Ufc 116

Training
81

[quote]Damici wrote:
Fedor has put that kind of punishment on guys for multiple rounds at a time without gassing.

Watch his fights versus Noguiera.

[quote]Proud_Virgin wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Another thing to consider is that Carwin clearly burned himself out trying to finish Brock in the first. It’s not necessarily that his conditioning sucked (although I would’ve expected it to be a little better from training at altitude), more so that he put all of his eggs (energy wise) into one basket and when it didn’t work out the way he expected he didn’t have really anything left.

No one is going to truly be able to give 100% effort and then be able to immediately continue working at a high work rate. Had he had another round or so I bet he would have been able to recover, but Brock was smart to not let him do so.

The adrenaline of fighting for the real title against the someone who could actually match him physically could have also contributed to him gassing.[/quote]

Yeah, I’m sure Carwin was well-conditioned, he just smelled blood and wanted to go in for the kill. No HW could throw bombs for a minute like that and not tire out…had Brock not been so popular and a titleholder, I’m sure the ref would have stopped it[/quote]
[/quote]

Again, it was the fact that he gave everything he had trying to finish Brock that resulted in him gassing. Fedor can sustain a very high work rate for extended periods of time. But, he isn’t going 100% when he does. He’s also outweighed by Carwin by at least 30 lbs (probably considerably more in terms of lean mass) which makes a difference.

82

Im sure i saw Leben tap when Akiyama had him up on his head like that. But that was a solid fight. Chins of steel both of them

83

[quote]Therizza wrote:
I was impressed by Carwin’s takedown defense in the 1st immensely. I don’t know if Cain could stuff one of Brock’s bullrush double legs.[/quote]

I agree, I was sure Brock had him, then at the last sec. he turned and both of them landed on the mat face first.

84

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

SIDENOTE Did anyone see The Rock backstage congratulating Brock? Looks like he’s got his testicles back after finishing Disney movies…he was fucking huge.[/quote]

haha, that’s cool, I didn’t see the rock, but i did catch a glimpse of goldberg, holy shit, that guy is just as big as brock is!

As for my opinion about the fight, being a big fan of brock, I was kinda ashamed that he just got his ass slaughtered in the first round, I thought he was done for. Then I noticed that carwin was completely exhausted before round 1 even ended. When brock took him down and got on top of him, it was all over. There’s simply nothing you can do when a human of such astonishing size, strength, and excellent wrestling skills is on top of you.

85

Great fights. I’m with the, “Cain Velasquez is the next champion” crowd.

86

I have not read all of the posts so forgive me if some of this has already been said.

It’s time for the Brock haters to suck it up and give him the credit he deserves.

He took everything that Carwin had to offer in the first round (and it was plenty) and came back to win. Moreover, did anyone notice how Lesnar came out smiling at the beginning of the 2nd round? Do any of you realize what it takes to come back from such a beating in the first round and come back smiling in teh second? That shows character and heart. He can dish it out and now we know that he can take it!

To those who say that Carwin would have won had he paced himself my question is how? He gave Lesnar his very best for 5:00 and could not stop him, how could he have stopped him had he scaled that effort down? Was he going to outbox him for 5 rounds? Not only is that not Carwins style, but Lesnar would have taken him down just as he did in the 2nd and the outcome would have been the same. Carwin fought the best fight that he could in a style that drove him to the very top of the game with a 12-0 record. Up to Lesnar (as you all know) Carwin had never been out of the first round, or even into the latter part of the first round.

To those who say Cain Velasquez will beat Lesnar I don’t see it happening. Velasquez is a good fighter and no disrespect to him. But, how is a less experienced, shorter, lighter guy with far less wrestling ability than either Carwin or Lesnar going to dethrone the champion? Is this magically supposed to happen because you don’t like Lesnar?

It’s time for Lesnar haters to give Brock Lesnar his due. He’s not just the champion because he’s bi. He can strike, (ask Couture and Herring who both hit the ground from one Lesnar punch). He’s by far the best wrestler in the HW division, and he has now shown his ability to be more than a (frank) mere (pun intended) ground and pounder, he’s grown by showing his submission of Shane Carwin!

We saw two things during that fight that were untested before regarding Lesnar: His heart which passed with flying colors. And his ability to use submissions effectively.

On top of all that I heard a different Brock Lesnar after the fight. He seemed a bit more humble thanking the people who helped him from his family and training partners to the doctors at the Mayo Clinic who helped him through his illness.

Brock Lesnar is going to be the UFC heavyweight champion for as long as he wants to, whether some of you like or not.

Zeb

87

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Not only is that not Carwins style, but Lesnar would have taken him down just as he did in the 2nd and the outcome would have been the same. [/quote]

So why couldn’t Brock take him down in the first??

