He sounds like a good man. I know you weren’t looking for compliments but you did a great thing. One of the worst traits a person can have is ingratitude. This should be standard gym culture.
Sparring “hard”
This is partially true. UIL wrestling had seasons, and as mentioned I did freestyle and/or grappling in the off season. I also trained competitively, but I understand there are hobbyists who “train” for fun.
I agree that hobbyists can pillow train and learn a thing or two. I don’t think they should feel confident in a fight though, which is the context.
BJJ is the karate of the 80’s and early 90’s with McDojos everywhere, and if you don’t practice going 100% you won’t play at 100% either. You’ll end up in an embarrassing situation instead. Going for the arm bar! Oh wait no… is his jaw supposed to look like that!?
Also as mentioned, even if an aside in an earlier comment that was snipped out in a reply, I recognize that learning a new hold or move can be trained progressively, but if it doesn’t culminate in practicing at full speed it won’t do shit for you. It would be like taking a written driver license exam, playing in a simulator and then never getting behind the wheel of a car to practice in real life before obtaining the license and jumping on the freeway.
In the specific scenario you were responding to about going easy on women, if they’re just playing in a powderpuff gym then sure. Top rope body slamming the shit out them is probably excessive. If they’re there to be good at bjj, and possibly even learn some self defense, not taking them to a real place of experience is a disservice.
The gap in skill and experience is the issue. So you close the gap… by training with deliberate intensity.
Just like “lifting hard”, this notion has different meanings to different people, and that’s okay. The first BJJ school I trained at was so different from my eventual coach’s methodology that I consider them to be entirely different martial arts. They have common elements, like submissions and escapes on the ground, but the curriculum, culture and focus of the mat time was quite different.
And that’s okay. Zecarlo commented in the past that a knee on the neck would be cause to start a fight on the mats he trains on. That may be true, but on other mats a knee can end up just about anywhere at times and this is considered normal.
Similarly, my coach was banned from the closest gym to me. I have a hard time believing that any sort of misconduct was involved, at least by my standards of mat conduct learned from the area’s most competent martial artists. I wasn’t there, but I suspect his only mistake was practicing Brazilian Jiu Jitsu at a gym that had BJJ on the sign. He is easily able to run through every single person at that gym without skipping a round or even breaking much of a sweat.
I get it, a 5’9" brown belt wrecking ball making everyone look dumb is kinda bad for business, but it also comes down to culture and coaching. My friend and I showed up to a class there a few years after that went down. He’s a blue belt from my coach’s coach and was a 5-0 amateur light heavyweight and the the #1 ranked LHW amateur in New England Fights (NEF) before an injury put a stop to MMA competition. He also worked as a bouncer at the same bar I did, but not long enough for his number to ever get called on shift.
His local MMA success put a target on his back, and being affiliated with that gym AND being a well-known local bouncer put a target on mine. He left with a cracked rib from a drill and I left with a swollen jaw from a sloppy Ezekiel attempt that I chose to ride out rather than tap to.
The irony of this is that I completely trust the entire coaching staff at my coach’s gym to do anything they want to try on me, knowing that nothing worse than bruising will come of it. The lower belts are also very well-coached and I’ve never heard of someone breaking a rib during a drill and no blue belt has ever cranked full-force on an Ezekiel choke that’s clearly not in at all. I’ve certainly never done anything like that to anyone. Pressure? Sure, I’ve given lots of that.
My only serious mat injury also came on a more “polite” mat, coached by a decent grappler with a black belt around his waist and the name of a legendary Brazilian grappler on the back of his gi. This Brazilian had only been to our corner of Maine a couple of times for “seminars” and he most definitely is a very legitimate BJJ black belt, but he has basically franchised his name out to gyms all across the world. He doesn’t actually coach any of the people with his name on the back of their gi’s.
Like all physical endeavors, building up our capability to handle violence with our bare hands is optional. You can build that capability without ever stepping foot on the mats and you can step foot on the mats without ever building any real capability to handle violence.
Having coaches who understand this will help you meet your goals, no matter what they are. I think the cat is out of the bag when it comes to BJJ branding and everyone gets to use it now, but the fact of the matter remains. Brazilian Jiu Jitsu became an appealing martial art in the USA because of its demonstrated effectiveness in contrived but still realistic scenarios in the mid 90’s.
Since then, many gyms have capitalized on the brutally effective BJJ practitioners of that era, selling customers the idea that they will teach it to you and impart that capability to their students. Royce Gracie is still the sales pitch.
I still recall the conversation when I was instructed to bring the pressure on everyone with a colored belt at that gym (not other gyms). This was not long after I began training with him, having already gotten 3 stripes on my white belt from my first coach who wanted me to be gentle with almost all of my training partners.
“twojar, you need to smash more.”
“Yes but what about guys like Gage (very small blue belt, maybe 130lbs)?”
“Smash him”.
“Even Julie?”
“Saaa-mash”
“But what about…”
“Smash them.”
