I train abs 4x a week. 2 high rep (reps such as 100 or 50 or so) days without weight, then I also have 2 lower rep days where I do movements with weight. I do low rep monday, then high rep tuesday, rest wednesday, then low rep thursday, and then high rep friday. My question is will using heavy weights or any weights make me have big or “fat” abs because of so much muscle growth in my abdominal area.
Using heavy resistance to train abs will “thicken” your waist with additional muscle mass just like any other weight trained muscle…when using heavy resistance to train abs, use enough training frequency to bring out the thickness you desire…cut back when ab developement you desire is obtained.
There is no reason to train the abs 4xs a week; they are muscles too…imagine training chest 4-days-a-week thinking it’s going to do you any good…it won’t. Train them 1-2 times a week. 5 reps and under will get them looking “cut” while 8-12 will fill them out (thicken, as Heb put it). Anything over 25 is a waste of time.
“Anything over 25 is a waste of time.” I’m surprised that you can make a statement like this as if it is written in stone. Contrary to your belief, there are benefits of training with high-reps for the abdominals, particularly for athletes (the original poster did not state what his goals were). Infact if I’m not mistaken, Coach Davies and Charlie Francis are two well known coaches who employ a large volume of ab-work using high reps. The latter uses 500-1000 reps per day, 6 days a week. And as far as bodybuilding goes, abdominals are not ‘just another muscle’. If that was the case, training the calves with 5 reps or less would give you the same kind of results that training your chest with 5 reps would. Different muscles have different fibre make-ups and therefore will respond better to different TUT protocols. (That is why an extremely high volume program like Poliquin’s Luke Sauders routine has given such good results according to most people who have done it).
I do, and will continue to reply to posters from a bodybuilding perspective (unless otherwise stated in the original post); this is, afterall, a bodybuilding forum.
Next, while I do believe that >25 reps do have their place; it's certainly not something you plan for in your weekly routine...maybe once every few months to break a plateau. And since the poster was talking about his "normal" ab routine, I responded in that context. We can talk about special situations on another thread.
I agree with Heb on the overtraining on the abs point as far as body building goes. Use your stomach in things like chin ups and deadlifts and basically everything else you do and then train them twice a week. Also you have to know your body type. I’m the kind of person who if lays off, the waist returns to close to its original size. If you’re that body type, don’t be afraid to go with heavier weight. otherwise I’d watch yourself… also if you’re doing this for aesthetic reasons, a change in BF might help you out better. I agree though–a good solid 7 reps if done in a controlled manner can really rip you.
-Marc
Who declared this a bodybuilding forum?
To Joel Marion
I agree with you that different muscles have different fiber make-ups. Muscles such as calves and abs which we use everyday extensively have what one would call a great endurance to work loads. For all of you I am a Shot Putter and will be in the NCAA next year. I’m not fat like the rest I stay very lean, quick, and have great technique so i beat out the fatties. Working in a gym for a year now has helped me here every philosophy on weight training. I must agree that low and high rep days are needed in order to not only define but strengthen the core.
Bodybuilding Forum!?
I thought this was a place for athletes of all spectrums to discuss issues and learn.
I agree with Heb tantalos and Joel but it depends on the individuals goal. If your a triathlete, I don’t see the benefit of training your abs w/ lots of volume to make the abdominals more muscular and powerful. They would need to focus on endurance. Football players on the other hand would need powerful abs and should train using weights with low reps and lots of volume.
I’m gonna have to chime in too regarding, “afterall this is a bodybuilding forum.” BS! There are just as much athletic related posts on this forum as bodybuilding, not to mention powerlifting posts. Sure there are alot of people on this forum who are only concerned with looks, but I think there are just as many people, if not more who are concerned with functional strength speed and performance.
The title of the forum is “Training and Nutrition” not “Bodybuilding.” Trainging is a pretty broad area.
Considering that most of the posts here are about “getting huge”, or “getting ripped”, I would say that it is predominantly a bodybuilding site. So if you have other needs, you better include that info in your post.
Damn right!
THIS IS A TRAINING FORUM , THIS SITE IS NOT JUST FOR BODY BUILDING , BUT FOR WEIGHT LIFTING IN GENERAL
No need to scream. Kill the caps. - Mod
No shit.
