[quote]new2training wrote:
Merry Christmas!
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Merry Christmas and a happy New Year to you, too!
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Of course it’s wrong to molest my mom in a coma[/quote]
Why is it wrong? According to your own reasoning, there’s no victim here.
Defend what? Why are you intervening when, following your logic, a completely acceptable act is taking place. Can’t you just wait your turn?
Well, that may be, but no one is taking anything here. In fact, it’s likely the guy will leave a little something extra with your mom.
How come your previous assertions don’t work here? Your comatose mom, like the 11 year old girl, both can’t know they’re victims. No victim, no crime. You’ve been arguing that for 5 or 6 pages now. Explain to me how it can be wrong to take advantage of your mom in a coma, but not wrong to take advantage of an 11 year old girl? If anything, your mom, being in a coma, is even less aware of her condition than the 11 year old. She’s even less of a victim. Why are you suddenly disagreeing with the very point you’ve been supporting?
[quote]pookie wrote:
Why are you suddenly disagreeing with the very point you’ve been supporting?
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Because its my mom and she’s a relative.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Fair enough.
I see there is much middle ground here.
Still, we have to pick the important issues in dealing with the arabic world.
Just ranting against everything is counterproductive. Sadly, marrying a child is definitely one such thing.
A whole slew of problems stem from the simple fact that women are second rate persons in the Islamic world. That and oversensitivity to anything that can be interpreted in the slightest way as an insult to their primitive religion.
I’d concentrate on getting the women equal rights with men. The religion part will follow or mellow away by itself after. Primitive societies are always the most religious ones. The countries with the highest proportions of non-practicing theists or outright atheists are all considered “advanced,” modern nations.
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Let me assure you: While promoting equal rights is important, the marriage thing is, at least for now, a dead end.
Why?
Because, from a primitve point of view, he is doing her a favour. Now she has a place in society, a future and a family and doesn’t have to beg or even prostitute herself.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Fair enough.
I see there is much middle ground here.
Still, we have to pick the important issues in dealing with the arabic world.
Just ranting against everything is counterproductive. Sadly, marrying a child is definitely one such thing. [/quote]
Afghans are not Arabs.
[quote]pookie wrote:
How come your previous assertions don’t work here? Your comatose mom, like the 11 year old girl, both can’t know they’re victims. No victim, no crime. You’ve been arguing that for 5 or 6 pages now. Explain to me how it can be wrong to take advantage of your mom in a coma, but not wrong to take advantage of an 11 year old girl? If anything, your mom, being in a coma, is even less aware of her condition than the 11 year old. She’s even less of a victim. Why are you suddenly disagreeing with the very point you’ve been supporting?
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Making someone a victim is not what is immoral; though it can be under certain circumstances – viz. mental anguish. People become victims when they are harmed or forced into actions that that are not voluntary.
That is the real litmus test for moral interaction in my opinion.
In the case of this marriage one would have to prove the exchange was not mutual or the girl is being harmed for it to be considered immoral. If the girl was coerced or forced against her will then indeed it is wrong. Based on the information given in the article I could not discern that.
In the case of raping a comatose victim that is most certainly not voluntary.
[quote]pookie wrote:
No, I think it’s just fine with a lowercase letter. A capital letter lends it an undeserved air of respectability. [/quote]
Explain to me your logic here. Also, why you try to pass Afghan for Arabs when you know they are not?
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
…Because, from a primitve point of view, he is doing her a favour. Now she has a place in society, a future and a family and doesn’t have to beg or even prostitute herself.[/quote]
It is more likely she comes from a powerful family and this wedding is to draw these families together.
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
…Because, from a primitve point of view, he is doing her a favour. Now she has a place in society, a future and a family and doesn’t have to beg or even prostitute herself.
It is more likely she comes from a powerful family and this wedding is to draw these families together.[/quote]
or she comes from an alien species and isn’t really a human child.
what else can we speculate?
“what else can we speculate?”
That you would have sex with an 11 year old.
[quote]dk44 wrote:
“what else can we speculate?”
That you would have sex with an 11 year old.[/quote]
that would fall under the category of speculation.
[quote]lixy wrote:
pookie wrote:
No, I think it’s just fine with a lowercase letter. A capital letter lends it an undeserved air of respectability.
Explain to me your logic here. Also, why you try to pass Afghan for Arabs when you know they are not?[/quote]
Because they’re both subsets of “primitives who treat women like shit.”