Of course, he already knew that I wasn’t a mat bully, and he was guiding me towards a sparring approach that would be more beneficial for me and more beneficial to the other students at that particular club.
I remember not long after that conversation being caught in an armbar from the guard by Gage during a round where I brought the smash and positionally dominated the entire round. I was glad to provide him with that moment because he got it fair and square on me. I’m pretty sure he went home and fucked his girlfriend that night. The man was riding pretty high. That training success doesn’t happen for Gabe if I just go easy on him instead of, say, letting him carry my weight in a stack pass. Besides, he knows the situation and what he needs to do to make the pressure stop.
Like all things you may spend your money on, buyer beware. BJJ is now full of the equivalent of filter-enhanced and photoshopped lifting coaches who train with fake plates. And that may be exactly the type of gym people like to train in for their goals and there’s nothing wrong with that.
For the untrained t-nation reader who is likely to have significant physical advantages when stepping on a martial arts mat, I suggest a simple test if you’re wondering whether or not they are legitimate.
Can they defend themselves against me?
If so, you can probably learn something there.
Keeping the thread topic merged with training, here’s my coach’s coach explaining his extremely high standard for a Brazilian Jiu Jitsu black belt. The Fighter’s Fortitude Tank Abbot was talking about on the JRE podcast is not just an element of being a black belt, it is THE distinguishing element.
The coach is the guy who’s just come back from near-death last October, making it abundantly clear that these ideas are a lot more than just words he spoke four years ago. This is a room full of very dangerous people created by him, and the number of dangerous people has continued to mushroom out since then.
Eli is a complete wrecking ball and my only hope of prevailing in a fight to the death with him would be to stay on my feet and knock him out, which wouldn’t be easy to do at all. I would have to do it before I make a fatal mistake he can decisively capitalize on, and I would likely make many such mistakes and he would make very few.
I was always grateful for the opportunities to test myself on many of the people in this video without feeling like I need to hold back at all. That’s what rolling is for everyone, not just me. Of course it isn’t full force 100 percent of the time. What you see in this video is the entire room going at “default” rolling intensity with the test-taker, which is to say that you bring the smash.
As an addendum to my latest multi-part screed about the lack of truth in BJJ advertising, I’d like to point out that even though I am obviously biased, I still think BJJ with less focus on combat is a perfectly good use of mat time for most people. It certainly was for me. In fact, I would go so far as to say that making BJJ less realistic is a good thing.
You can’t really argue with the good outcome, which is a lot of people discovering that grappling is something they enjoy that can be pursued in a lot of different directions towards a variety of different goals. Recreational grappling outside of student athletics barely existed in the USA 30 years ago, and now it is everywhere. That’s a good option for people to have.
So is learning Brazilian Jiu Jitsu, which is a robust system of self-defense.
Apparently I’ve gone from experimenting to full fledged research, as I just signed up for another comp, haha. Apparently all it takes to sucker me is to offer a discount for early sign up. 31 Aug, and I get to move up a division since I won the novice division last time.
That will be interesting. Is the idea still to go in without any mat time to prepare?
Its presently my only option. Although there is a chance I could hit up a local spot for a roll between now and then.
Beautiful ending on that vid too there @twojarslave thanks for the share.
As a lightweight the ‘avoid, run, flee’ would be my modus operandi as opposed to engaging in a fight. However having started BJJ in recent months for the very reason’s you’ve outlined above, primarily self defense (plus getting junior into it early was the intent). Wish I started years ago!
I’m very rarely the larger guy when rolling, so the building of defensive skills is a must, being often outmuscled/outsized with guys larger and heavier than me.
@raven78 I’m glad you enjoyed the video. There are guys in that gym who’ve been brown belts for over 10 years now. They’d be black belts almost anywhere else, but not there because they haven’t passed the test.
I’m also really glad to hear you began training for you and your kid. I’m sure you’ll both be deranging joints and choking fools in no time.
@T3hPwnisher Tag me if you post the video. That’ll be a fun watch and pertinent to this thread. I’ll be interested in what kind of competitor you run into in the next division up. It is hard to gauge someone’s skill level looking at one match with a very unusually athletic person who stubbornly refuses to do the jiu jitsu thing you’re supposed to do.
I’ve seen blue and purple belts (from other schools, not my coach’s) look downright inept trying to roll with a 20-something guy who had a little bit of Judo but was a strong, serious lifter with pretty good conditioning. He’s a guy who can just make you work really hard to contain him, especially no gi. Always active.
A 200lb blue belt from my coach’s school could probably solve your riddle in under five minutes, but maybe not. There’s only one way you can ever know the answer to these things.
I’ve definitely been made to feel inept by those will skill before, which is ideally how it SHOULD go, but if nothing else I’m excited just to get some live resistance.
I’ll definitely grab some video. My kid is most likely going to be my coach again, which is always good for a laugh when I point them out to the judges.
