Ultimate Fighter: Rampage vs Rashad

[quote]50_Caliber wrote:
slimjim wrote:
Riddle me this, guys who say mcsweeney won, how the fuck could you score the first round in his favor?

I’m not sure how they weight the scoring, but keep in mind McSweeny got a lot of solid leg kicks on Shivers, every one of those was a point.
[/quote]

He didn’t land that many in the first round, though landed some good ones in the second round. Shivers punched him in the face several times in the 1st when McSweeny attempted a leg kick. He also landed some solid jabs, took McSweeny down, and pretty much dominated the 1st round.

Now, the second round I could see giving to McSweeny, though both had pretty equally poor showings in the second round.

But giving both rounds to McSweeny is just a horrible decision.

[quote]
On top of that, McSweeny seriously rocked Shivers at the end of the 2nd round as well as putting him in that headlock. He made the impression on the judges at the perfect time.[/quote]

Headlock? Don’t recall McSweeny getting Shivers in any headlocks.

[quote]m1sf1t wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
BantamRunner wrote:
Oh, I just remembered the guillotine McSweeney had on Shivers…which Shivers got out of, of course. Lasting impressions are a bitch. Should have gone a third…then it would have gone to whoever didn’t fall asleep first!

Yeah, I’ve gotta agree with you guys. I was sure that it was either going to be a decision for Shivers, or it was going a third round. Who the hell was judging that fight?

I think the decision was exceptionally based on how MUCH Shivers sucked! He and the other dude that lost last week looked as if they took one of those “kickboxing” classes at Gold’s gym and thought they could fight, no striking technique, no ground game and ABSOLUTELY ZERO CONDITIONING! WTF!!! Two of the worst fights I’ve ever seen. McSweeny sucked big time too, but at least with him you could see he’s got some knowledge, but ZERO conditioning as well.

I’m rooting for Kimbo on the next fight, but Fat Roy is definitely MUCH more well-rounded.[/quote]

Yeah but the judges are supposed to score the fight in terms of who actually won it, not who they think will do better in later fights or who has more “skillS”.

Shiver’s conditioning absolutely did suck, big time. But I still think that he won the first round pretty convincingly.

[quote]chitown34 wrote:
adarqui wrote:
i think the worst fight in mma history happened on the latest tuf episode… the nfl guy versus the flying high kick off the fence guy… ive never seen two people rest on opposite ends of the octagon, when the fight is actually going on.

sad.

It definitely wasn’t the worst. They may have been gassed, but at least they were swinging. I’ve seen matches where both fighters want to play patty cake.[/quote]

Shamrock vs Severn 2 anyone?

[quote]BodyByGame20 wrote:
Oh, I see what you’re saying. I guess people should learn how to communicate via the internet… you mean to say Roy has MORE experience then Kimbo, not that Kimbo doesn’t have any experience. I’m glad DickHickey could clear this up for me.

It’s also not saying that Kimbo doesn’t have ANY skill, it’s just he’s not good at ALL fighting skills, okay…makes sense. [/quote]

Are you being annoying and dense on purpose? Submitting someone=finishing them. 4 MMA fights against below-average competetion=little experience. Getting taken down and put in a crucifix for 3 mintues by JAMES freaking THOMPSON=crappy ground game. Kimbo seems like a good guy, and I am a big fan of his cousin Rhadi (for those unfamiliar with Rhadi, he is a former olympic judo player, excellent submission grappler, and overall class act) but big beards and big muscles do NOT make someone a good fighter. I wouldn’t mind seeing Kimbo win, but Roy outclasses him in every area the fight will go.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Headlock? Don’t recall McSweeney getting Shivers in any headlocks.[/quote]

He had him in a guillotine choke in the last 20 seconds of the second round before Wes slipped out.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
m1sf1t wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
BantamRunner wrote:
Oh, I just remembered the guillotine McSweeney had on Shivers…which Shivers got out of, of course. Lasting impressions are a bitch. Should have gone a third…then it would have gone to whoever didn’t fall asleep first!

Yeah, I’ve gotta agree with you guys. I was sure that it was either going to be a decision for Shivers, or it was going a third round. Who the hell was judging that fight?

I think the decision was exceptionally based on how MUCH Shivers sucked! He and the other dude that lost last week looked as if they took one of those “kickboxing” classes at Gold’s gym and thought they could fight, no striking technique, no ground game and ABSOLUTELY ZERO CONDITIONING! WTF!!! Two of the worst fights I’ve ever seen. McSweeny sucked big time too, but at least with him you could see he’s got some knowledge, but ZERO conditioning as well.

I’m rooting for Kimbo on the next fight, but Fat Roy is definitely MUCH more well-rounded.

Yeah but the judges are supposed to score the fight in terms of who actually won it, not who they think will do better in later fights or who has more “skillS”.

