Apparently the 2 brother weighed in at 165lbs each and Eddie at 370lbs. Thats one hell of a weight and size difference to overcome.
Just as my astrologist predicted, the planets have aligned in a way that has resulted in this topic being revived. It has been on my mind in the last week for two reasons.1) I recently agreed to return to the call list for part-time backup dive bar bouncing with no actual commitment to pick up any shifts. 2) I am almost done listening to Joe Roganâs latest podcast with guest Tank Abbot.
I agreed to re-activate as a part-time backup dive bar bouncer for silly boyish reasons, because I donât need the money. I havenât drank any alcohol since early February, but I still like to go get a meal and a club soda at the old dive bar once a week or so. I did this last Tuesday to be greeted by our newish doorman and all of his buddies in the Hells Angels shooting the shit and selling club apparel outside. They have recently discovered our great little neighborhood dive bar and are making it a weekly stop on their motorcycle adventures. He blew a little smoke up my ass and told me that they could use a guy who isnât afraid to bang, going on to bitch about the other doormen who take a different approach to the task by not really performing the task.
I foolishly told him that I can pick up an occasional Saturday shift, because I didnât want the Hells Angels who just met me to get the wrong impression based off of my complete lack of tattoos and the Vibram toe shoes, dorky glasses and button-up plaid shirt I was wearing, or the retiree sedan I arrived in.
Perhaps Iâll get to put the theories in this thread back to the test soon.
The Tank Abbot discussion was pretty entertaining to me but one phrase he kept using really stuck, making me think of both this thread and @T3hPwnisherâs recent grappling competition.
âFighterâs Fortitudeâ.
Abbot divided fighting success into two components. âSkillâ and âFighterâs Fortitudeâ. He used Royce Gracie as an example of someone with high levels of both, and I agree. Fighterâs Fortitude is everything that isnât technical skills, which is to say it is an amalgamation of size, strength, conditioning and a willingness to endure punishment while continuing to actively respond to the situation.
If you turtle up when someone can destroy your skull, for instance, your Fighterâs Fortitude has been exhausted and youâre about to lose the fight and possibly much more. They also went into a discussion about how MMA rules turn situations like this into bad fight habits, where turning off your Fighterâs Fortitude is advantageous under the rules of the sport. Turtling, posting your hand on the ground and other stupid things are rewarded, but sport competition rules arenât the subject of this thread.
Weâve been talking about Fighterâs Fortitude since post 1, just with different terms than what Tank Abbot used. Size, strength and conditioning form our capacity to fight, expressed by whatever skills we have developed and retained in that moment, enabled by our willingness to continue fighting until weâve won the struggle or are rendered unable.
Like I said in the original post, none of this is meant to diminish the importance of training to develop a broader skillset and anyone who has trained with serious and skilled people can tell you exactly how much skill can matter in a violent struggle with another person.
Similarly, anyone like me can tell you how developing your Fighterâs Fortitude is often more than enough to come out on top, especially when Fighterâs Fortitude is in short supply among men who start fights at bars. I suspect those guys in the Hells Angels I met last Tuesday would agree. @T3hPwnisher recorded a great display of Fighterâs Fortitude in a grappling competition by showing up with a lot more of it than anyone else that day, which was enough to come out on top.
I have put more men in handcuffs through fortitude than skill, for sure.
Skill definitely has a place but methamphetamine could give a fuck about your textbook kimura grip
@idaho has posted some awesome stories.
My favorite is the one where (to the best of my recollection) a drugged up to the max dude will keep coming at you even if getting shot, until he/it literally drops dead.
I was just listening to a clip of that yesterday lol. I chuckled when Tank talked about the champion BJJ guy who had him in the armbar(?), then Tank picked him up with the intent of Iâm going to slam you into oblivion before you break my armâŠthen the dudeâs eyes got big and the âfightâ ended.
I watched those first year UFC fights with Tank. Dude was a genuine bad dude. Looks like your favorite uncle now thoughâŠ
One of my favorite saved videos British bouncer/doormen training in the 70s
Very much appreciate the nod there dude! Itâs high praise from you. I just finished the episode as well: I got SO excited when I saw that Tank was gonna be on JRE for just that reason: he totally personified all that âotherâ stuff that matters when it comes to fights. I felt like early era Bob Sapp was similar with this iconic moment
And, in turn, Bob is ALSO a classic example in how all of that other stuff doesnât matter if you donât have the real âFighterâs Fortitudeâ that Tank talks about, which is something that Sam Sheridan in âFighterâs Heartâ summed up as âgamenessâ ala dogfighting.
There definitely is this falsely presumed sense of security that, if you go to jits and tap out a bunch of dudes every week, it makes you a âfighterâ. Often, youâll come across a dude thatâs never taken a lesson and holds no ranks but is just dangerous by nature ofâŠwellâŠtheir nature.
Itâs been a long time since Iâve been in a fight but from what I recall the old fashioned ground and pound strategy works well. I did wrestle so takedowns and ground control were practiced events, but ultimately using size and strength to put someone on the ground and hold them in place while you punch them will win the fight the vast majority of the time imo. I know bjj is all the rage right now, but similar concept, just torquing arms instead of punching faces. BJJ is the only discipline with a hope against someone bigger and stronger on the ground.
