UFC 153- Silva v Bonnar

Training
61

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]rundymc wrote:
ZEB wrote:
Yeah, Silva is a great fighter no question. I really enjoyed watching him take Bonnar out. But Jon Jones is too big and his ground game is on a higher level than silva’s. This is a man who dominates Lightheavy’s. If Sonnon beat up Silva for over 4 rounds can anyone imagine what Jones would do to him? Usually the person who moves up to fight the champion at the higher weight class loses. Silva/Jones would be no exception. And Silva/GSP would go the same way with the bigger man winning.

Everyone should stay at their own weight and forget about taking on the champ at the next higher weight class.

I wouldn’t say he necessarily has the better ground game.[/quote]

You are not sure that Jon Jones has a better ground game than Anderson Silva?

LOL…stop it.

Yet, he destroyed Bader ON THE GROUND.

But…you’re not comparing Belforts exceptional ground game to Anderson Silva’s are you? no you’re not doing that.

I agree.

I guess we must agree to disagree my friend.

I agree if Anderson Silva had a rib problem…IF. But Chael also took him down in the first round of their second fight and dominated. All Jones would need is one round on the ground with Silva with elbows flying and it would pretty much be over.
[/quote]

Lol it came out wrong. If you read Robert’s response above, those are essentially my opinions, except, you know, expressed in a manner that is actually eloquent, i.e I don’t think Jon is technically superior to Anderson on the ground.
If we’re talking whether or not Jones gets Anderson down, yes, yes he can (and will). As to whether or not he beats him up from there, I think odds are he will, BUT, I’ve always been impressed with how Anderson avoids damage from his back, so I don’t consider the fight a whitewash.[/quote]

If they ever do have the fight I’d love to make a bet with you. I think Jones would wipe up the Octagon with Silva. And I hold Silva in high regard he is truly a great fighter. But Jones is just too big and far too skillful on the ground. And he can put anyone on the ground that wants. Ask Evans and the other long list of opponents he has defeated. And many were exceptional wrestlers who know how to defend a take down attempt. Silva was taken down by Sonnon who has not nearly the skill set of a Jon Jones. Silva’s takedown defense is not nearly up to the skill level that his stand up game is.

Anyway…hat’s how I read it. If Dana White ponies up the money I think we’ll all get to see that match up.[/quote]

I think you’re underplaying Chael’s skills here. As far as pedigree, he got within two matches of qualifying for the Olympics. I know US Greco isn’t nearly as world class as it’s freestyle, but that’s gotta be a big deal right? As far as MMA wrestling, I certainly think it holds up to Jone’s. He’s not nearly as flashy and doesn’t use trips half as well as Jones, but his shot setups with strikes are pretty nice and effective, if not ugly.

That tangent aside, I agree that Silva is no Chuck Liddel, but he’s not that bad. After the Lutter fight, the only guy that took him down regularly was Chael (and he was reportedly injured). His clinch is also pretty solid defensively.

That said, Jones has the edge. He can fight southpaw, he controls range expertly, and he has a decent double. Two of those things caused Anderson trouble in the Chael fights, and Chael doesn’t come close to Jone’s damage output on the ground.

Sad we’ll never get to make that bet ZEB, seems like Jones will be preoccupied with TUF till mid next year, against, well you know:

Wonder if Chael can get him down, hahah.

62

Anyone else think it’s a little early in the rise of Jones’ career to be looking at TUF? Perhaps it’s to boost ratings.

E: With Chael however TUF will be entertaining. And I also think Sonnen has a lot to offer younger fighters considering his own work ethic and teaching (is this correct?) background.

Current season with Nelson and Carwin, can’t help but feel “fighters don’t necessarily make great trainers” and vice versa. Carwin is many levels better as a trainer than Nelson.

63

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:
Anyone else think it’s a little early in the rise of Jones’ career to be looking at TUF? Perhaps it’s to boost ratings.

E: With Chael however TUF will be entertaining. And I also think Sonnen has a lot to offer younger fighters considering his own work ethic and teaching (is this correct?) background.

Current season with Nelson and Carwin, can’t help but feel “fighters don’t necessarily make great trainers” and vice versa. Carwin is many levels better as a trainer than Nelson.[/quote]
Why because they do two a days? If you’re potentially fighting 2-3 times in a short time span what can you really add to your arsenal?

64

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:
Anyone else think it’s a little early in the rise of Jones’ career to be looking at TUF? Perhaps it’s to boost ratings.