And how can you even praise Lesnar’s striking ability after what we witnessed on Saturday??

88

[quote]ZEB wrote:
He can strike, (ask Couture and Herring who both hit the ground from one Lesnar punch). [/quote]

89

[quote]Damici wrote:

Does anyone REALLY think a guy like Fedor (yes, the guy who just lost due to stupid mistake) wouldn’t put on an utter clinic against these guys. [/quote]

I can’t agree with you my friend. Fedor would be lucky to break into the top 3 or 4 in the UFC. He stands barely 6 feet, and weighs in at a soft 229 pounds (Oh my gosh he said Fedor was soft). He’s a great fighter, no doubt, but guys like Lesnar, Carwin, Velasquez and yes even Frank Mir would all beat Fedor. The same guy who lost to werdum in 1:09 would get decimated against the top HW UFC fighters. “But he made a mistake against werdum.”

Yes he did, but I’ve seen many of Fedor’s fights including one against aging wrestler Coleman, who had Fedor in deep trouble but could not seal the deal because he is an aging wrestler…Fedor didn’t join the UFC for good reason… he’s a smart guy!

Now if he dropped to LHW, that would be an entirely different story. And judging by his body composition could easily make that transition if he wanted to actually fight the best in the world and possibly come out on top.

Zeb

90

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]ZEB wrote:

Not only is that not Carwins style, but Lesnar would have taken him down just as he did in the 2nd and the outcome would have been the same. [/quote]

So why couldn’t Brock take him down in the first??

And how can you even praise Lesnar’s striking ability after what we witnessed on Saturday??

[/quote]

I praised his striking ability because of what he did to Couture and Herring. He has power in those hands, that’s my point. Obviously, Carwin is a better striker, I think that was obvious. What many fans didn’t realize is that Lesnar has heart, can take a punch and has done some homework on submissions. He is no longer just a ground and pounder, that spells trouble for his future opponents doesn’t it?

He didn’t take down Carwin in the first because Carwin was fresh and showed a very good defense. However, are you claiming that if Carwin had slowed down his pace he could have fended off Lesnar’s takedowns for five full rounds?

Granted he went at him full bore in the first, but if he paced himself and put forth 50%, or even 75% of that effort he would not have stopped Lesnar, and by the end of the second or third he would have still been gassing. And then he would have been on the ground by at least the fourth, if not sooner and the same result would have taken place.

What Carwin and his people knew is that Carwin’s best chance to win the fight was to do exactly what he did. Granted it didn’t work, but it almost did. Any other strategy would only have prolonged the inevitable, and not given Carwin his best opportunity. Look at his record, he knows how he can win fights and he went out and did what he knows how to do. Did anyone think he was going to do anything different, or should have?

Carwin is not the guy to beat Lesnar and he never was! Put a tape measure around Lesnars head and neck. Add that to his shear size, which always plays a role in any fight. There was a far better than 50/50 chance that Lesnar was going to be able to deflect, or withstand most of Carwin’s punches, which he did. In fact, Carwin kept up a more torrid pace, and came closer to beating Lesnar than I originally thought, he’s one very bad dude.

91

I’m a big Fedor fan, but I’m also a realist - a weight advantage is a serious factor.
Same thing with age.
I already stated here once or twice that I expected Fedor to resign some time ago.
As the greatest eveer, he has nothing to prove and his motivation is lacking.

However, ZEB, Mir isn’t in Fedor’s league by a longshot.
That is hard to debate seriously.

As for the current “champs”, we saw how magnificent their performance was.
I don’t care what excuses Carwin has, his cardio/conditioning/endurance whatever sucks, plain and simple.
No champion here.

Lesnar is a masstrick-pony, a hyperathlete mostrosity of the neo-steroid age, the golden udder milked silly by Dana’s greedy hands. His defense was laughable. It exposes the ridiculous absence of a superheavyweight class.

Bob Sapp with good wrestling. Yes, the comparison stands, not only in terms of sheer meat.
Sapp was a megastar in Japan thanks to his freakyness; Lesnar is so marketable because the Prowrestling freakshow gave him the necessary fame and exposure that makes it so lucrative for White to promote his golden cow while denouncing Fedor.

92

yeah, i gotta weigh in on the side of fedor a bit here too. i think carwin would present a bigger problem for fedor simply due to his ability to strike, but i also think lesnar would probably beat him as well - however, if fedor had hurt lesnar the way carwin had, im pretty sure he wouldve found a way to keep him grounded.

to say that fedor wouldnt compete in the ufc’s hw division is a stretch, as im pretty sure he would stretch pretty much everyone besides carwin and lesnar. everyone makes mistakes and to diminish his abilities because he got triangled by a legit hw contender and bjj world champion in werdum is a little too much.

