Using Your Size and Strength In a Fight

So, getting back to the premise of this thread. My 6 year old has been mistaken as being several years older - he has always been 100%+ for weight/height. We do fun exercises like yard games, bodyweight stuff, I let him play with the weights in the basement, and so on because I want him to develop base fitness and choose a sport that interests him later on.

TODAY HE GRABBED ANOTHER KIDS HAND, USED IT TO HIT THEM IN THE MOUTH, AND NOW THE KID IS MISSING TEETH!

It’s still not resolved, but yeah. If a 6 year old can break out teeth, I think that’s an answer.

Perhaps a career in part-time backup dive bar bouncing may be in his future!

I know a former SF guy who now trains Krav Maga as a consultant of sorts… to the Israeli military.

For what it’s worth he’s seen live action up close and personal and understands full speed and intensity… all the way to the end.

We’ve had this “size and strength vs training” conversation.

His take, fwiw, is that he wouldn’t find out and would just shoot me where me may be situationally more inclined to not resort to shooting others immediately.

Just his opinion but martial isn’t an “art” for him. Nor is it about scoring technical points.

That’s why I don’t think Krav Maga has any utility for me. When I bounced the combination of strength, size and conditioning coupled with BJJ turned most situations that might have been a real scrap into a minor affair.

For normal people going about your business, good conduct and a concealed handgun has you covered.

If you want to learn how to use your bare hands, you’ll need to bang hard under a good coach, or just develop your physical advantages to the point that you can impose your will on someone. There’s just no substitute.

I keep hearing about elite operator types gravitating to Krav and maybe there’s value that I’m not seeing. It seems like something that would attract a lot of self defense coaches who could not defend themselves from a guy like me, let alone an athletic unit in his prime.

He explains it as an adapted form of what’s taught in dojos. And they use elements of bjj and other stuff, but selectively. Like a well rounded mma fighter with a grab bag of tricks to apply in a strategy of winning a fight - albeit with a set of rules for safety and a scoring system.

In my friends application there are no rules, and winning or losing is life or death. Everything he does hand to hand is an attempt to quickly get back to something more lethal, be it his rifle, pistol or even a knife. In rare occasions he may not want to kill straight away, but would if the resistance seems potentially overwhelming otherwise.

Bjj, for all the arguments about vulnerability on the ground in a street fight, especially where you may get jumped, is even more prone to leaving vulnerabilities in a gun fight (or by any means necessary fight) to the death.

He explains that Krav Maga usually has quick and vicious hits that allow time to “stick and move” or “stick and draw a weapon”, find cover et cetera where grappling literally ties you up and you’re a potential sitting duck in an environment much more dynamic than even a bar or parking lot scrap in most cases.

If we revisit old Asian animal styles of fighting, what he describes almost explains an octopus style. Ink the shit out of the water and quickly use the distraction to work in to a more lethal position. If your ink happens to debilitate it’s a bonus, not a goal.

How so? It seems to me that knowing how to grapple is better than not knowing how to grapple even if guns or knives are involved. Contrary to what many believe, Brazilian Jiu Jitsu assumes two people on their feet. All rolls start from the feet unless there’s an injury or mat space issue.

Sport grappling often neglects this aspect entirely and some of those places call themselves BJJ.

My coach and I did occasional rolls with added implements. Owning the right hand in a roll was one but my favorite was the bell. Rolls start standing as normal but an additional win condition is present in the form of a bell hanging from the mantle pictured here.

If you ring the bell, you win. So it isn’t just tapping someone out and stuffing their grappling, it is also denying the weapon that’s over there.

I think this is one of the only times someone was actually taking pictures at the home mats. It was more often than not just my coach and I. The guy I’m tapping out was a stout fellow with high school wrestling but that was his first time doing BJJ.

Situations like that with new and possibly apprehensive students are another exception to starting from standing. In that case I began the roll on my back with him standing up to try whatever. I am a big fan of starting in bad positions if you don’t start standing.

I was probably around 270 there with the other guy around 220-230. I remember the caption I gave the photo when it got posted.

Brazilian Jiu Jitsu was developed thousands of years ago so that larger, stronger people can use superior technique to defeat smaller people and children.

I’ve never been in a gunfight myself so this is second hand information and I can’t give a first hand opinion.