E: With Chael however TUF will be entertaining. And I also think Sonnen has a lot to offer younger fighters considering his own work ethic and teaching (is this correct?) background.

Current season with Nelson and Carwin, can’t help but feel “fighters don’t necessarily make great trainers” and vice versa. Carwin is many levels better as a trainer than Nelson.[/quote]

I don’t think it’s too early, I think its a waste.

Chael doesn’t deserve it, not necessarily because he cut the queue, but because he has not AT ALL shown he can be competitive with Jones.

Jon’s bigger, stronger, great takedown defense, better clinch, better finishing ability. Sonnen is a fighter whose style benefits from physical dominance. The one area I think Sonnen can win is on mat scrambles. I also suspect he can maintain top position on Jones (much like Anderson). But I thought the same about Rashad (and still do), yet the fight never went there, or came close.

The one saving grace about all this is that Jones was probably going to be out till April anyway, on account of that tweaked elbow. But in the meantime they threw away a compelling fight in Chael/Forrest and put a bunch of real contenders on the waiting list, all for a fight everyone knows the outcome of.

And I’m a big Chael fan, hahah.

65

IMO: This is an extremely unprofessional decision that reeks like burned flesh. I thought the UFC was at least a step above the WWE, but, as long as you are a ex-con with a talent for running your mouth, then, hell, give him a title shot.He damn sure didnt earn anything. I am just surprised he lost/withdrew (whatever) his election bid, he would fit in politics like a round in the chamber.

66

[quote]idaho wrote:
IMO: This is an extremely unprofessional decision that reeks like burned flesh. I thought the UFC was at least a step above the WWE, but, as long as you are a ex-con with a talent for running your mouth, then, hell, give him a title shot.He damn sure didnt earn anything. I am just surprised he lost/withdrew (whatever) his election bid, he would fit in politics like a round in the chamber. [/quote]

Agreed.

67

Frankly, I had to read the last posts twice, then immediately sought out an mma site to realize what’s going on.

Chael-Jones.

It does make sense for Zuffa.
If the TUF ratings have gone to garbage, this is the best pairing they can scramble together right now.

At least Chael will be literally in Jones face from the get go. Not that it will matter much.
Once he’s not, he’s gonna get picked apart piece by piece.
Although he might get round 1.

Also good, we won’t see Chael again after his KO.
This is the mountaintop for him. He’ll have a last cashgrab and be gone for good.
It’s been a great ride, but your mouth shouldn’t get you title fight after title fight.

68

Looking at this from a business perspective, I would kill to see the stats throughout the whole ufc brand whenever anything about Chael vs anyone is released.

I mean, the analytics and statistics of marketing jumps, watches, likes, follows, tweets, facebook activity, video clicks, page clicks, before and after visits and weighing it up with all the other financial analytics and measuring it all.

It must be fairly impressive to consider Chael again vs Bones. It must be very impressive for them to convince Jones to fight him and actually make a show with him because there will not be one show in which Chael wont run circles around Jones with his mouth and those stats, repeated for an hour for weeks on end have got to be epic in proportion for the UFC to not let this horse die.

I think Chael will find a comfortable chair in commentating or something as well. Sure, he backs a lot of what he says up by being skilled enough to get in the cage but the things that spew forth out of this guys mouth are just awesome sometimes.

69

Machida and Henderson deserve a shot before Chael. As does the winner of Shogun-Gustavsson.

70

this whole world is not about who deserves what.

71

[quote]rundymc wrote:
But in the meantime they threw away a compelling fight in Chael/Forrest and put a bunch of real contenders on the waiting list, all for a fight everyone knows the outcome of.
[/quote]

Yes.

72

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]XanderBuilt wrote:
Anyone else think it’s a little early in the rise of Jones’ career to be looking at TUF? Perhaps it’s to boost ratings.

E: With Chael however TUF will be entertaining. And I also think Sonnen has a lot to offer younger fighters considering his own work ethic and teaching (is this correct?) background.

Current season with Nelson and Carwin, can’t help but feel “fighters don’t necessarily make great trainers” and vice versa. Carwin is many levels better as a trainer than Nelson.[/quote]
Why because they do two a days? If you’re potentially fighting 2-3 times in a short time span what can you really add to your arsenal? [/quote]

I was coming from the POV that a televised reality based series will take a lot away from a fighter’s momentum. Perhaps we’ll see how Jones reacts under that media pressure. And how much of what he’s been taught can be passed on.