93

[quote]Shipshape wrote:
Im sure i saw Leben tap when Akiyama had him up on his head like that. But that was a solid fight. Chins of steel both of them[/quote]

chris dont tap

94

on a semi-related note, while lesnar displayed a ton of grit and heart (in addition to what must be the most rock solid chin in mma) i have a little trouble crowning him the world champ given that first round display of striking and laying up against the fence…i mean shit dude, carwin reached for that right lesnar threw…it was the first minute of the first round, feint brotha! feint!

95

[quote]Schwarzfahrer wrote:
I’m a big Fedor fan, but I’m also a realist - a weight advantage is a serious factor.
Same thing with age.
I already stated here once or twice that I expected Fedor to resign some time ago.
As the greatest eveer, he has nothing to prove and his motivation is lacking.

However, ZEB, Mir isn’t in Fedor’s league by a longshot.
That is hard to debate seriously.

As for the current “champs”, we saw how magnificent their performance was.
I don’t care what excuses Carwin has, his cardio/conditioning/endurance whatever sucks, plain and simple.
No champion here.

Lesnar is a masstrick-pony, a hyperathlete mostrosity of the neo-steroid age, the golden udder milked silly by Dana’s greedy hands. His defense was laughable. It exposes the ridiculous absence of a superheavyweight class.

Bob Sapp with good wrestling. Yes, the comparison stands, not only in terms of sheer meat.
Sapp was a megastar in Japan thanks to his freakyness; Lesnar is so marketable because the Prowrestling freakshow gave him the necessary fame and exposure that makes it so lucrative for White to promote his golden cow while denouncing Fedor.
[/quote]

No, no, no my friend!

Compare Mir’s size with Fedor’s. Mir is also dangerous on his feet (ask Nogueira). And if it hits the ground Mir would do quite well against Fedor. I’m not saying it’s a lock, but I’d bet on Mir over Fedor. Just as I bet on Lesnar over Carwin.

As for the Sapp, Lesnar comparison you are far off. Sapp has no heart and can be beaten into submission easily, and has been by much smaller men. Lesnar on the other hand is a world class division I wrestler with an abundance of heart. Anyone who saw him smiling after round one with Carwin must agree.

As for your castigation of Dana White regarding his milking of the Lesnar phenomenon, I agree. However, to White’s credit, he recognized both Lesnar’s fighting and gate promoting potential before anyone else. And isn’t that what good entrepreneurship is all about? Recognizing an opportunity and exploiting it to maximum efficiency? Yea, it is. I still don’t like White as he vastly underpays the majority of fighters, but that’s another argument for another thread.

Zeb

96

[quote]slimjim wrote:
on a semi-related note, while lesnar displayed a ton of grit and heart (in addition to what must be the most rock solid chin in mma) i have a little trouble crowning him the world champ given that first round display of striking and laying up against the fence…i mean shit dude, carwin reached for that right lesnar threw…it was the first minute of the first round, feint brotha! feint![/quote]

I would definitely agree that Lesnar’s weakest area is his striking. But, he was also facing quite possibly the most dangerous striker in the UFC’s HW division (debatable I realize), which probably had him a little overcautious about committing to his strikes. Also, if Carwin was unable to finish/KO him, then it would be surprising if anyone else in the division could do so either.

So, you have to ask yourself who in the HW division (in any organization) is going to be able to:

  1. outstrike him, with enough force behind their punches to finish him
    and/or
  2. be able to either stop his takedowns if they are outstriking him, or take him down and out grappling him?

I think maybe Overeem, possibly Arlovski, maybe Fedor (but we’ll have to wait till we see how/if he bounces back), and maybe Brett Rogers (might be more but that’s the ones that come to mind atm) have enough striking skill and power to outstrike him and possibly KO him. But I don’t think that any of them could stop him from taking them down at will. So he’d just outwrestle them.

I think that Nog, Werdum, Barnett, Nelson, or maybe Fedor could catch him in a submission (though Fedor’s only real chance would be an armbar, and Brock would likely be waiting for that), but I don’t know that any of them could stop him from taking them down and getting to a dominant position.

Maybe Cain can take him down if his timing is perfect. But I doubt he’ll be able to keep him there even if he does.

With that in mind, I don’t really know how you can’t give him credit for being the best HW atm. At least stylistically he looks like he could match up favorably with any HW in the game atm. Anyone can get caught of course (just ask Fedor).

97

Nein, nein mein frommer Freund!

Mir has beefed up a bit, right. But he didn’t show us convincingly he can actually use that extra muscle, nowadays, he even talks about going down to lightheavy. So he’s not comfortable with it.
As for his boxing, it’s not that spectacular.
Even his most valiant supporters admit how sluggish Nogueira has become. And his style of boxing is WAY different then Fedors.
Fedor always stalks, his punches are bad intentions that find their mark and he will follow in to kill.
Mir takes his time and is terrible on the defense when pressured hard on the feet.
That fight would be a no brainer.