Belts are an arbitrary ranking and unique to each gym. In reality, you can either do the thing, or not.
I felt a lot better about my many moments of ineptitude the first time I watched my coach dissect an active Bellator pro fighter, making him look just as inept as me. All I could ever attain were brief moments in the sun before he could find a response and turn it into disaster for me. Every single time.
It can be very similar to The Matrix when you’re rolling with a wizard.
“No.”
Awesome, LOL.
My wife was raised on a dairy farm. As a City-boy found it fascinating.
Watched a Holstein Bull lift the front of a tractor with his head. Also saw one get his head caught just bend the steel fence to get out. I am out…
Bull or Steer? It would be like grappling with a Buick…
Question I have, once the injuries mount and the orthopedic says no more Judo with you neck arthritis and stenosis. What do you do?
Alot of this conversation is great for young guys or old guys who are perfectly healthy. You start pushing 55 and all of a sudden, the neck don’t work, the right knee don’t work, and you can’t hear out of your left ear worth a shit. Now what… I would LOVE to see a BJJ course specifically for people that physically can’t do it.
I tried Krav Maga for a while, no matter how many times you talk to the instructor, you get into class it is the same…
So, hopefully you guys don’t get there. If you don’t more power to you! But, I would wager if you lived your lives like the conversations on this board, it is coming… Jumping out of planes in the military seemed like a great idea at 22, but my knees at 61 may disagree…
You defend yourself, same as any healthy person. I don’t hang my self-defense hat on my size, strength or bare-handed martial arts training. I don’t work bar security anymore, so I protect myself with good conduct and a concealed firearm. It should be a good plan for my remaining years as long as I have use of my mind and upper limbs.
If you’re training around injuries or disabilities, defend yourself by tapping out before any further injury takes place. Same idea as continuing to lift as you get older and accumulate injuries. Continue the pursuit if you want to pursue it, maintaining awareness of your own limitations and working around them. If that limitation is a debilitating case of spinal stenosis, you may have to tap out of grappling training altogether.
This discussion began by assuming a physical advantage, so most of the thread simply isn’t applicable to handicapped people. I wouldn’t recommend someone with arthritis attempt to control a man by his face with a beard grab.
As far as BJJ training and injury/age goes, it isn’t inherently dangerous. You may not have the entire menu of techniques available to you as you get older, but that’s often true for young and healthy trainees. You work with what you have and, most importantly, what you can make work.
If you look at the instagram videos I linked upthread you can see people training around handicaps with a good amount of intensity. A conversation with your coach, a conversation with your training partner before a roll and doing your own part to tap out if you’re in danger is enough to train around many injuries or disabilities.
A one legged man can still move across 100 meters as quickly as he can, even though he’ll never compete with Usain Bolt. BJJ is no different. A young man with cerebral palsy used to train at the gym in the video, doing his best with what he could work with just like everyone else. He competed in the men’s white belt class and made a very good showing on the mats that day, never once mentioning his obvious disability. He just went to work and made plenty of stuff work on his competition. He was not an easy submission.
Krav Maga doesn’t have any practical appeal to me. I’m sure they have some good ideas about violence and some good plans for a fight. The problem with their methodology is the lack of pressure testing to know if the plan is any good or not.
How do you know if you’re training under a Krav Maga master? A certificate on the wall? How do you know if you’re becoming more capable of handling violence under Krav Maga instruction? Also a certificate?
Thanks. I do get what you are saying. Been doing it for 40+ years, you make do and improvise. I don’t jump out of planes anymore or am much more situationally aware. Sorry, if off subject.
As for Krav, it is/was useful. It does give the full-on speed and intensity of an attack and reacting to it. Does train for situational awareness and reactions. Trains different useful skills. I did find it useful and a nice complement to combative skills. I can see why Krav does not do well in MMA and such, not really designed for that. It is more to teach large numbers of any age skills that can help you survive, not get in the octagon.
As for “Masters”, the guys I used were from Israel and had training with the Israeli Military and Police. Krav does have some appeal to train for an actual street fight and how to survive. I did not find it as competition for BJJ or other martial arts. It is more in line with self-defense.
BJJ is 100 percent oriented around self defense. Many schools advertise themselves as BJJ, but only offer instruction in sport grappling.
I can gauge the competence of an instructor or individual students by the measurable outcomes against a resisting opponent. This, coincidentally, is how competence in self defense is made apparent outside the gym. You either do the thing and come out on top of a struggle, or not.
Outcomes in sparring is also how I measure my own competence and growth. I either could do the thing, or not.
Bringing this back to the original subject, could a 200 lb athletic unit or a 270 lb bouncer with a 600+ lb deadlift show up to a Krav Maga mat and be completely neutralized in a full force sparring scenario?
If so, it would make me a believer in Krav because that mat outcome is what convinced me that bjj is worth training.
Or would that person be told that it isn’t safe for the coach to render them harmless right then, right there because the techniques are too effective to train?