[quote]pookie wrote:
Telling her she’s a victim would change little to the situation, as she’s too young to understand what she’s a victim of and why.
[/quote]
What does age have to do with victimization? Once a victim always a victim.
We can definitely set the example we want others to live by by trading and exchanging with them. What they decide to do is up to them and we have no moral authority to change it by force or coercion.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Sure. But how did you learn it to be right or wrong? Before you learned it was it right or wrong as you understood it and could it be considered moral or immoral?[/quote]
Morals can be deduced from the common experience of being human. Normal (ie, not mentally ill) person do not like pain and anguish. Actions that cause unnecessary pain and anguish to others can be seen as being “evil” or “immoral.”
In this case, the girl is being forced into a situation that she isn’t ready to deal with. At 11, she cannot possible understand all the various ramifications of an adult relationship. Even if she consents, she’s not doing so while fully informed. The man is taking advantage of her; and that his culture sees it as “normal” (because women are considered on the same level as cattle and possessions) does not make it “right” or “moral.”
What you’re trying to do here is not relativism; it’s rationalization. Some situation are hard to decide and lend themselves to various opinions - sometimes diametrically opposed opinions - from reasonable people. But here, there’s no way to “relativize” this relationship to make it appear fair and equal for all parties involved. Ergo, it’s wrong. Cultural mores doesn’t make it right; no more that slavery was right when it was culturally acceptable.
[quote]pookie wrote:
She should be able to purchase firearms, alcohol, tobacco; drive a car and get a job where she might have to make decisions that directly impact your life. [/quote]
To be fair, kids are able to purchase alcohol and tobacco in many third world countries. Many of them are able - ney, forced - to get jobs.
[quote]lixy wrote:
To be fair, kids are able to purchase alcohol and tobacco in many third world countries. Many of them are able - ney, forced - to get jobs.[/quote]
The fact that those societies are third world countries should tell you something.
Any society that doesn’t value and protect its children is doomed to mediocrity before eventually disappearing.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Ergo, it’s wrong. Cultural mores doesn’t make it right; no more that slavery was right when it was culturally acceptable.
[/quote]
Who decided that causing someone else pain was wrong? How does one know if something is moral or immoral without a definition? Morality is nothing more than acceptable action.
Everything one consciously does involves rationalization. Relativism isn’t an action therefore what you say doesn’t make sense. Relativism is only a personal valuation and has nothing to do with how one arrives at those values – such as through rationalization, for example.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Outside of Sharia Law, having sex,(forcing sex, actually) with an unwilling participant is rape! [/quote]
Well, if she’s forced then that’d be obviously considered rape. I was under the impression that it was not the case here.
If you got details supporting your hypothesis, do share. Till then, what makes you think the guy is going to have sex with her, let alone rape her? He could be impotent. He could have married her just to provide a roof and meals to the kid. It’s a long shot, but it’s certainly not something you can rule out.
So, if you are sure the girl is unwilling and is forced into having sex with the dude, then that’ll be rape. But until you can substantiate that, I’ll continue to consider it a condemnable marriage. We are on the same side here and I don’t see why you’re attacking me for not applying the term rape in this case. Long ago, people matured much quicker, lived a lot less, and marrying as soon as one hit puberty was common. Today, things have changed. Most 18 years old are childish and silly. Marrying young is often an irresponsible act. Many poor families resort to marrying their girls quite young because they view it as the best thing for their daughters. It’s certainly not an easy choice, but it often comes down to slaving in the fields and sweatshops, prostitution, or marriage.
Now that this is out of the way, why the heck did you drag Islam into this?
[quote]pookie wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Well there is little use in debating it unless you are willing to storm the gates and “rescue” these “poor, oppressed” people and take them from everything they have ever known because you feel it is in their “best interest” to become westernized.
Ridiculous pseudo-intellectual drivel as usual. There is middle ground between blind cowardly acceptance and “storm the gate” genocidal solutions. Like denouncing and condemning acts that are objectively wrong.
Look at the Saudi rape case that got pardonned by their king this week. International outrage and denounciation surely played a large part in the king’s decision. It’s still a drop in the ocean, but solutions involving no violence are possible.
That to me seems just as wrong…
That’s because it is. Think it through.
You have your beliefs and they have theirs and it is all relative to what you “know”.
Pure Grade-A bullshit. Children cannot enter into deals/marriages/contracts on an equal footing with adults; there are no cultures where 11 years old kids are as mature and responsible as older adults. It’s not relative to anything, it’s simply a fact.[/quote]
I can’t add anything to Pookie’s drubbing of the hapless Lifticus - but I repeat myself - but as a corollary: there is no logical reason that just because a moral law exists and a barbarian society is breaking it means we have to move in, bust some heads, and impose it. We may choose to or not - but whether we decide to or not has no bearing on whether the moral rule exists.
