Ufc 116

[Sentoguy]

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
An Overeem knee would KO anyone and I mean anyone in mma. Watching what he did to Texeira, Fujita and Poturak, I mean they were out cold for a long ass time.
[/quote]

I think Mark Hunt could take at least one of Overeem’s knees and not go out. But yeah, those knees are vicious.

The thing is, I don’t think that Overeem could control Lesnar in the clinch to be able to knee him in the head and you can’t knee a downed opponent. So, unless it was a knee timed perfectly on a Lesnar takedown attempt, I don’t really see him being able to KO Lesnar with knees.

I see Cain as a more skilled HW version of Jon Fitch, he’s one of those grinders and I think he can get Brock down for sure and get up himself if he’s taken down. Cain competed at HW in wrestling so him being the small guy hasn’t really been an issuefor him he’s used to it and feels his quickness, conditioning and skill allow him to compete with bigger fighters.

I think that’s a fair comparison, except that Cain also has KO power.

As far as Cain having wrestled at HW, so did Brock. The difference is that Brock was a junior college national champ, Div 1 first runner up, and Div 1 national champ at HW. And while Cain was also a junior college national champ, the best he ever did in Div 1 is 4th place (no slouch, but not as good as Brock either).

In other words, Lesnar is going to be able to outwrestle Cain, and unlike collegiate wrestling, once he gets top position he’s going to start landing strikes.

Cain could potentially try to burn him out and/or outstrike him (which I think is his best bet), but I highly doubt he’ll be taking Brock down and controlling him. Or defending Brock’s takedowns or getting up from underneath him consistently.

THis fight is more interesting than Carwin Lesnar to me mostly because of the hype Cain has received and not from the media. People who train with him say this guy is a prodigy at mma. Should be good.

Yeah, let’s hope it lives up to it’s potential.

[quote]
And who knows if Fedor would beat these guys, but quite writing him off it would at the very least be very competitive. I’m not saying he would win against the supposed new breed of fighter but he definitely would not lose to all of them. [/quote]

I for one am not writing off Fedor. I think that he could outstrike Brock and possibly KO him. It definitely would not be a sure deal (either way) if they fought though. Both have the ability to beat the other.

[slimjim]

[quote]kaisermetal wrote:
I’m more bewildered by the fact that Sexyama got subbed by LEBEN for christ sake, but give props to where it is due, Leben was a warrior, he was losing a decision there if he hadn’t locked that triangle.

[/quote]

lol, ive been telling my boys at the jiu jitsu gym that leben trains submissions…none of them believed me until that fight…given the fact that i was watching the fight with a group of judo guys, i was the only one running around jumping up and down screaming after he hit the triangle. epic shit! i know he’s got his personal demons and all, but there is no quit in that guy - as long as he’s conscious, he is fighting

[kmcnyc]

I might be late to this , but it was a good card.

Leben- good for him, dude has only one gear and that is forward.
he is really good at making people fight his fight.

Lytle- pulled it out again
I like George Sotiropoulos more and more
but I have liked him from when he kicked Aoki in the balls.

heavy weights

I dont know what to think.

what is the point of being 285 solid lbs if you can only fight for 4 minutes 30 seconds??

Lesnar running away was classic, yet he stuck it out and got the job done.
Good for him, he still has work to do but like it or not he did win.

Still I have to ask ???

why is his submission acumen being credited towards training BJJ or submissions?
the arm triangle is text book HS wrestling.

[sardines12]

Because he stated he learned it from his bjj coach.

[sardines12]

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
An Overeem knee would KO anyone and I mean anyone in mma. Watching what he did to Texeira, Fujita and Poturak, I mean they were out cold for a long ass time.
[/quote]

I think Mark Hunt could take at least one of Overeem’s knees and not go out. But yeah, those knees are vicious.

The thing is, I don’t think that Overeem could control Lesnar in the clinch to be able to knee him in the head and you can’t knee a downed opponent. So, unless it was a knee timed perfectly on a Lesnar takedown attempt, I don’t really see him being able to KO Lesnar with knees.