Is there word on which weight class they will be coaching? Sorry if I missed it.

73

[quote]humble wrote:
Looking at this from a business perspective, I would kill to see the stats throughout the whole ufc brand whenever anything about Chael vs anyone is released.

I mean, the analytics and statistics of marketing jumps, watches, likes, follows, tweets, facebook activity, video clicks, page clicks, before and after visits and weighing it up with all the other financial analytics and measuring it all.

It must be fairly impressive to consider Chael again vs Bones. It must be very impressive for them to convince Jones to fight him and actually make a show with him because there will not be one show in which Chael wont run circles around Jones with his mouth and those stats, repeated for an hour for weeks on end have got to be epic in proportion for the UFC to not let this horse die.

I think Chael will find a comfortable chair in commentating or something as well. Sure, he backs a lot of what he says up by being skilled enough to get in the cage but the things that spew forth out of this guys mouth are just awesome sometimes.[/quote]

This is true, Zuffa is primarily concerned with money and if they think that Chael being a coach on TUF is going to get them the best ratings, then that’s what they are going to do. That doesn’t mean though that we as fans don’t also have the right to disagree with the notion of giving a middleweight who just lost a bid for the title (in convincing fashion) should get a shot at the LHW belt when there are several other worthy contenders awaiting their shots. Nor does the business aspect of the sport serve to legitimize such practices.

Personally I feel that if the UFC really felt like getting good ratings and remaining at least relatively legitimate in their awarding of title shots that they should have put a different LHW opposite Chael and had the two fight for a number 1 contender spot and chance to earn a legit title bid. They would still have gotten Chael’s antics and smack talking abilities, and depending on who they matched him up against maybe even better fireworks or a totally different storyline/dynamic.

For instance:
Chael vs Henderson- friends/training partners who know each other well (kind of a pupil finally challenging his teacher), plus you might get some interesting dynamics in terms of loyalty from their coaching staffs (since they would have to choose one or the other, which could potentially cause friction).

Chael vs Rampage- talk about epic, epic smack talking and animosity. This would probably be hands down the most explosive, drama filled, doorway destroying season of TUF ever filmed.

Chael vs Rashad- again, huge smack talking potential and a really interesting stylistic matchup IMO

Chael vs Machida- honestly don’t know about Machida’s smack talking skills, but would be an interesting match up from a fight perspective, and you might wind up with two extremes in terms of Chael running his mouth the whole time (cage fighter) while Machida stays calm and saves the aggression for the fight itself (martial artist)

Chael vs Shogun- again, not sure about Shoguns smack talking ability, but I suspect he would not back down from Chael. Not really the most exciting fight though IMO

Chael vs Forrest- they were going to fight any how and Forrest can not only talk, but he can be pretty damn funny too.

TBH, Chael vs Rampage or Rashad would probably get the best ratings, while Chael vs Hendo, Machida, or Shogun would make the most sense in terms of title implications.

Of course this is all just daydreaming though as the season is already set.

74

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
Looking at this from a business perspective, I would kill to see the stats throughout the whole ufc brand whenever anything about Chael vs anyone is released.

I mean, the analytics and statistics of marketing jumps, watches, likes, follows, tweets, facebook activity, video clicks, page clicks, before and after visits and weighing it up with all the other financial analytics and measuring it all.

It must be fairly impressive to consider Chael again vs Bones. It must be very impressive for them to convince Jones to fight him and actually make a show with him because there will not be one show in which Chael wont run circles around Jones with his mouth and those stats, repeated for an hour for weeks on end have got to be epic in proportion for the UFC to not let this horse die.

I think Chael will find a comfortable chair in commentating or something as well. Sure, he backs a lot of what he says up by being skilled enough to get in the cage but the things that spew forth out of this guys mouth are just awesome sometimes.[/quote]

This is true, Zuffa is primarily concerned with money and if they think that Chael being a coach on TUF is going to get them the best ratings, then that’s what they are going to do. That doesn’t mean though that we as fans don’t also have the right to disagree with the notion of giving a middleweight who just lost a bid for the title (in convincing fashion) should get a shot at the LHW belt when there are several other worthy contenders awaiting their shots. Nor does the business aspect of the sport serve to legitimize such practices.