Oh, and let’s not forget - this is the same Lifticus that believes in moral relatvism and natural law. Ridiculous pseudo-intellectual drivel is an understatement.
With a modern and “enlightened” understanding of the consequences of such practices, it’s easy for me to condemn this as being thoroughly primitive but I find it harder to support the assertion that it’s some ultimate evil, given that the practice is much closer to the norm of human history than our modern practices.
The standard practice, if one can be defined, in a typical primitive society generally involves parents fobbing off the girls onto someone else capable of supporting them as soon as possible, at which point they will poop out babies as fast as they can until they die from the exertion. In a society with scarce means, short lifespans, and high infant mortality, the logic makes sense and the issue of emotional readiness just isn’t consequential.
It’s not until a society has developed to the point that life in it isn’t “nasty, brutish, and short” that minor considerations like like happiness and emotional health of people becomes important enough to change these practices. In this case we have a society that’s in the process of inheriting the means which allow a modern outlook, but the culture is predictably still lagging behind and living in barbarity.
[quote]etaco wrote:
The standard practice, if one can be defined, in a typical primitive society generally involves parents fobbing off the girls onto someone else capable of supporting them as soon as possible, at which point they will poop out babies as fast as they can until they die from the exertion. In a society with scarce means, short lifespans, and high infant mortality, the logic makes sense and the issue of emotional readiness just isn’t consequential.
[/quote]
The standard practice, in terms of human history, is to do whatever it takes to survive and help ensure the survival of your offspring. Men are physically superior to women, therefore they have historically been the dominant sex. The survival rate of man is increased when they are able to trade property amongst themselves, and a woman is a valuable piece of property that is even able to create more property. It was more of an economical issue than an emotional/moral issue. This does not excuse any of the behavior, but it does show the natural selfishness of humankind.
Today, we don’t typically have to do much to ensure our own survival, so the moral issues are able to take front and center stage.
The girl has had the bad luck to be born in the wrong place. But do I think she is being raped miserably- Hell no. Even in Afghanistan (where some strange foreign armies are trying to instill democracy from above) they condemn violence in a marriage. If he beats her, the Imam may hear about this and kick his ass. Do I feel she will have a good, dignified life? No, I pity her somehow from my westernized point of view. Although she might live a perfectly happy rural afghani life.
The foeter moralicus is strong in some posts here, while others try to see it more calmly:
Right. He basically bought a working uterus.
It’s easy to condemn traditions of a backward culture. I hope you know that everything America had done in the middle east and in Afghanistan in the last years strengthened in the end the local warlords and the traditions that give women the boot.
@lifticus:
I think you’re going a bit too far here:
I believe most just (a small part, I give you that) people know exactly that it is wrong in essence to treat women like this. Or to have slaves or whatnot. Only because some of our ancestors were morally above the rest our societies finally did cast off the shackles of ignorance.
@pookie
Actually, they don’t see them as children as we do. A child of 10+ years in such a society is practically percieved just a smaller, weaker and less educated adult.
And pat:[quote]
What’s right is right and what’s wrong is wrong. A 40 yr old fucking an 11 yr old is wrong on any planet at any time; she’s a kid. She is miserable. Killing is wrong, stealing is wrong, raping is wrong, etc.[/quote]
Interesting you automatically assume it’s rape.
[quote]tedro wrote:
Today, we don’t typically have to do much to ensure our own survival, so the moral issues are able to take front and center stage.[/quote]
In Afghanistan, between the Russian occupation, the warlords, the US bombings and the pitiful economic conditions, the locals “typically have to do much to ensure” their survival.
[quote]lixy wrote:
pat36 wrote:
Outside of Sharia Law, having sex,(forcing sex, actually) with an unwilling participant is rape!
Well, if she’s forced then that’d be obviously considered rape. I was under the impression that it was not the case here.
If you got details supporting your hypothesis, do share. Till then, what makes you think the guy is going to have sex with her, let alone rape her? He could be impotent. He could have married her just to provide a roof and meals to the kid. It’s a long shot, but it’s certainly not something you can rule out.
So, if you are sure the girl is unwilling and is forced into having sex with the dude, then that’ll be rape. But until you can substantiate that, I’ll continue to consider it a condemnable marriage. We are on the same side here and I don’t see why you’re attacking me for not applying the term rape in this case. Long ago, people matured much quicker, lived a lot less, and marrying as soon as one hit puberty was common. Today, things have changed. Most 18 years old are childish and silly. Marrying young is often an irresponsible act. Many poor families resort to marrying their girls quite young because they view it as the best thing for their daughters. It’s certainly not an easy choice, but it often comes down to slaving in the fields and sweatshops, prostitution, or marriage.