I see Cain as a more skilled HW version of Jon Fitch, he’s one of those grinders and I think he can get Brock down for sure and get up himself if he’s taken down. Cain competed at HW in wrestling so him being the small guy hasn’t really been an issuefor him he’s used to it and feels his quickness, conditioning and skill allow him to compete with bigger fighters.

I think that’s a fair comparison, except that Cain also has KO power.

As far as Cain having wrestled at HW, so did Brock. The difference is that Brock was a junior college national champ, Div 1 first runner up, and Div 1 national champ at HW. And while Cain was also a junior college national champ, the best he ever did in Div 1 is 4th place (no slouch, but not as good as Brock either).

In other words, Lesnar is going to be able to outwrestle Cain, and unlike collegiate wrestling, once he gets top position he’s going to start landing strikes.

Cain could potentially try to burn him out and/or outstrike him (which I think is his best bet), but I highly doubt he’ll be taking Brock down and controlling him. Or defending Brock’s takedowns or getting up from underneath him consistently.

THis fight is more interesting than Carwin Lesnar to me mostly because of the hype Cain has received and not from the media. People who train with him say this guy is a prodigy at mma. Should be good.

Yeah, let’s hope it lives up to it’s potential.

[quote]
And who knows if Fedor would beat these guys, but quite writing him off it would at the very least be very competitive. I’m not saying he would win against the supposed new breed of fighter but he definitely would not lose to all of them. [/quote]

I for one am not writing off Fedor. I think that he could outstrike Brock and possibly KO him. It definitely would not be a sure deal (either way) if they fought though. Both have the ability to beat the other.[/quote]
I don’t know Overeem seems bigger than Brock now. Brock is a good 20-25 pounds lighter currently.

And Cain has beaten Cole Konrad and lost to Steve Mocco, Mocco who was competed in the Olympics losing in the Bronze medal match, so I really don’t think the wrestling difference is as big as people make it out to be. People act as if Lesnar is a
HW GSP witch he hasn’t proven yet, mainly because he hasn’t fought many wrestlers.

[WhiteFlash]

Zeb’s Brock loving is bordering on ridiculous. Carwin gassed himself, and like Boss said if he connected a clean right [or anything other than that uppercut, really] Lesnar would still be out. But, I will say that Lesnar impressed me with his ability to hang tough and sink the sub. Sinking the sub had a lot more to do with Carwin being completely exhausted than Lesnar’s awesome jiu-jitsu, but he still got it. But if - and think it’s safe to say it’ll happen - they fight again Lesnar’s getting ko’d in the 1st. I think even he knows he barely snuck outta that one.

[kentemeny]

I think Brock is smart enough to realize he almost got KO’d and will make adjustments. This past week he continually talked about bringing new trainers in and “evolving”. The guy is so inexperienced (5-6 fights?) that you’ve got to think he can make significant improvements over the next 6-12 months.

With his wrestling ability and freakish, 1 in a billion athleticism, he’ll be pretty much unbeatable if he improves his stand-up game from bad to merely average.

[kentemeny]

I’ve seen a lot of “If Carwin landed one more punch posts”… bottom line is he didnt. If the queen had balls she’d be king. Bottom line, Brock has beaten Couture, Mir and Carwin and is the best guy in the UFC until someone takes the belt away.

There’s so much Lesnar-hate on this and other forums you’d think its a miracle the guy could win in a fight against the fat 15 year-old next door, yet somehow the “fake wrestler” keeps getting his hand raised.

[heavythrower]

I will agree with the above statement. I am more of a boxing guy, as i have been a fan since i was a little boy and even boxed a little as a teen…but fighters are fighters… they never like to admit when they are beat, even when they are BEAT. and when on the rare occasion they do accept defeat, like carwin has so far, their team and fans make tons of excuses for them.

face it, most of the stuff i read up till this fight (with exception of the brock fan-boys) had Carwin as all the four horsemen of the apocalypse rolled into one, and he was gonna go in there and just knock brocks head off inside a few seconds and done.

but it did not work out that way, and now everybody is saying that either carwin is not that good, or that he should have won "only if ____ " insert excuse/mistake in the blank.

whatever. in a heavy weight boxing match, one lucky punch can win the fight at any time. in a heavy weight MMA match, where you have subs, knees, elbows, takedowns, AND 4 ounce gloves, that “anything can happen” rule gets multiplied by, oh, like 1000000000 times.

kinda like when i was a competitive thrower and weight lifter. I hit all sorts of great numbers in the gym and on the practice field while training, but only a few times i was able to put it all together and be my absolute best on competition day.

that is what made me mediocre at best. that is why lesnar won and carwin lost. lesnar was just the better man on that given night. both are big, athletic, and dangerous super-heavyweights.