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Because, from a primitve point of view, he is doing her a favour. Now she has a place in society, a future and a family and doesn’t have to beg or even prostitute herself.[/quote]
That shouldn’t prevent us from pointing out that a society that offers its women a choice between prostitution or childhood marriage as career choices has somewhat more than a few shortcomings.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Making someone a victim is not what is immoral; though it can be under certain circumstances – viz. mental anguish.[/quote]
Please give me an example where making someone a victim is morally sound.
That’s exactly what I’ve been arguing.
No shit.
All you need to understand now is that an eleven year old kid is unable to “volunteer” in an informed manner into such an arrangement. THAT is why it’s wrong. If all the parties involved were willing to wait a few more years, then she could marry entirely of her own accord, or at least accept the proposed burden having properly evaluated everything the situation entails. At 11? Not a chance.
Or, if you prefer, look at it this way: 11 year olds don’t go out and get married on their own. It’s obvious that the marriage was arranged between the man and her parents. In that case, her will counts for naught. Even if her parents convinced her that it’s all for the best, we get back to the fact that an 11 year old lacks the maturity required to acquiesce to such an arrangment.
It seems we finally got a few gears turning in there…
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
…Because, from a primitve point of view, he is doing her a favour. Now she has a place in society, a future and a family and doesn’t have to beg or even prostitute herself.
It is more likely she comes from a powerful family and this wedding is to draw these families together.[/quote]
Actually, you’re totally wrong here
First, the girl was sold and her parents were dirt poor.
Second, an arranged marriage to bring powerful clans together is quite rare these days. Poor people have no wedding policy, they just try to wed as good/secure as possible within their clan/caste.
Third, even if it would be true, an arranged marriage is a vital part of such a society. Condemning it would be doubly-shortsighted and would prove only more ignorance on our side.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Because, from a primitve point of view, he is doing her a favour. Now she has a place in society, a future and a family and doesn’t have to beg or even prostitute herself.
That shouldn’t prevent us from pointing out that a society that offers its women a choice between prostitution or childhood marriage as career choices has somewhat more than a few shortcomings.
[/quote]
I concur whole-hearted.
But it’s education we must concentrate on. Muhammed probably can’t read nor write. Why should he allow to let his young wife wander 10 km to a school few times per week? This must change. We can show him that a literate wife can be more useful and bring in more cash.
That way, in two to three generations, the society might change from within- Criticizing his choice of women, however, will do little to make him (as he and his fellow men are the rulers) abandon his culture. he will just think that the westerners are imperialistic asses.
Sure way to heat up the debate, as you undoubtly know.
She was 6 when he wed her and she became his favorite wife. I dimly recall she was 9 when he took her (no kidding), but I may have to look it up, depending on what Lixy will tell us.
As a muslim, this is, of course, a great argument for wdding children.
[quote]Chushin wrote:
Apologies for the hijack, but a couple of (sincere) questions:
- I’m assuming it’s true that Islam’s Prophet had one or more child brides. Is this indeed a fact? [/quote]
It is indeed true that Mohammed had indeed what would be perceived today as a “child bride”. Not brides, but one! Her name is Aisha, and the age at which they got married is a very heated topic among Muslim scholars and historians. The age of marriage fluctuates between 6 and 9, and the age at which it was consummated ranges from 10 to 19. Aisha was the daughter of the first male Muslim, and there is absolutely no doubt that it was her father who insisted upon the marriage to ensure their clans got united.
So before any of you jumps on the issue, let me remind you that Mohammed’s first wife was 40 and he married her at age 25. His second wife was 55, and most of his subsequent wives were widows. Marrying a widow (or divorced) woman is highly rewarded in Islam because it ensures someone will take care of the woman’s needs (both financial and physical) in matrimony.
I don’t think so. In fact, the only majority-Muslim country where such an aberration could occur legally is Saudi Arabia (hint hint).
Islam has nothing to do with the age at which people marry. It is connected with the prevailing culture, fertility, availability, and other factors.
If one studies the issue carefully, it becomes obvious that “underage” marriages are almost exclusively found in poor regions of poor countries. It is about survival and the lack of prospect pushes people to push their daughters to marry early on, because in a society with no make-up or plastic surgeons, younger girls are more likely to attract rich and affluent husbands than their older siblings.
Hope this answers your questions.