Shiver’s conditioning absolutely did suck, big time. But I still think that he won the first round pretty convincingly.[/quote]

Oh absolutely! I’m still thankful though that we don’t get to see him tumble around inside the octagon for one more time. In fact, I was puzzled when they were getting ready for a third round, McSweeney didn’t do anything on the first round and not enough on the second but I was thinking it would be absolutely dreadful to see Shivers “fight” again. I think he really lost the decision by way of incompetence…

[quote]tmoney1 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Headlock? Don’t recall McSweeney getting Shivers in any headlocks.

He had him in a guillotine choke in the last 20 seconds of the second round before Wes slipped out.[/quote]

Exactly, which isn’t the same thing as a headlock. :wink:

[quote]BantamRunner wrote:
But the judges can’t go back and rescore the first round. The first round stands alone and I can’t see how McSweeny won that round on leg kicks alone when he got punched hard and taken down gave up and arm and a back. Granted, Shivers didn’t do much with it…but he was on top and working. Takedowns > Low Kicks.[/quote]

I can see giving the first round to Shivers and I was expecting it to go to a 3rd round (wasn’t watching the clock.)

That said, Takedowns are not greater than leg kicks.

Judging criteria are effective striking, grappling and control. Leg kicks that have the other guy hopping on one leg should score greater than a sloppy takedown that leads to zero ground and pound and no sub attempt.

If the striking is equal (which you could argue that it was in the first round, some of Shivers haymakers were causing McSweeney trouble) then a takedown might tip the judges decision which is what I think happened in this case.

At the end of the day though it was a terrible fight. Shivers was there for the taking at the end of the second round and McSweeney didn’t go in for the kill.

Haven’t seen anyone yet that has the skills that I would want to see them on a UFC main card.

[quote]Cockney Blue wrote:
At the end of the day though it was a terrible fight. Shivers was there for the taking at the end of the second round and McSweeney didn’t go in for the kill.
[/quote]

Definitely. McSweeny could have easily finished the fight and not left any doubt in our minds as to whether or not he deserved to win, but didn’t.

[quote]
Haven’t seen anyone yet that has the skills that I would want to see them on a UFC main card.[/quote]

Me either. Let’s hope that there is some “diamond in the rough” who is going to surprise us all and wind up showcasing some legitimate skills.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Cockney Blue wrote:
At the end of the day though it was a terrible fight. Shivers was there for the taking at the end of the second round and McSweeney didn’t go in for the kill.

Definitely. McSweeny could have easily finished the fight and not left any doubt in our minds as to whether or not he deserved to win, but didn’t.

Haven’t seen anyone yet that has the skills that I would want to see them on a UFC main card.

Me either. Let’s hope that there is some “diamond in the rough” who is going to surprise us all and wind up showcasing some legitimate skills.[/quote]

I really hope you are right, this series has the highest viewing figures yet, and new people to the sport are seeing exactly what people like Bob Arrum talk about, talentless out of shape guys throwing wild haymakers or rolling on the floor hugging each other.

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Headlock? Don’t recall McSweeney getting Shivers in any headlocks.

He had him in a guillotine choke in the last 20 seconds of the second round before Wes slipped out.

Exactly, which isn’t the same thing as a headlock. ;)[/quote]

Yeah, my mistake.

I wonder about how the judges score things, does 1 legkick = 1 takedown?
Maybe this was why they gave it to McSweeney in the first round, but I was surprised that they gave a decision after 2 rounds I thought they were going to have to go to the 3rd round because I thought Shivers won the 1st too.

No, one leg kick doesn’t equal one takedown.

Again I posted the criteria above it is about being effective and also the proportion of the round that takes place in that zone.

Lets start with striking. If in the exchanges I hit you and you just take it, I am winning the striking. If I hit you and you counter, we are even, if I throw, you counter but I then recounter, I am winning. Obviously we have to take into account how effective the punches are. One big solid punch that rocks you backwards would score more than a bunch of probing jabs that you are just walking through.

For the grappling, I am looking for the person who is using grappling to actively improve their position and look for a way to end the fight, sweeps, sub attempts that have to be actively defended, working to pass the guard and obtain mount etc.

Next comes control (and this is normally where the takedowns come in unless they are big slams which would be included in the previous areas) who is controlling where the fight takes place? Is one fighter taking the other down at will to an advantageous position? Is one fighter ragdolling the other round the ring. Is one totally pinning and tieing up the other fighter on the ground? Conversly is one fighter sprawling like a motherfucker and keeping it standing so they can use their better striking?

If I can’t separate them on anything else it will come down to aggerssion, who is looking to win the round? Who is actually throwing.

The way that I actually keep score is to keep a mental tally (like counting cards in blackjack.) The fighters start the round at 10 - 10. One fighter has come out strong and is landing strikes so my mental ticker has switched to 10 - 9 in their favour. Second fighter takes the first down and starts dropping elbows in the guard (back to 10 - 10), fighter on the bottom sweeps gets to mount lands some gnp of their own (10 - 9 again).

The second the round ends I write down the tally score that was in my head before there is a chance for the crowd or one particular remembered punch or whatever to cloud my score. That paper goes to the ref to be handed to the head judge (which is actually me for the promotion I work for) and I clear my mind ready for the next round. Starting again, 10 - 10 with no bias based on previous rounds.