[BrownTrout]

This fight was interesting. I predicted that Carwin was going to beast Lesnar and knock him out in the first round. My prediction was correct…except Lesnar didn’t go to sleep. ACTUALLY, I have watched the fight closely 4 or 5 times since, and if you pay close attention to the very end of the ground and pound-where Carwin stops punching and starts huffing-I think Lesnar WAS knocked out.

If Carwin had kept throwing little shots I think the ref would have had to call a TKO because Lesnars guard was 100% gone. I would appreciate it if anybody else would watch it again closely and give your thoughts on this. I’ve also heard allot of people say that Carwin didn’t fight a smart fight by letting himself get gassed, but I would have to say that when you have the opportunity to punch somebody in the face that many times, why wait until later!!???

I’m ussually a hardcore Brock hater just because his attitude is so ungracious, but in the post fight interview he seemed very humble. He claimed it was because of his health battle, but the attitude of the pre-fight brock seemed much more like his older self. I think the fact that he got the shit beat out of him probably gave him a dose of the reality that he’s better than ALLOT of people, but not above competition.

I bet it was frustrating for carwin to deal out such a heavy portion of ass kicking and still lose. I think if there is a rematch Lesnar won’t stand a chance unless he brings up his boxing skills. He had the chance to stand up and decided to stay on his back getting face fucked. I think this alone is proof that he knows how outmatched he was in the stand up.

[ZEB]

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Nein, nein mein frommer Freund!

Mir has beefed up a bit, right. But he didn’t show us convincingly he can actually use that extra muscle, nowadays, he even talks about going down to lightheavy. So he’s not comfortable with it.
As for his boxing, it’s not that spectacular.
Even his most valiant supporters admit how sluggish Nogueira has become. And his style of boxing is WAY different then Fedors.
Fedor always stalks, his punches are bad intentions that find their mark and he will follow in to kill.
Mir takes his time and is terrible on the defense when pressured hard on the feet.
That fight would be a no brainer.

Sapp has probably more heart when it comes to taking punches. He competed against a lot of punching mosters.
He had enough training to not back down 100% against every flurry.

Also,
Lesnar and Sapp share one particular advantage:
If they turtle up (I mean generally, not the ground position) they are hard to finish because of the sheer size.

On the ground, it’ll be frustrating to come up with a solid tactic against that.
[/quote]

I think I get it, Fedor beats Nog and that makes Fedor invincible. Mir beats Nog and well, Nog had a bad night.

One more point, Bob Sapp at 6’ 5" and 350 pounds is quite a bit larger than Brock Lesnar. If you don’t think so then you are ignoring a a 2 inch and 85 pound advantage! Yet if Lesnar beat someone who was 2 inches shorter and 85 pounds lighter you would say he won because of his size, and you’d actually be right on that one!

Lesnar is quite a bit smaller than Sapp and really only marginally larger than his major opponents in the UFC. In fact he only had 15 pounds against Mir in their last fight. Lesnar was the exact same weight as Carwin. Don’t fall into the trap that some of the less experienced posters do (not you) in thinking that it’s Lesnars size that causes him to dominate, that’s only a part of the equation.

It’s his (wrestling) ability, heart, endurance and power. Yea, he’s a little larger than the closest contenders and even greater than that with the rest. But, his size is no where near Sapps. The Sapp/Lesnar comparison is a dead one.

[ZEB]

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:
ZEB wrote:
What many fans didn’t realize is that Lesnar has heart, can take a punch and has done some homework on submissions.

Many fans(even the haters) didn’t expect him to turn ass and ball up from Carwin. That wasn’t heart…that was survival. [/quote]

Oh really? Then tell me, what is it called when an opponent turns away, or just lays there and waits for the ref to stop it, or just taps under a relentless flurry of blows? And as you know we’ve seen all of these examples. Lesnar did none of them. He whethered the storm, came out for the second round smiling, and fought back to win. In case you don’t get it (and I don’t think you do) that’s called heart!