Personally I feel that if the UFC really felt like getting good ratings and remaining at least relatively legitimate in their awarding of title shots that they should have put a different LHW opposite Chael and had the two fight for a number 1 contender spot and chance to earn a legit title bid. They would still have gotten Chael’s antics and smack talking abilities, and depending on who they matched him up against maybe even better fireworks or a totally different storyline/dynamic.

For instance:
Chael vs Henderson- friends/training partners who know each other well (kind of a pupil finally challenging his teacher), plus you might get some interesting dynamics in terms of loyalty from their coaching staffs (since they would have to choose one or the other, which could potentially cause friction).

Chael vs Rampage- talk about epic, epic smack talking and animosity. This would probably be hands down the most explosive, drama filled, doorway destroying season of TUF ever filmed.

Chael vs Rashad- again, huge smack talking potential and a really interesting stylistic matchup IMO

Chael vs Machida- honestly don’t know about Machida’s smack talking skills, but would be an interesting match up from a fight perspective, and you might wind up with two extremes in terms of Chael running his mouth the whole time (cage fighter) while Machida stays calm and saves the aggression for the fight itself (martial artist)

Chael vs Shogun- again, not sure about Shoguns smack talking ability, but I suspect he would not back down from Chael. Not really the most exciting fight though IMO

Chael vs Forrest- they were going to fight any how and Forrest can not only talk, but he can be pretty damn funny too.

TBH, Chael vs Rampage or Rashad would probably get the best ratings, while Chael vs Hendo, Machida, or Shogun would make the most sense in terms of title implications.

Of course this is all just daydreaming though as the season is already set.[/quote]

I think the bump Jones will get is more what Zuffa’s after. Jon Jones is a tremendous potential, and looks like he could hold the belt for a very long time. He is also treated as kind of “meh” by the fans. His DUI, and what appears to be some level of conceit don’t help his market value.

Coaching opposite of the Chael Sonnen Crazy Shit Hype Machine might help him come off as a good guy, and hence a marketable champ. It will give them a chance to both edit Jones’s comments, and make him seem accessible. Worst case they let Sonnen be the boogeyman and set Jones up to slay him.

Regards,

Robert A

75

Silva would destroy Jones, but the UFC isn’t gonna have it’s golden goose lose to a guy on his way out, so they’re throwing a loud mouth attention hound at him to keep fans interested. Strictly business y’all.

76

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
Looking at this from a business perspective, I would kill to see the stats throughout the whole ufc brand whenever anything about Chael vs anyone is released.

I mean, the analytics and statistics of marketing jumps, watches, likes, follows, tweets, facebook activity, video clicks, page clicks, before and after visits and weighing it up with all the other financial analytics and measuring it all.

It must be fairly impressive to consider Chael again vs Bones. It must be very impressive for them to convince Jones to fight him and actually make a show with him because there will not be one show in which Chael wont run circles around Jones with his mouth and those stats, repeated for an hour for weeks on end have got to be epic in proportion for the UFC to not let this horse die.

I think Chael will find a comfortable chair in commentating or something as well. Sure, he backs a lot of what he says up by being skilled enough to get in the cage but the things that spew forth out of this guys mouth are just awesome sometimes.[/quote]

This is true, Zuffa is primarily concerned with money and if they think that Chael being a coach on TUF is going to get them the best ratings, then that’s what they are going to do. That doesn’t mean though that we as fans don’t also have the right to disagree with the notion of giving a middleweight who just lost a bid for the title (in convincing fashion) should get a shot at the LHW belt when there are several other worthy contenders awaiting their shots. Nor does the business aspect of the sport serve to legitimize such practices.

Personally I feel that if the UFC really felt like getting good ratings and remaining at least relatively legitimate in their awarding of title shots that they should have put a different LHW opposite Chael and had the two fight for a number 1 contender spot and chance to earn a legit title bid. They would still have gotten Chael’s antics and smack talking abilities, and depending on who they matched him up against maybe even better fireworks or a totally different storyline/dynamic.

For instance:
Chael vs Henderson- friends/training partners who know each other well (kind of a pupil finally challenging his teacher), plus you might get some interesting dynamics in terms of loyalty from their coaching staffs (since they would have to choose one or the other, which could potentially cause friction).

Chael vs Rampage- talk about epic, epic smack talking and animosity. This would probably be hands down the most explosive, drama filled, doorway destroying season of TUF ever filmed.