I actually make a point of not reading the scores from the other judges during the fight because I don’t want their scores to bias me.

End of the fight, I pull all the papers out of my back pocket, add them up and give the outcome to the ring announcer.

If the fight ends inside the distance I have to get the time from the timekeeper and give the official decision on what the technique was that ended the fight to the announcer.

[quote]adarqui wrote:
i think the worst fight in mma history happened on the latest tuf episode… the nfl guy versus the flying high kick off the fence guy… ive never seen two people rest on opposite ends of the octagon, when the fight is actually going on.

sad.
[/quote]

Man, you took the words out of my mouth. I was YELLING at the tv. I just don’t get how you can have that many fights, get all the way to TUF and then gas after 2 minutes in the first round. Pathetic.

I don’t know if I can watch the rest of the season, driving me CRAZY. Who am I kidding, I’ll be watching the Nelson/Kimbo fight.

Monopoly

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
tmoney1 wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Headlock? Don’t recall McSweeney getting Shivers in any headlocks.

He had him in a guillotine choke in the last 20 seconds of the second round before Wes slipped out.

Exactly, which isn’t the same thing as a headlock. ;)[/quote]

My bad, I thought you meant some sort of a headlock or grabbing the head/neck, not an actual headlock.

To add to what Cockney Blue wrote. MMA, like boxing, is scored by the 10 point must system. You don’t technically get points for kicks or points for takedowns. The round is viewed as a whole and the person judged to be the winner of the round is given 10 points and the loser 9. Other scores can be given, like if for instance a guy really gets dominated he might get 8, so it would be a 10-8 round. At the end all rounds are added up and that is how you get a winner. Sometimes things that happen at the end of rounds can impress a judge more than what he not as recently saw and he will go by what is fresh. That is called stealing a round. In this fight Shivers won the first round 10-9. Any other score is poor judging.

The second round was very close and could have gone either way. I think even though he was totally gassed, Shivers didn’t quit and he had the more effective techniques. He landed some big shots, controlled on the ground some, I think he was going for a kimura, and didn’t seem that fazed by all those outside leg kicks. I would have given him the round. I also thought McSweeney was just awful. Sims may have gassed, but I thought with better conditioning and training he could be dangerous. McSweeney on the other hand, supposedly has good training and threw shitty punches, ill-advised kicks, turned his back and ran away as a defensive move, and wasn’t in that much better shape than Shivers. I was watching on the internet and was sure a third round was coming, but I hoped not, because it was only going to get uglier.

As for being in shape and being conditioned. Kimbo is the leanest guy there. He may not be in the best cardiovascular shape though, they are different. Roy is one of the fattest (there are several guys who are kinda fat) but has shown adequate conditioning in his fights. Kimbo got very tired in his fight with James Thompson even though he was lean. See, the two are not always tied together. Hopefully he has improved his conditioning and all around skill, because I am excited to see the fight next week and contrary to what some knuckleheads have posted, Roy is a pretty good fighter, not just a fat blob who will get tired and has no chance against Kimbo. I personally feel that Kimbo probably has gotten better and is willing to sacrifice more and will surprise an over confident and unprepared Roy.

Lastly, keep the posts necessary and on topic. This could be a very long and tedious thread if the same bs back and forth posts get made every week.

Another thing to remember about judging is the judges have a fixed vantage point not the multi angle with slowmo replay that you get at home. That is why the judges should be spaced around the ring or cage.

I have judged fights and then seen them again on video and been surprised that certain strikes were not connecting like they appeared to be from my vantage point. This explains the sometimes very different score that you get from one of the judges.

so let it begin… Roy won but in winning he looked retarded. Theres more to winning in the ufc than beating the guy. You gotta looked good or dana wont keep you. Roy obviously dominated the ground game and made kimbo look stupid and at a complete loss as to what to do to get out. But Roys pitty pats on kimbo’s head was gay.

Honestly i felt he should of pursed a sumbmission cause his stomach was in the way of hitting kimbo in the head. BUT KIMBO come on! Roy was riding so high on him before he had kimbo totally tied up that even the lowest level grappler could of bucked him off. Kimbo looked like he gave up pretty much from the time they landed on the ground. Roy didnt even have to try and get into mount or side mount. There was really no resistance!! In the end roy did the right thing getting to the ground and controling position but looked like a lazy bitch for not aggressively trying to finish it with a bloody GNP or SUB. I know if i was Roy I would’ve wanted to put an exclamation point on that fight to prove that i was the man!!!

Roy’s punches on the face were quite weak looking. I would’ve liked to see more stand up.

It almost looked like Kimbo could’ve got a knockout for a few seconds, but Roy just fell on top of Kimbo and it was over, Kimbo was helpless.

Kimbo is an exciting fighter as long as he keeps on his feet, he looks like a total amateur as soon as he hits the ground though.

I’m liking the format of the show less time on pranks and crap, more about the fighters. Kimbo looked solid if he gets better on the ground he could be decent.