[quote]
Carwin is not the guy to beat Lesnar and he never was! Put a tape measure around Lesnars head and neck. Add that to his shear size, which always plays a role in any fight. There was a far better than 50/50 chance that Lesnar was going to be able to deflect, or withstand most of Carwin’s punches, which he did. In fact, Carwin kept up a more torrid pace, and came closer to beating Lesnar than I originally thought, he’s one very bad dude.

Hindsight…is easy. Of course you say all of that now…cheap. [/quote]

Maybe you should puruse my prior posts on Lesnar. Yea, better you do that before you post.

Far better than 50/50 chance Lesnar would withstand his punches,my ass…lol. Every person who watched that fight knew Lesnar had a high chance of losing to Carwin the first minute of the fight. Lesnar didn’t withstand any clean shots except for the looping uppercut and the smashing elbow on ground(which I think flash KO’d him).

Oh sorry, I thought I watched Carwin unleash everything that he had and Lesnar get up at the end of the round walk to his corner then come out the following round and win. Now what fight did you watch again? Carwin did what Carwin does. If you are saying Lesnar ducked, blocked or withstood all of those blows then that should be a compliment to Lesnar, but you’re not that fond of Lesnar (apparently) so, yea I get it.

Yeah,that big ass neck did play a role in him not getting KTFO…but let’s not kid ourselves. If Carwin had caught Brock on the button like he did Gonzaga…he would still be sleeping. It’s not like he ate shots like Cain did against Kongo.

So, again, it’s either Lesnars ability at ducking, blocking or absorbing punches that helped him win. Or, are you saying Carwin was not good enough to get off enough clean shots? Which is it?

I give props to Lesnar for not giving up and staying in the fight…but let’s not tug on his nuts even further and act as if he didn’t have the horseshoe up his ass this time.

No, no, I think he had a horseshoe up his ass. In fact, I’d be willing to bet he ate the entire horse after he weighed in.

[ZEB]

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Zeb’s Brock loving is bordering on ridiculous.[/quote]

that’s funny I was thinking that other people hating on Lesnar was bording on the ridiculous. I guess it’s a matter of perspective on this one.

Carwin gassed himself,

That’s how Carwin fights. Have you ever seen him not go all out in the first round. That’s how he wins. The “if Carwin didn’t gas” crowd are singing the wrong tune.

and like Boss said if he connected a clean right [or anything other than that uppercut, really] Lesnar would still be out.

And like I said to Boss, you are either giving Lesnar credit for being able to block, duck, or take the shots. Or, you are saying that Carwin was not good enough to hit him hard enough in the right place to end it. Which is it?

But, I will say that Lesnar impressed me with his ability to hang tough and sink the sub. Sinking the sub had a lot more to do with Carwin being completely exhausted than Lesnar’s awesome jiu-jitsu, but he still got it. But if - and think it’s safe to say it’ll happen - they fight again Lesnar’s getting ko’d in the 1st. I think even he knows he barely snuck outta that one.

I bet on the first fight and won a bundle. I’ll bet on Lesnar again in the second fight and win even more. Carwin is NOT the guy to beat Lesnar. His best chance was fight one and he didn’t do it, came close but didn’t do it. If he tries to box Lesnar he’ll get taken down eventually adn lose again. If he flurries he’ll gas again. If he shoots, he’ll lose on the ground.

Carwins best chance to win was doing what he did, as that’s how he wins.

