actually a pretty decent way to cut, but for bulking, I think it is rather inefficient.

Just my 0.02…

74

i live w/ an md/phd, who is a vegetarian, my girlfriend of twelve years, she trains like a beast and is very muscular, i agree some of the women looked sloppy.

a genetic predisposition to carry muscle is helpful.

being a smart vegetarian is the healthiest way to eat and live, but not the easiest way to live to gain muscle mass.

whey, casein, soy, egg, etc all help, being a vegan however seems difficult.

i just finished my chicken and steak dinner…maybe by age 40 i’ll make the switch but i doubt it.

75

[quote]Ratchet wrote:
I will say that after a year of training with a vegan I have made a few observations:

  1. After you get to 180+ pounds you have to almost force feed yourself to get enough calories to grow since most food is NOT nutrient dense for a vegan.

  2. You will have the most predictable bowl movements ever.

  3. Learn to love beans and nuts or you wont get enough protein.

  4. You have to watch micro-nutrients closely or you will become deficient in lots of things. He has a gum he chews 4 pieces of a day to counteract that (I forget what is in it).

  5. Staying lean is easy. But, if you think “clean bulking” is hard an slow, doing it vegan seems to be even slower.

Is it possible? I would say yes, however, it is a LOT more work and seems slower to me that a meat eating lifestyle. That said, my buddy recently gave up vegan for just vegetarian and has made much better gains over the past 3 months.

Overall I think its actually a pretty decent way to cut, but for bulking, I think it is rather inefficient.

Just my 0.02…[/quote]

I agree with all the above, I was a vegan for a two years. Once I started lifting, I had to eat loads of beans, tofu etc to get protein. It takes lots of planning to pull this off, but when you eat animals all you have to do is grill cjicken and htrow it on a salad

76

I just don’t get why people get upset…
I know there are zealots and goons preaching

But really what you eat does not make me shit.
But I can see why some people get upset at
people who preach.

I have not eaten red meat or chicken in probably 20 years I don’t really miss it.
And dairy makes me super bloated.
I love fish.

I was a vegan for several of those years,
I never liked beef, or chicken really.
turkey I have eaten a handful of times
in the last 5 years

I did sports in college, and was vegan for some of that, and was fine, excelled at my sport and felt good. I wrestled, and being a vegan allowed me to eat a ton, far far more then I eat now. and I eat allot.

Doing it right is work, work work, shopping, prep, and cooking occupy allot of time
Now I eat fish, dairy eggs, I like good food too much to not eat it. And I travel a TON for work, catering can suck.

anyway being vegan/veg if you are doing it,
and not for Bullshit reasons you can thrive.

kmc

77

I pick one meal one meal per day that I have an animal protien, such as chicken

78

[quote]kmcnyc wrote:
I just don’t get why people get upset…
I know there are zealots and goons preaching

But really what you eat does not make me shit.
But I can see why some people get upset at
people who preach.

I have not eaten red meat or chicken in probably 20 years I don’t really miss it.
And dairy makes me super bloated.
I love fish.

I was a vegan for several of those years,
I never liked beef, or chicken really.
turkey I have eaten a handful of times
in the last 5 years

I did sports in college, and was vegan for some of that, and was fine, excelled at my sport and felt good. I wrestled, and being a vegan allowed me to eat a ton, far far more then I eat now. and I eat allot.

Doing it right is work, work work, shopping, prep, and cooking occupy allot of time
Now I eat fish, dairy eggs, I like good food too much to not eat it. And I travel a TON for work, catering can suck.

anyway being vegan/veg if you are doing it,
and not for Bullshit reasons you can thrive.

kmc[/quote]

Is someone trying to force feed you a cow? I thought the question was if you could make and keep significant gains while maintaining a vegan diet.

But I like your attitude. I have enough work feeding myself and don’t pay attention to what others are shoveling.

79

[quote]OctoberGirl wrote:
Chris Colucci wrote:
So all this talk about maintaining size but not being able to building it… seriously people, if a 200-pound guy lifts heavy and consistently, while eating 4,500 calories, 250 grams of protein, 600 grams of carbs, and 120 grams of fat, do y’all think he won’t get big just because he’s a vegetarian?

And let me just throw this out there, semi-rhetorically: If the Anabolic Diet can be successful while requiring users to restrict their food choices, then why can’t a vegetarian diet that still provides sufficient calories, protein, fats, and carbohydrates also be successful?

ah Chris Colucci… !!

sure, throw some logic of “if they get enough protein, why not?”[/quote]
Ah Octobergirl!! (AhhhctoberGirl?!?)
Yeah, call me crazy, resorting to low down, dirty tactics like logic. :wink: It does sound like some people have been connecting vegetarian diets with being inherently protein-deficient. But that’s not really a fair fight. An omnivorous diet won’t build muscle if it’s protein-deficient, obviously, so the rules really aren’t any different.

If someone is training for size, strength, fat loss, or whatever, they’re going to have to make sure they’re getting the proper nutrients or else they won’t succeed. This is universal, regardless of the specific nutrition plan they decide to follow, and should go without saying.

[quote]My train of thought is more along the lines that I would have thought it would be hard to get that amount of protein per day on a vegan diet.

but, yes I see that you are right that if the person can eat the cals and the protein/fat requirements then they can build or maintain that type of physique.[/quote]
Maybe a few years back it was more difficult to get sufficient protein from only whole foods, but I believe there have recently been some successful powders and supplements that greatly level the playing field.

For more effective vegetarian nutrition info, y’all might want to check out:
http://www.jasonferruggia.com/?page_id=155
http://www.jasonferruggia.com/?page_id=159
http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/vegan_diet.html
Vegan UFC Pro Mac Danzig’s typical diet: http://www.jasonferruggia.com/?page_id=164

80

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
For more effective vegetarian nutrition info, y’all might want to check out:
http://www.jasonferruggia.com/?page_id=155
http://www.jasonferruggia.com/?page_id=159
http://www.mikemahler.com/articles/vegan_diet.html
Vegan UFC Pro Mac Daznig’s typical diet: http://www.jasonferruggia.com/?page_id=164

[/quote]

There’s also some good stuff on Ryan Andrews’ section of the Precision Nutrition site, both vegetarian and vegan.

FWIW a guy I know, who’s been vegan for the last 8-9 years, just pulled a lifetime PR of 265kg at around 95kg BW.