Chael vs Rashad- again, huge smack talking potential and a really interesting stylistic matchup IMO

Chael vs Machida- honestly don’t know about Machida’s smack talking skills, but would be an interesting match up from a fight perspective, and you might wind up with two extremes in terms of Chael running his mouth the whole time (cage fighter) while Machida stays calm and saves the aggression for the fight itself (martial artist)

Chael vs Shogun- again, not sure about Shoguns smack talking ability, but I suspect he would not back down from Chael. Not really the most exciting fight though IMO

Chael vs Forrest- they were going to fight any how and Forrest can not only talk, but he can be pretty damn funny too.

TBH, Chael vs Rampage or Rashad would probably get the best ratings, while Chael vs Hendo, Machida, or Shogun would make the most sense in terms of title implications.

Of course this is all just daydreaming though as the season is already set.[/quote]

Very nice summary of match-ups.

77

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Silva would destroy Jones, but the UFC isn’t gonna have it’s golden goose lose to a guy on his way out, so they’re throwing a loud mouth attention hound at him to keep fans interested. Strictly business y’all.[/quote]

Silva/GSP is probable though.

78

On the same card? Because as much as I’d like to watch the death of Chael Sonnen, I’m not encouraging asshattery of this magnitude by paying to watch. But if there were a real fight involved, that would be different.

79

[quote]devildog_jim wrote:
On the same card? Because as much as I’d like to watch the death of Chael Sonnen, I’m not encouraging asshattery of this magnitude by paying to watch. But if there were a real fight involved, that would be different.[/quote]

Not sure if this is directed at my GSP/Silva comment BUT:

Just being talked about. Depends on the result from GSP/Condit etc.

80

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]humble wrote:
Looking at this from a business perspective, I would kill to see the stats throughout the whole ufc brand whenever anything about Chael vs anyone is released.

I mean, the analytics and statistics of marketing jumps, watches, likes, follows, tweets, facebook activity, video clicks, page clicks, before and after visits and weighing it up with all the other financial analytics and measuring it all.

It must be fairly impressive to consider Chael again vs Bones. It must be very impressive for them to convince Jones to fight him and actually make a show with him because there will not be one show in which Chael wont run circles around Jones with his mouth and those stats, repeated for an hour for weeks on end have got to be epic in proportion for the UFC to not let this horse die.

I think Chael will find a comfortable chair in commentating or something as well. Sure, he backs a lot of what he says up by being skilled enough to get in the cage but the things that spew forth out of this guys mouth are just awesome sometimes.[/quote]

This is true, Zuffa is primarily concerned with money and if they think that Chael being a coach on TUF is going to get them the best ratings, then that’s what they are going to do. That doesn’t mean though that we as fans don’t also have the right to disagree with the notion of giving a middleweight who just lost a bid for the title (in convincing fashion) should get a shot at the LHW belt when there are several other worthy contenders awaiting their shots. Nor does the business aspect of the sport serve to legitimize such practices.

Personally I feel that if the UFC really felt like getting good ratings and remaining at least relatively legitimate in their awarding of title shots that they should have put a different LHW opposite Chael and had the two fight for a number 1 contender spot and chance to earn a legit title bid. They would still have gotten Chael’s antics and smack talking abilities, and depending on who they matched him up against maybe even better fireworks or a totally different storyline/dynamic.

For instance:
Chael vs Henderson- friends/training partners who know each other well (kind of a pupil finally challenging his teacher), plus you might get some interesting dynamics in terms of loyalty from their coaching staffs (since they would have to choose one or the other, which could potentially cause friction).

Chael vs Rampage- talk about epic, epic smack talking and animosity. This would probably be hands down the most explosive, drama filled, doorway destroying season of TUF ever filmed.

Chael vs Rashad- again, huge smack talking potential and a really interesting stylistic matchup IMO

Chael vs Machida- honestly don’t know about Machida’s smack talking skills, but would be an interesting match up from a fight perspective, and you might wind up with two extremes in terms of Chael running his mouth the whole time (cage fighter) while Machida stays calm and saves the aggression for the fight itself (martial artist)

Chael vs Shogun- again, not sure about Shoguns smack talking ability, but I suspect he would not back down from Chael. Not really the most exciting fight though IMO

Chael vs Forrest- they were going to fight any how and Forrest can not only talk, but he can be pretty damn funny too.

TBH, Chael vs Rampage or Rashad would probably get the best ratings, while Chael vs Hendo, Machida, or Shogun would make the most sense in terms of title implications.

Of course this is all just daydreaming though as the season is already set.[/quote]

A+