You seem to be missing the point, if a poster does not give information about his training goals, then it will assumed that he is tying to "get ripped" or "get huge". What are we supposed to assume, he's into girls field hockey?
Post your name next time.
ko
Given that last post, I couldn’t help but reply. I’m a high school field hockey player who is interested in “toning” up my unshaven, cottage cheese thunder thighs so that I can look good in my skirt. Would 5x5 work for me?
Sorry, buddy; after a ten-hour shift at work, I just couldn’t resist.
-Eric Cressey
Just to set things straight, the only ‘anonymous’ post by me was the first one by ‘to joel marion’. The other anonymous posts were by other people. Yes I am using an anonymous name because I know that I would just get flamed to hell for saying something that is against what the mighty forum ‘veterans’ think.
ko I have read a lot of what you posted in the past and have found your knowledge very useful, particularly on the subject of nutrition.
Now the point is not whether this is a bodybuilding forum or not. I was just giving another point of view on the subject of abdominal training. Joel Marion seems to think that ‘anything over 25 reps is a waste of time’. Are we always supposed to take Joel’s word as the law? I don’t think so. Even from an aesthetic point of view, training with high volume (high sets/reps) and more frequency (more times a week) can have benefits for bodybuilders. It seems like the latest training ‘fad’ that everyone believes is that abdominal training for bodybuilders must be high in intensity and low in volume to achieve hypertrophy simply because it is ‘just another muscle’.
Now, stimulating the abdominals with high intensity and low volume may have benefits but that is not to say that high volume is a waste of time. Read some papers on physiology and you will find that supporting muscles such as the muscles in the abdominal group are mainly made of slow twitch muscle fibres. Slow twich muscle fibres are best suited for low intensity, high volume/frequency training due to their less contractive nature and their faster recovery properties. The abdominals are much like the calf muscles in their fibre make-up which is why most calf programs that work well are very high volume/frequency programs (eg. Luke Sauders and Ian King’s calf program).
This is not to say that high intensity, low volume training will not give hypertrophy or strength increases for your abdominals. In weight training you must keep an open mind for ideas and I think Joel Marion is getting a little carried away with his beliefs. The way he talked about 5x5 in that original Meltdown thread reminds me of Mike Mentzer! Joel, I'm sure there are many people that enjoy your ideas on training and I thought your article on 5x5 was refreshing, but your way is not the only way. Just because you won an award in Body for Life doesn't automatically qualify you to be the number one mind in bodybuilding! Honestly, at your current size I don't know how you can be so sure that what you say will work. Maybe you should try some of your techniques on yourself and check the results before advocating them as the best and only way to train.
To Mr. Anonymous- Ever win 25 grand for your body? Every had an article published in T-mag? Didn’t think so. Shut the fuck up and stick to the discussion and not the insults. You were doing fine with your arguments then you lost it by attempting to insult Joel. You came off like a jealous little boy.
This is exactly what I mean. Some people seem to think that all you have to do is win some BFL challenge and get an article posted on T-Mag to be known as an expert on the topic. I don’t even really respect the whole BFL Challenge concept and I certainly do not hail someone as a great bodybuilder just for winning some prize money in that contest. If half the BFL winners actually smiled, flexed properly, oiled up and took their ‘Before’ photos under some decent lighting, maybe the winners would appear at least somewhat genuine. Seems to me like most of the contestants didn’t just learn how to build a better body during the challenge, they also discovered how to pose and look good for the camera!
My last comment about Joel was not an insult. While harsh, it was merely my opinion on him. I can see how you may have felt insulted by what I said - but like you, I am entitled to my own opinion. Personally I would find it a lot easier to believe someone’s training ideas if they had first applied it to themselves first. I don’t want to ‘insult’ anyone again, but lets put it this way - if you were a 100m sprinter, would you be so eager accept track training advice from someone who has never ran faster than 13.00s?
I am not at all insulted by what you have said. Perhaps I should ‘Shut the fuck up’ because I have never won 25 grand for my body. I beg to differ! I have competed in my younger days (and yes, I have won money for it) but that doesn’t mean you should take what advice I give about training to be the only way!
Since you’re a thrower, make sure you train your core hard, heavy and with explosion. As long as you’re recovering fine, then train your core 4 days a week. Remember, you’re a competitive athlete, not a bodybuilder. If you start training like a bodybuilder your performance will most likely suffer.