Regarding bikers specifically, I usually just mind my manners. I ride a Harley myself and am fully aware there is a difference between Harley riders and âbikersâ. Sometimes you see riders in costume hoping to pass themselves off as a biker and sure, yank those beards. But the bikers, even if you could beat the shit out them, are pretty well connected here. A five minute call to skip trace your license plate or driver license or whatever they get their hands on and they know you, your address, your family et cetera. And for extra fun theyâre directly connected to cartels. I would keep âstrengthâ in mind and wouldnât recommend pulling beards. Theyâre not the trailer park, homegrown meth lab variety.
Iâm not an MMA/BJJ/Boxing guy, but have been in a lot of bar fights. Being big and strong is usually a deterrent. Itâs the short fuckers who pull the âheads I win, tails you lose,â philosophy where they either kick your ass and are the hero, or you are the bully if they lose.
So the best fights are ones avoided. Buy them a drink, challenge them to arm wrestle, say you want mozarella sticks first, anything turn down the temperature.
If that escalates, go outside and give them your coat or something. I know, sounds dumb but it works. I projectile vomited into an NFL players mouth once because there were Jeager shots being ordered and I couldnât handle it. He was very confused about the coat offer but it solved the problem.
For actual fights, just walk up and plan to end it as fast as possible. Grab their ear and their eye with your hand and thumb - normally these fights are tough guys who think there are rules that will protect them. Just go for the throat after blowing a kiss, pretend to take a phone call then follow up with a sucker punch or kick to the gut (legal tip - rarely leaves bruses,) if there is a crowd around humiliation works better than dominance.
Use your size and strength to fight dirty.
I was a bouncer back in my younger days with some fellow judokas and the number one advice I was given was to isolate and trip unruly drunks that about to start shit.
If the police show up âhe punched me in faceâ is taken seriously, âhe tripped me and I fell on my ass and now my hip hurtsâ is not.
Given my size and MMA background someone asked me once what I would do in a true street fight. They were quite surprised when I said âkick him in the nuts and punch him in the throat before running awayâ. Survival fight - anything goes.
Until youâve tried to control a person who is out-of-their-mind on drugs and/or alcohol, you really canât appreciate just how unhinged people can become and how much of a HANDFUL they are, especially if for legal or ethical purposes you canât simply smash them into a pulp. I knew that alcoholics existed before working bar security, I just didnât truly understand how bat-shit crazy things can get until I took a job waiting for it to happen.
This is true. Sometimes you end up having to deal with someone who is ready to fight, ready to go to jail and probably ready to die right then, right there in that unhinged moment. Drugs and alcohol donât do anything to help someoneâs fighting skills, but they can absolutely give someoneâs Fighterâs Fortitude a really big boost.
As far as armbars go, theyâve never been a go-to in my goon toolbox. They are there and I know how to do them from a variety of positions, but Iâve only ever considered them an âoh shitâ type of move if I happen to be on my back and in a bad spot. My plan A in situations like that is to look for the sweep or to create space and get back to my feet. I do not hunt armbars from mount because Iâd rather just stay in the mount. You canât lose a fight from the mount unless more than one person is in play.
At the end of the day an armbar is just someoneâs deadlift strength pitted against the other personâs curl strength, but only if youâre really locked in to eliminate the possibility of someone just ripping out of it or picking you up and ground slams are always a possibility. Broken arms are also not fight enders.
I really enjoyed that. Not a whole lot has changed and what they describe is more or less exactly what I experienced on the job. If anything has changed, itâs society producing fewer and fewer men who are even capable of performing the task.
My coachâs coach talks about the fallacy of training for the tap. Armbars are a perfect example. Lots of people tap out to armbars that arenât cleanly executed, where actually deranging the joint isnât very likely. People often donât want to enter the margins of movement where an armbar battle is ârealâ, instead opting to tap as soon as itâs close or an armbar shape gets made. This can result in peopleâs movement patterns being reinforced towards armbars that arenât tight enough to, say, leave the safety of the mount in order to attempt one.
Train to derange the joint, not for the tap. You donât want to learn that your armbar actually sucks the first time you try it on some goon who can toss you across the room.
This reminds me of the times after things got chippy when Iâd get the âI wouldnât mess with youâ comment. My retort has always been âWhy would you mess with anybody?â.
Iâve had problems with bikers during two separate events that I can specifically recall, and none were part of club, let alone a 1% OMC. Interestingly, the biggest dude I ever bounced, who I donât think had much in the way of skills OR Fighterâs Fortitude, completely stopped the asshole bully behavior when he began prospecting for our local OMC, who are the guys that are affiliated with the Hells Angels. The club grown-ups know damn well that acting like an asshole is bad for the club and they seem to do a good job keeping their members in line.
Anytime I saw patched-up bikers roll up in numbers it was the same feeling Iâd get the time a group of bodybuilders rolled up. These guys can cause me a lot of problems if they wanted to, but theyâre just here to have a good time. I have had zero issues with any patched-in motorcycle club members from any of the 1 percenter clubs thatâve came in for a beer.