It’s been explained to me that the ability to not engage at the level of tangling up in a bjj fashion, or at all, is more advantageous than being the best grappler. Your odds of getting shot/stabbed or otherwise killed are much higher if you tangle up vs doing something quick and forceful enough hand to hand as a last resort in order to get back to a weapon asap. And whoever grades this criteria values Krav Maga highly.

As mentioned, he says they do cross train, and Krav Maga is a sort of cross-training itself, but holds, submissions et cetera are adapted to needs in his environment so it’s not a pure form of bjj but cherry picked to feed the aforementioned desired outcome. I would assume this, in part, entails control of access to a weapon. But as I understand it the goal is still to maneuver away and get to your weapon - first. So hold him still long enough to gouge his eyes and then use the opportunity to regain your weapon and blow his brains out. A little bjj, a little Krav Maga style improvising, a lot of getting back to a gun asap. Again, I don’t know first hand and am regurgitating.

As a general comment, every style has its weakness. Even in sports and this is why athletes cross train. BJJ isn’t an impenetrable fortress, and leaves vulnerability. It is a solid pick though, I’m not bashing it.

It is always interesting to hear the theory behind something like that.

If a Krav Maga coach had legitimate experience in security or law enforcement, I’d definitely take a class but I don’t know of any local places that fit that bill for me. There’s definitely a few gyms charging money for Krav Maga instruction in the area.

Too far, too close is also a BJJ fundamental concept. Every roll begins with footwork until someone manages to close the distance and take the other down. Starting rolls from the feet was by far the most impactful part of BJJ training when it came to bouncing. Staying on your feet and in a good position while establishing a grip or clinch of some kind was sometimes all that was needed before someone cooled off.

My coach’s coach was also a bouncer in Maine’s rowdiest district and had all kinds of stuff to show me that’s off curriculum for BJJ but applicable for bouncing. Scenarios like various lead-ups to bar fights and ways to stay behind someone without going to a full clinch. It was super useful when you are walking, not dragging someone out. It keeps them moving towards the door without much spectacle and allows you to stay in a good position if the whistle blows. All lots of fun to game out on the mats under a coach who leads from the front in all ways possible.

At the end of the day there’s not really styles in that guy’s gym. There’s just stuff that works and can actually be trained, divided into a BJJ curriculum and a Muay Thai training path, which I never got into. People can train whatever they want to during open mats and some of the guys get into knife fighting, knife throwing, swords, nunchucks, you-name-it. My coach even showed me a little aikido, which has good drills for movement and falling.

It’s just that no class time is spent on anything other than the BJJ curriculum and the “too deadly to train” stuff isn’t a formal offering of the business. People might fuck around with odd stuff at open mats and sometimes palm strikes get agreed on. Generally speaking, the head coach is into just about everything related to fighting. He’s definitely the real deal when it comes to martial arts and his experience goes way beyond just BJJ.

I don’t know anybody else like him. He’s definitely a rare person that you won’t find even in most BJJ gyms.

It doesn’t really work quite like that.

My game certainly has plenty of holes, but you don’t get much of a chance with a legitimate BJJ black belt. Whatever is involved, don’t fuck up. Not even a little bit, which you will.

I would not feel confident at all going up against my coach or his coach armed with anything less than a firearm or a very large reaching weapon like a spear or longsword. I would not even be a little confident if I had a knife or bat and he didn’t. I might make a few holes in the man but he would likely own that knife in short order if I got close enough to use it.

Reason #9458 why good conduct and foot speed are the best self-defense techniques. You won’t know if you are dealing with an impenetrable fortress until you fail to penetrate the fortress.

I think for the vast majority of people bjj is fine. Most of us aren’t going to clear houses, drop in to a hostage rescue or high value target acquisition/elimination military operation et cetera and wouldn’t really know what it takes. If training bjj exclusively was the ticket I’m sure it would be happening.

In a self-defense/bar fight/drunk wrestling match with a bear I think bjj is a great choice by and large. There’s a reason is has become a dominant style in mma.

Regarding impenetrability, the top black belts in the world fight professionally and have been knocked unconscious by techniques from other styles. It’s a very strong and practical style of fighting but not impenetrable.

A black belt in nearly anything, assuming they legitimately train and aren’t just going to a fluff school, will be formidable. And will have weaknesses.

I believe it was Mike Tyson who said “everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face”. Or have their head bounced off concrete. Or whatever. Cross training will always hold value, and merits of a style will be situational to one degree or another. Even for the experts.