Sapp has probably more heart when it comes to taking punches. He competed against a lot of punching mosters.
He had enough training to not back down 100% against every flurry.

Also,
Lesnar and Sapp share one particular advantage:
If they turtle up (I mean generally, not the ground position) they are hard to finish because of the sheer size.

On the ground, it’ll be frustrating to come up with a solid tactic against that.

98

[quote]ZEB wrote:
What many fans didn’t realize is that Lesnar has heart, can take a punch and has done some homework on submissions.
[/quote]

Many fans(even the haters) didn’t expect him to turn ass and ball up from Carwin. That wasn’t heart…that was survival. The supposed #1 HW in the world should not be giving his ass up so quickly and not standing their ground. And how advanced is an arm triangle that “homework” is needed? I give him props for improving and going for the sub,but let’s not act live he’s found this in-depth submission game.

Hindsight…is easy. Of course you say all of that now…cheap. Far better than 50/50 chance Lesnar would withstand his punches,my ass…lol. Every person who watched that fight knew Lesnar had a high chance of losing to Carwin the first minute of the fight. Lesnar didn’t withstand any clean shots except for the looping uppercut and the smashing elbow on ground(which I think flash KO’d him).

Yeah,that big ass neck did play a role in him not getting KTFO…but let’s not kid ourselves. If Carwin had caught Brock on the button like he did Gonzaga…he would still be sleeping. It’s not like he ate shots like Cain did against Kongo.

I give props to Lesnar for not giving up and staying in the fight…but let’s not tug on his nuts even further and act as if he didn’t have the horseshoe up his ass this time.

99

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]slimjim wrote:
on a semi-related note, while lesnar displayed a ton of grit and heart (in addition to what must be the most rock solid chin in mma) i have a little trouble crowning him the world champ given that first round display of striking and laying up against the fence…i mean shit dude, carwin reached for that right lesnar threw…it was the first minute of the first round, feint brotha! feint![/quote]

I would definitely agree that Lesnar’s weakest area is his striking. But, he was also facing quite possibly the most dangerous striker in the UFC’s HW division (debatable I realize), which probably had him a little overcautious about committing to his strikes. Also, if Carwin was unable to finish/KO him, then it would be surprising if anyone else in the division could do so either.

So, you have to ask yourself who in the HW division (in any organization) is going to be able to:

  1. outstrike him, with enough force behind their punches to finish him
    and/or
  2. be able to either stop his takedowns if they are outstriking him, or take him down and out grappling him?

I think maybe Overeem, possibly Arlovski, maybe Fedor (but we’ll have to wait till we see how/if he bounces back), and maybe Brett Rogers (might be more but that’s the ones that come to mind atm) have enough striking skill and power to outstrike him and possibly KO him. But I don’t think that any of them could stop him from taking them down at will. So he’d just outwrestle them.

I think that Nog, Werdum, Barnett, Nelson, or maybe Fedor could catch him in a submission (though Fedor’s only real chance would be an armbar, and Brock would likely be waiting for that), but I don’t know that any of them could stop him from taking them down and getting to a dominant position.

Maybe Cain can take him down if his timing is perfect. But I doubt he’ll be able to keep him there even if he does.

With that in mind, I don’t really know how you can’t give him credit for being the best HW atm. At least stylistically he looks like he could match up favorably with any HW in the game atm. Anyone can get caught of course (just ask Fedor).[/quote]
An Overeem knee would KO anyone and I mean anyone in mma. Watching what he did to Texeira, Fujita and Poturak, I mean they were out cold for a long ass time.
I see Cain as a more skilled HW version of Jon Fitch, he’s one of those grinders and I think he can get Brock down for sure and get up himself if he’s taken down. Cain competed at HW in wrestling so him being the small guy hasn’t really been an issuefor him he’s used to it and feels his quickness, conditioning and skill allow him to compete with bigger fighters. THis fight is more interesting than Carwin Lesnar to me mostly because of the hype Cain has received and not from the media. People who train with him say this guy is a prodigy at mma. Should be good.
And who knows if Fedor would beat these guys, but quite writing him off it would at the very least be very competitive. I’m not saying he would win against the supposed new breed of fighter but he definitely would not lose to all of them.

100

I’m more bewildered by the fact that Sexyama got subbed by LEBEN for christ sake, but give props to where it is due, Leben was a warrior, he was losing a decision there if he hadn’t locked that triangle.

As For Lesnar and Carwin, please let’s just stop, it’s pitiful to see those 2 robots being marketed as the 2 top HW in the world, Fedor, Overeem would just steamroll trough them.