Now that this is out of the way, why the heck did you drag Islam into this? [/quote]
You are, without a doubt, the most pathetic piece of shit I have ever seen.
There is not a fire in hell hot enough for you.
Most of the time, my antics on here are nothing more than an attempt to piss people off, or just be a smart ass. But your defense of pedophilia, and rape - all in the name of religion/culture is inexcusable.
Slavery is less of a crime than the practices you embrace.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Oh, and let’s not forget - this is the same Lifticus that believes in moral relatvism and natural law. Ridiculous pseudo-intellectual drivel is an understatement.[/quote]
Relativism is rooted in natural law; see Einstein ca. 1905, 1917.
There can be no distinction between physical law and natural law. They are one and the same. Since all measurements and valuations must come from observation there can never be a complete consensus and hence everything is relative to the observer’s frame reference – however one might define that frame of reference.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
@lifticus:
I think you’re going a bit too far here:
I believe most just (a small part, I give you that) people know exactly that it is wrong in essence to treat women like this. Or to have slaves or whatnot. Only because some of our ancestors were morally above the rest our societies finally did cast off the shackles of ignorance.
[/quote]
Where does the concept of wrong and right come from?
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
The girl has had the bad luck to be born in the wrong place. But do I think she is being raped miserably- Hell no. Even in Afghanistan (where some strange foreign armies are trying to instill democracy from above) they condemn violence in a marriage. If he beats her, the Imam may hear about this and kick his ass. … [/quote]
You must be joking. Sex with an 11 year old is rape and violence against women is acceptable in that culture as long as the beatings are not too severe.
[quote]lixy wrote:
tedro wrote:
Today, we don’t typically have to do much to ensure our own survival, so the moral issues are able to take front and center stage.
In Afghanistan, between the Russian occupation, the warlords, the US bombings and the pitiful economic conditions, the locals “typically have to do much to ensure” their survival.[/quote]
Edit that to say “Today, in industrialized nations, we don’t…”
[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
The girl has had the bad luck to be born in the wrong place. But do I think she is being raped miserably- Hell no. Even in Afghanistan (where some strange foreign armies are trying to instill democracy from above) they condemn violence in a marriage. If he beats her, the Imam may hear about this and kick his ass. …
You must be joking. Sex with an 11 year old is rape and violence against women is acceptable in that culture as long as the beatings are not too severe.[/quote]
He is not advocating rape or beatings. The point is don’t be too quick to judge. No, it is not right to sell off your daughter’s to be married. However, we have been given no reason to believe she is being raped or beaten, and I highly doubt she is. I am sure it happens on occasion, just like it does here. The topic at hand is simply the marriage to an 11 year old, which we all agree is wrong, but in and of itself doesn’t constitute rape accusations.
What if she doesn’t consider it a rape?
Why can’t you live with the realization that while our views may be more refined, morally superior and generally better for the whole society, their backward beliefs aren’t evil, even if they are wrong?
In many primitive cultures, marrying just “flowered” girls or even a little younger ones is perfectly normal and the girls are more then willing to fulfill their role.
I do not like it and I am more then willing to have my share to change it, yet it’s the way it is, Zap.
[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
What if she doesn’t consider it a rape?
Why can’t you live with the realization that while our views may be more refined, morally superior and generally better for the whole society, their backward beliefs aren’t evil, even if they are wrong?
In many primitive cultures, marrying just “flowered” girls or even a little younger ones is perfectly normal and the girls are more then willing to fulfill their role.
I do not like it and I am more then willing to have my share to change it, yet it’s the way it is, Zap.
[/quote]
She’s 11 fucking years old, dipshit. Go to hell.
[quote]tedro wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
Schwarzfahrer wrote:
The girl has had the bad luck to be born in the wrong place. But do I think she is being raped miserably- Hell no. Even in Afghanistan (where some strange foreign armies are trying to instill democracy from above) they condemn violence in a marriage. If he beats her, the Imam may hear about this and kick his ass. …
You must be joking. Sex with an 11 year old is rape and violence against women is acceptable in that culture as long as the beatings are not too severe.
He is not advocating rape or beatings. The point is don’t be too quick to judge. No, it is not right to sell off your daughter’s to be married. However, we have been given no reason to believe she is being raped or beaten, and I highly doubt she is. I am sure it happens on occasion, just like it does here. The topic at hand is simply the marriage to an 11 year old, which we all agree is wrong, but in and of itself doesn’t constitute rape accusations.
[/quote]
If he is having sex with an 11 year old it is rape.
I have no idea if he is beating her but if he is I doubt the local Imam would give a shit as long as the beatings were not too severe.