Pro fights are, as you pointed out, different beasts altogether. Those guys are all extremely dangerous and well-rounded. The guys knocking people out in an MMA ring are all highly skilled grapplers in 2024.

In the real world, there’s no this style beats that secret sauce. You can either do the thing, or not. That’s true for everyone. Training for strength, size, conditioning and skill just stacks the odds and it can absolutely reach a near 100 percent chance of coming out on top.

It’s really a matter of how much someone wants to stack the odds, how they go about achieving it and, of course, staying grounded in why they want to do it.

100% agree. And I think tight training in a chosen style, with the intent of training to practice like you’re going to play, is exactly how to stack odds in your favor. Muscle memory and instinct sort of collide and if bjj is the training some very effective outcomes will be brought about for sure.

I mentioned that I wrestled competitively and casually (in relation to wrestling) did some pre-bjj grappling which mixed a little judo in during the off-seasons.

Years later I found myself in a real world situation to use it all. Aside from youthful bar fights and dumb shit.

I was at a gas station pumping gas and minding my own business when I heard a scream for help from the other side of the building. I ran around to see what was happening and an old woman, probably in her 70’s, was being car jacked while people watched and filmed.

Without thinking I ran over to her car, reached in and grabbed the guy. Pulled him out and reverted to a take down I hadn’t used or practiced in years. An over/under hook with a hip bump and hard twist to the ground. Guy landed like a sack of potatoes with my 230 lb body on top of him and made a really weird noise while he kind of squished. Concrete is muuuch different than a mat.

Anyways, he still tried fight a little so I grabbed his dreadlocks, pulled his head up and put it back down. He just kind of laid there shaking a little. The police showed up, reviewed tapes and thanked me. Gave me a note for a work meeting I was going to as I would be late. (I had an employer at the time).

I didn’t think, didn’t plan, didn’t analyze, just acted and years old training came right back like day old muscle memory. I think this would be the outcome in most scenarios, and win or lose the training is going to be king. Which is why it’s important to train for a specific environment and application, especially combat military guys. Those unthinking decisions have to be right, and fast, for the scenario. This is also why you have to train hard and at speed/intensity for it to count.

And, bjj would’ve worked well too in my scenario. A choke or bar certainly would’ve done the job.

It sounds like a successful application of using your size and strength in a fight. It also sounds like a perfectly acceptable application of BJJ, because it worked. What you described would be coach-approved for sure, and nobody would tell you that you should have hit him with a this or a that unless maybe you walked right past an open barn door.

Even if that were true, it still worked. You did the thing, and you did it by knocking on the front door first. That’s good BJJ.

The goal of BJJ is never to simply get to an armbar, but you’re always hunting the choke. BJJ is a method of breaking a person down until you have control while minimizing your chance of harm. It is a destruction art with the end goal of resolving the fight in your favor.

The only reliable way of achieving this with your bare hands is rendering your opponent completely unconscious either through blood choke or strikes. To control some people, joints may need to be deranged and faces may need to be busted open before you can render them unconscious and harmless. That’s where an armbar can come into play. The entire suite of techniques are just different ways to break a person down in different situations, always hunting a nap for the other person.

Broken bones, gouged eyes, smashed testicles and other sources of pain are not reliable fight enders. Rendering the person unconscious is, and that’s always the ladder you’re trying to climb when training BJJ. Everything in BJJ is designed to lead up to unconsciousness and learning how to do that reliably is what dramatically increases the chances of controlling a person without harming them at all.

It just dawned on me that it is entirely possible that good Krav Maga schools, which I am sure exist, have become as watered-down and rare as good BJJ schools. The Krav Maga schools in my area don’t inspire confidence. LEO or security credentials coaching would, but all the cops I know of who train all train BJJ. There’s a cop-run school about 40 minutes away from me that I’ve heard is a pretty good room that hasn’t lost the plot.

I’m sure some folks have found my descriptions of training with my coach’s BJJ club to be exaggerated, but they’re not. It really is like a different martial art compared to many grappling schools that call themselves BJJ today. In addition to what I’ve already described, a lot of that distinction has to do with what ISN’T taught.