The Hells Angels guys there last week did not appear to lack Fighterâs Fortitude.
The best self-defense is simply good conduct. Most fights are optional.
Sasae tsurikomi ashi is my favorite trip to use in bouncing situations, but I didnât include it in the original post because it was too technically refined compared to belt grabs, beard grabs or a hard shove. This is the goon thread, not the timing and elegance thread.
If keeping yourself safe from street fights is your goal, training to run is probably the best thing to do. Just be gone.
Yeah this has been my observation too. Itâs not worth the smoke for them. Theyâre usually pretty cool as long as everyone is just hanging out in a backroad watering hole. Always interesting spots with 1%ers, play bikers and then lawyers and dentists and whatever else out enjoying wind therapy. Sometimes, especially in Texas and somewhat near Austin, David Allen Coe is still very relevant. Bikers staring at cowboys who are laughing at hippies.
Different dominant group here but same notoriety. One on one theyâre just aging guys for the most part, albeit old guys willing to stab you to death as a group activity. Or come find you later.
Itâs the guys in vests with nothing patches with the worst attitudes for sure. Nothing scary there if you know what youâre looking at but they love playing tough in the normie crowd and can be boisterous for sure. Theyâre kind of like balloons though. Inflated and easy to pop. You can just test them by saying hi and destroying their FTW projection. Melts them every time.
Agreed, my assertion here had the implied assumption that that initial option had already passed.
Not sure this is in the same vein. As I get older, 61, I find just simple Situational Awareness pays massive dividends. If you are fit and move well, which most on here should. Usually, being aware and making little adjustments helps. Most attackers can sense when someone can move well, is making adjustments to avoid or put themselves in a better defensive position, they donât want that they want the weak, easy mark. Amazing what positioning and awareness can do on the street. Does not replace training or fitness, but positioning, location and knowing whats around you can make a huge difference.
I feel as though weâre moving away from âusing your size and strength in a fightâ and more toward âThe Tactical Lifeâ here
Fair enough.
Using just strength, Judo instructor told me once if in a fight just pick him up and slam him to the ground or into a wall. Concrete is bestâŠ
Never mind the judo technique. Fast and violent, pick em up, slam them down. Using that leather belt and collar, same movement as High pulls or RDL.
Do you want to go to jail? Thatâs a good way to get a manslaughter charge, at best.
The idea of picking someone up and slamming them is the type of approach I wanted to highlight when I started this topic a few years ago. Thatâs not something Iâd do to someone in a bouncing job, but if the whistle blows while Iâm out and about minding my own business all options are potentially on the table.
Martial arts are great and I think anyone who works a potentially violent job should probably get some mat time and bag time in. Training serious martial arts under people who both understand and promote the importance of what weâre calling Fighterâs Fortitude can also develop that fortitude in ways that lifting weights and hard conditioning cannot.
This is T-Nation, a site oriented around getting bigger, stronger, leaner and fitter. Developing those attributes and becoming a fucking tank of a dude opens up possibilities that are not available to the smaller and weaker person, no matter how skilled they might be.
What I learned training with the toughest martial artists in the state is that their martial arts is absolutely enough to overcome any problem I can present through my attributes, barring a lucky knockout strike. I also learned that there arenât very many guys like that walking around and the toolbox you need to deal with trained fighters isnât the same as the toolbox thatâs best for dealing with bar fight encounters and similar types of violence.
Being bigger, stronger and in better shape combined with simply being tougher than the other guy is what allows us to knock on the front door first and have success when things get chippy.
This thread is about knocking on the front door first using our attributes. Tank Abbot wasnât unskilled, he was just less technical than most of his opponents. He had far more training than the average person. His success came from his unusually high level of Fighterâs Fortitude, developed by being one tough sonofabitch and becoming as strong as possible.
Abbot spoke about this specifically on the recent podcast, remarking how he put the tank in Tank Abbot when he unburdened himself from weight classes and just got as strong as he could.
I was JUST about to write this while reading your post until I got to the end, but that part of the interview was SO important. Tank was a 190lb wrestler, but once he started fighting he made it a POINT to get as big and strong as possible. He talked about how he set out to eat EVERYTHING in order to accumulate size, and boy did he succeed. And he paired it with still training hard enough to have SOME degree of wind for a dude his size, and then had a plan to simply not have the fights last long enough for it to matter.
Thereâs a lot of wisdom to that. Hell, look at the King of the 3 rounders with Butterbean in a similar way. When we take weight classes out of the equation, it matters to be big. The phase âAll things being equal, a good big man will beat a good little manâ holds true.
UFC 8 was billed as âDavid vs Goliathâ. Why is that Biblical story so significant? Because David winning was unexpected, because of COURSE Goliath is supposed to win. And thatâs exactly what happened for the majority of the matches that night, with Paul Varelans posing as a very suitable Goliath.
I truly love that he came from Fairbanks Alaska. Itâs practically âParts Unknownâ
And Hell, Gary Goodridgeâs ring name was BIG Daddy for a reason.