[kmcnyc]

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
I will agree with the above statement. I am more of a boxing guy, as i have been a fan since i was a little boy and even boxed a little as a teen…but fighters are fighters… they never like to admit when they are beat, even when they are BEAT. and when on the rare occasion they do accept defeat, like carwin has so far, their team and fans make tons of excuses for them.

face it, most of the stuff i read up till this fight (with exception of the brock fan-boys) had Carwin as all the four horsemen of the apocalypse rolled into one, and he was gonna go in there and just knock brocks head off inside a few seconds and done.

but it did not work out that way, and now everybody is saying that either carwin is not that good, or that he should have won "only if ____ " insert excuse/mistake in the blank.

whatever. in a heavy weight boxing match, one lucky punch can win the fight at any time. in a heavy weight MMA match, where you have subs, knees, elbows, takedowns, AND 4 ounce gloves, that “anything can happen” rule gets multiplied by, oh, like 1000000000 times.

kinda like when i was a competitive thrower and weight lifter. I hit all sorts of great numbers in the gym and on the practice field while training, but only a few times i was able to put it all together and be my absolute best on competition day.

that is what made me mediocre at best. that is why lesnar won and carwin lost. lesnar was just the better man on that given night. both are big, athletic, and dangerous super-heavyweights. [/quote]

great post.

[sardines12]

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Nein, nein mein frommer Freund!

Mir has beefed up a bit, right. But he didn’t show us convincingly he can actually use that extra muscle, nowadays, he even talks about going down to lightheavy. So he’s not comfortable with it.
As for his boxing, it’s not that spectacular.
Even his most valiant supporters admit how sluggish Nogueira has become. And his style of boxing is WAY different then Fedors.
Fedor always stalks, his punches are bad intentions that find their mark and he will follow in to kill.
Mir takes his time and is terrible on the defense when pressured hard on the feet.
That fight would be a no brainer.

Sapp has probably more heart when it comes to taking punches. He competed against a lot of punching mosters.
He had enough training to not back down 100% against every flurry.

Also,
Lesnar and Sapp share one particular advantage:
If they turtle up (I mean generally, not the ground position) they are hard to finish because of the sheer size.

On the ground, it’ll be frustrating to come up with a solid tactic against that.
[/quote]

I think I get it, Fedor beats Nog and that makes Fedor invincible. Mir beats Nog and well, Nog had a bad night.

One more point, Bob Sapp at 6’ 5" and 350 pounds is quite a bit larger than Brock Lesnar. If you don’t think so then you are ignoring a a 2 inch and 85 pound advantage! Yet if Lesnar beat someone who was 2 inches shorter and 85 pounds lighter you would say he won because of his size, and you’d actually be right on that one!

Lesnar is quite a bit smaller than Sapp and really only marginally larger than his major opponents in the UFC. In fact he only had 15 pounds against Mir in their last fight. Lesnar was the exact same weight as Carwin. Don’t fall into the trap that some of the less experienced posters do (not you) in thinking that it’s Lesnars size that causes him to dominate, that’s only a part of the equation.

It’s his (wrestling) ability, heart, endurance and power. Yea, he’s a little larger than the closest contenders and even greater than that with the rest. But, his size is no where near Sapps. The Sapp/Lesnar comparison is a dead one.[/quote]
LMAO your such a newb watch some PRIDE fights homie.

[IamMarqaos]

[quote]heavythrower wrote:
I will agree with the above statement. I am more of a boxing guy, as i have been a fan since i was a little boy and even boxed a little as a teen…but fighters are fighters… they never like to admit when they are beat, even when they are BEAT. and when on the rare occasion they do accept defeat, like carwin has so far, their team and fans make tons of excuses for them.

face it, most of the stuff i read up till this fight (with exception of the brock fan-boys) had Carwin as all the four horsemen of the apocalypse rolled into one, and he was gonna go in there and just knock brocks head off inside a few seconds and done.

but it did not work out that way, and now everybody is saying that either carwin is not that good, or that he should have won "only if ____ " insert excuse/mistake in the blank.

whatever. in a heavy weight boxing match, one lucky punch can win the fight at any time. in a heavy weight MMA match, where you have subs, knees, elbows, takedowns, AND 4 ounce gloves, that “anything can happen” rule gets multiplied by, oh, like 1000000000 times.

kinda like when i was a competitive thrower and weight lifter. I hit all sorts of great numbers in the gym and on the practice field while training, but only a few times i was able to put it all together and be my absolute best on competition day.

that is what made me mediocre at best. that is why lesnar won and carwin lost. lesnar was just the better man on that given night. both are big, athletic, and dangerous super-heavyweights. [/quote]

Very good post.

EDIT: ah, sorry, see that someone beat me to it. Still, great post.

[ZEB]

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
Nein, nein mein frommer Freund!