The berimbolo is a common “BJJ” move that is not on the curriculum there. Zero classroom hours are spent training them. It is an awe-inspiring movement that can work wonderfully in sport grappling but it has very little utility in combat. Plenty of people there know how to do them and will even pull them off in rolls, but it isn’t a training priority at all.

Many, many techniques that may get explored at all levels at other schools are simply not taught there. Hours and hours can be spent on such techniques, which can be fun and effective in grappling. Some places will call that BJJ, possibly giving people the impression that it’s the same basic thing that Royce Gracie used. It is not.

The berimbolo is not part of Brazilian Jiu Jitsu as I’ve come to understand it. This is because the technique is not part of the process of breaking someone down to render them unconscious. All of the coached mat time is oriented towards that goal in both gi and no gi. Gi techniques have broad carryover to normal clothes and no-gi.

If your goal is competing in sport grappling as soon as possible at as high of a level as possible, you’ll need to know this stuff.

What you’re explaining sounds true for most grappling/wrestling styles. Wrestling is probably the least “lethal” as it works on a point system and pins are a show of dominance vs forcing a choke or bar to the point of breaking, but it’s not hard to fill in the blanks and it does train excellent ground control, timing et cetera. It’s also an offensive style (with defense built in) and will control pace which I’ve found useful. I’m sure this can be done with bjj too. I can’t find it now but I read a statistic once that the vast majority of UFC champions have wrestling in their background, and then of course cross trained for breadth to fill gaps.

I think this is where military application, at least as I have heard it explained, breaks with traditionally taught and practiced bjj and is why certain aspects are cherry picked.

The point in most cases is to not only harm but to kill, and to do it efficiently. Instead of working through takedowns, holds, bars et cetera to a choke, you’re working back to a weapon. If you’re in a man to man handsy situation something went wrong and getting back to shooting vs harmlessly choking is the idea. And in this case, gouging eyes out or something painful to distract even if it doesn’t end the struggle creates the diversion and advantage necessary to “climb” back to killing. Plus it’s not 1:1 for them. They’re in full on gun fights and laying in the ground with someone in the middle of that simply isn’t ideal. This scenario isn’t likely to be experienced by the vast majority of us, so choking or otherwise subduing a drugged out, irate guy on a New York subway or something similar becomes the point of focus.

It is, to a degree. The difference with actual BJJ is that the goal is singularly focused towards unconsciousness and pathways to achieve it, which include pins of all kinds that you can also see in wrestling. Double-leg takedowns are absolutely part of the curriculum, as are other “wrestling” staples. Wrestling is just another form of sport grappling, and wrestlers can be real handfuls right out of the box. They just have that bad tendency to expose their back and other sport habits that are best discarded for non-sport purposes.

Wrestling also selects for a lot of elite athletes who go on to have a lot of success in MMA, but I would never recommend someone study wrestling over BJJ if their goal was handling violence with their bare hands and good coaches were present. I wouldn’t offer anyone advice about the best way to become an elite competitor in MMA or grappling, let alone how to best conduct SWAT tactics or something like that, but you can be certain that it will have a great deal of overlap with BJJ.

Mimicking the best guys on the planet can and does result in a lot of misplaced training priorities in BJJ. Just because the top guys are doing particular moves in high level sport grappling does not mean that you should spend your mat time focusing on getting to that spot to make that sequence possible. There’s better stuff for 95 percent of trainees to be working on. Keeping everyone on the rails and not losing the plot of mat time is, in my opinion, one of BJJ’s “secret sauces” that results in normal looking guys becoming absolute motherfuckers to tangle with.

The thing with BJJ is that becoming a black belt will make just about anything else you want to incorporate rather easy to do. Gouging someone’s eyes out is simple if you have them pinned in high mount or have broken them down to such a degree that they can’t use their arms to stop your fingers. BJJ can also be thought of as an ordering of priorities, and there’s always a higher priority than attempting an eye gouge.

Eye gouges aren’t trained because striking such a small area of the body isn’t particularly reliable compared to what else could be trained with the time. It is also hazardous to the trainee if done at full force.

Everything I’ve read from your description and elsewhere tells me that Krav may be a more expedient path to addressing a few specific scenarios involving weapons, if well-coached. That may be the case, but it is also the case that there’s plenty of guys selling an absolute lie under the sales banner of “Israeli Badass” or some variation of “Special Operator”, yet no Isreali Badasses or Special Operators are anywhere to be found teaching class. It’s the same as gyms who have a legendary Brazilian fighter’s name on the gi, who definitely was a vale tudo badass, but no legendary Brazilians are coaching any of the classes, where stuff like berimbolos are being taught.