Mir has beefed up a bit, right. But he didn’t show us convincingly he can actually use that extra muscle, nowadays, he even talks about going down to lightheavy. So he’s not comfortable with it.
As for his boxing, it’s not that spectacular.
Even his most valiant supporters admit how sluggish Nogueira has become. And his style of boxing is WAY different then Fedors.
Fedor always stalks, his punches are bad intentions that find their mark and he will follow in to kill.
Mir takes his time and is terrible on the defense when pressured hard on the feet.
That fight would be a no brainer.

Sapp has probably more heart when it comes to taking punches. He competed against a lot of punching mosters.
He had enough training to not back down 100% against every flurry.

Also,
Lesnar and Sapp share one particular advantage:
If they turtle up (I mean generally, not the ground position) they are hard to finish because of the sheer size.

On the ground, it’ll be frustrating to come up with a solid tactic against that.
[/quote]

I think I get it, Fedor beats Nog and that makes Fedor invincible. Mir beats Nog and well, Nog had a bad night.

One more point, Bob Sapp at 6’ 5" and 350 pounds is quite a bit larger than Brock Lesnar. If you don’t think so then you are ignoring a a 2 inch and 85 pound advantage! Yet if Lesnar beat someone who was 2 inches shorter and 85 pounds lighter you would say he won because of his size, and you’d actually be right on that one!

Lesnar is quite a bit smaller than Sapp and really only marginally larger than his major opponents in the UFC. In fact he only had 15 pounds against Mir in their last fight. Lesnar was the exact same weight as Carwin. Don’t fall into the trap that some of the less experienced posters do (not you) in thinking that it’s Lesnars size that causes him to dominate, that’s only a part of the equation.

It’s his (wrestling) ability, heart, endurance and power. Yea, he’s a little larger than the closest contenders and even greater than that with the rest. But, his size is no where near Sapps. The Sapp/Lesnar comparison is a dead one.[/quote]

LMAO your such a newb watch some PRIDE fights homie.[/quote]

Ha ha I’m a “newb and a homie.” I like that. That is very good Internet talk, yes very good.

Anyway, I’ve said many times that Fedor is a great fighter. But, as I’ve also stated repeatedly he’d be lucky to be in the top 3 or 4 in the UFC. For starters he’s too small and would be overwhelmed by the talented big guys. Unless you think that giving up 3 inches in height and 35 pounds in weight means nothing. I’m not at all saying that he wouldn’t give them, or anyone a good fight. Nor do I disrespect him in any way for having a bad night against Fabricio Werdum. Just making a point that Fedor was a smart man for not signing with the UFC to begin with.

By the way take another look at the first Fedor/Coleman fight. If Fedor were fighting a more viable younger and larger wrestler like Lessnar, or Carwin he would not have made it through that round.

Signed: Newbie/homie

[sardines12]

Dude watch the Fedor Arlovski fight if Andre wouldn’t have thrown that flying knee he woulda won. Watch the Randleman fight if Kevin woulda been more composed he woulda won too. Look at the Lindland fight he got Fedor down and he’s only a MW. Cain is a small HW and top 3 in the UFC explain that please.

[heavythrower]

thanks!

[slimjim]

cmon zeb, who else besides lesnar and carwin (who would probably be considered ‘even’ in terms of oddsmaking) would be favored to beat fedor in the ufc?

it is a little ridiculous that the example you cite in displaying fedor’s vulnerability was a win for him, over a distinguished record while previously saying that lesnar’s first round does not show weakness, but a display of his grit. i mean the bias is insane, sometimes i honestly do not understand how you connect the dots in your arguments.

you said this earlier in response to a post:

And like I said to Boss, you are either giving Lesnar credit for being able to block, duck, or take the shots. Or, you are saying that Carwin was not good enough to hit him hard enough in the right place to end it. Which is it?

fedor beat an accomplished ncaa wrestler and a man who was physically larger and stronger than him, yet you point to some perception that coleman was in control of that fight until he got subbed, insinuating that lesnar - fedor would go down in similar fashion except that lesnar’s size and athletic ability would be the proving point? this is the first time i think ive heard the mmath logic applied towards someone’s victory.

ration,do you speak it? (homiey?)