BJJ is much, much more lethal than any other martial art in my opinion. If you orient your training towards achieving unconsciousness, well, you’re already there. Ending an unconscious person’s life can be done without any special training at all. Going from two people standing to rendering someone unconscious involves quite a bit that can happen, and BJJ addresses the majority of what that can be.

Furthermore, you don’t HAVE to go to the ground unless your choice is made for you. It is not particularly desirable in every situation, but it is common and useful enough to devote a massive amount of mat time to addressing. The guard is not a position that’s hunted, but a bad position that is common enough to address in depth. No sequences are taught where you actually TRY to get someone in your guard when you begin on your feet. There’s no reason to hunt for the guard unless you are in an even worse spot, like the bottom of mount.

At the end of the day, its all about training priorities. This stuff is all optional unless, of course, someone decides that today will be your mandatory fighting day.

I think this is the crux of everything. A trained and practiced ability to focus on ending the fight asap. 99% of the time it will be as simple as a take down and something to finish if not delivered sloppy. BJJ is certainly a strong avenue for this and like any martial art, along with increasing skill comes practice and experience as belt ranks are achieved and this is the real value. If the 80/20 rule applies to self-defense, and I believe it does, 80% of defense will come from 20% of a knowledge base. And how well that 20% is executed will determine outcome. Especially in a real life, “finish him” scenario vs strategically playing a clock to score points….and possibly finish definitively. The KISS principle.

I prefer grappling in some form myself. It allows strength and size to become advantageous vs standing and throwing punches or kicks. Especially 1:1. I’m aware wrestling is incomplete by design as a self-defense method, and again agree bjj can close some gaps here. But so can dominating the takedowns/ground long enough, or quick enough ideally, to break a jaw or smash a head in the vast majority of situations.

I hope I’m never in another fight. I’m 41 going on 42 and if I am it’s because someone is attacking me with who knows what intent. Not harming won’t cross my thoughts, but the tactical thread discussions might :wink:

I agree that Hall raging out in a bar would be more dangerous than Gracie in his prime. That amount of strength and size would be a force to be reckoned with. A world-class strongman or thrower, such as Ryan Crouser or Joe Kovacs, coming unglued would probably scare me more than any other type of person on this planet.

Hall would gas quickly… hopefully!

Any heavyweight athlete is just a handful right out of the box. Heavy people can be a lot to handle, even if they aren’t particularly athletic.

You do bring up an interesting question that’s worth shifting this old thread to.

Who is the last unhinged person on the planet you would want to be tasked with bouncing from a bar if you had three clones of yourself to help?

Pro strongmen and NFL heavyweights would probably be near the top of the list for me. I would put pro MMA heavyweights on that list too, but I like my team of four me’s odds against most active pro fighters I know of.

If I had to pick one completely unhinged person as the last person on the planet I would want to try to bounce, it might be a prime Brock Lesnar. Prime Tank Abbot is right up there too. There’s probably a few other fighters like that I’m not aware of. Pro strongmen and NFL power athletes next, then various heavyweight MMA guys. Any world-class heavyweight wrestler would definitely be in that mix, plus heavyweight olympic lifters and other strength athletes like you mentioned.

Powerlifters and bodybuilders… not nearly as worrying in general due to lower athleticism. We’d find a way with a lot of those guys.

As an aside, I find Brock Lesnar’s daughter to be extremely attractive in an unexpected kind of way. She’s quite a gal. I’d love to try and wrestle her out of a bar.

Force Recon Marines.

Any Special Forces unit guy is going to be a handful in any capacity for sure, but what struck me about the Force Recon Marines was this

In order to graduate from the program, they must endure a 3 mile march through tear gas.

In this situation, it’s not a question of how much damage they can do to me, but how much of MY damage they can withstand. Do I have the capacity to unleash the amount of damage necessary to overcome this person’s ability to overcome?

I knew a dude that was a 400lb Wing Chun practitioner that, when asked which martial arts celebrity he’d never want to fight, his answer was “Jackie Chan” for a similar reason. He might not be the biggest or the strongest, but he’s a dude that’s proven that he can take pretty much whatever you throw at him and keep on going.