Ufc 116

Training
181

[quote]sardines12 wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]Big_Boss wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:

[quote]WhiteFlash wrote:
Zeb’s Brock loving is bordering on ridiculous. Carwin gassed himself, and like Boss said if he connected a clean right [or anything other than that uppercut, really] Lesnar would still be out. But, I will say that Lesnar impressed me with his ability to hang tough and sink the sub. Sinking the sub had a lot more to do with Carwin being completely exhausted than Lesnar’s awesome jiu-jitsu, but he still got it. But if - and think it’s safe to say it’ll happen - they fight again Lesnar’s getting ko’d in the 1st. I think even he knows he barely snuck outta that one.[/quote]

If means nothing. If we didn’t fumble, or if we didn’t get hit on the chin, or if I connected, but I didn’t.

Carwin couldn’t finish him and got submitted. That is the thing we call reality.[/quote]

Of course it’s reality if you watched the fight. It wasn’t make-believe before our eyes…lol. But there are details of the fight that are also “reality” and worthy of a discussion on either side of the spectrum…on a discussion forum…about combat sports.

Like…for example…“what if” Lesnar had decent stand-up?? Tell me that means nothing for his match against Velasquez…and a possible rematch against Carwin. [/quote]

And Lesner will pound Cain Velasquez. He is tougher and bigger and stronger and can fight well enough.

This is one thing you fighting dorks miss. Some guys are just tougher and stronger and will pound your ass no matter “your skill” level.

Lesner is one of those guys. And he also is a great athlete and great wrestler. Mike Tyson has a saying, " everyone has a plan until they get punched in the face".[/quote]
Oh God fight it guys, don’t feed him.[/quote]

Don’t have to…he knows more about ass-pounding than us “fight dorks.” I’m fine with that.

182

In certain things i do. Athletic skill in sport is one thing , but it is not bigger or better than physical abilities. They go hand in hand. And they are both important.

Take the WNBA. Some of these gals are technically better at basket skills than NBA stars. who who dominate them ridiculously.

There’s no magic to fighting arts. Big , strong in shape guys who actually learn something can be very dangerous. Like an ex NCAA D1 champ who is a physical beast.

In Sam Sheridan’s latest book, or maybe it was the book about Pat Miletech that I recently read they commented that no fight training was as tough as wrestling training. These guys are a different breed.

Then you take a genetic freak like Lesner and have him also train mma and you get what you’ve seen.

I’m amazed at the dislike that people have here and how it blinds them to what he does. I don’t see this type of silliness on any strength forum.

My guy deadlifted 850, your guy did 750. Yeah, so, my guy’s technique is better and if he he only did 150 pounds more, blah, blah.

183

lmao go away

184

damn, it’s about time someone came in and broke it down for us, size and strength DO matter…epiphany!

185

I love how lunch box hands brings out the best in everyone.

If you dont see this kind of dislike on any ‘strength forum’…
I’m going to say that your internet must be broken.

186

tom63,

You have to understand the basic mentality that is prevalent with many (not all) posters on this board regarding Lesnar. It goes something like this: I don’t like Lesnar he’s a jerk, a big stupid jerk, so he has no talent. When he wins it’s luck. I can’t wait for him to lose. He doesn’t deserve to be champion.

Simple huh?

187

[quote]tom63 wrote:
In certain things i do. Athletic skill in sport is one thing , but it is not bigger or better than physical abilities. They go hand in hand. And they are both important.

Take the WNBA. Some of these gals are technically better at basket skills than NBA stars. who who dominate them ridiculously.

There’s no magic to fighting arts. Big , strong in shape guys who actually learn something can be very dangerous. Like an ex NCAA D1 champ who is a physical beast.

In Sam Sheridan’s latest book, or maybe it was the book about Pat Miletech that I recently read they commented that no fight training was as tough as wrestling training. These guys are a different breed.

Then you take a genetic freak like Lesner and have him also train mma and you get what you’ve seen.

I’m amazed at the dislike that people have here and how it blinds them to what he does. I don’t see this type of silliness on any strength forum.

My guy deadlifted 850, your guy did 750. Yeah, so, my guy’s technique is better and if he he only did 150 pounds more, blah, blah.[/quote]

I’m sorry, but there’s not a women in the WNBA who is more “technically sound” than her NBA counterpart. Just 'cause she throws two-hand chest passes and shoots 20 foot set shots doesn’t mean she has more technical ability.

188

He is simply too big and strong for most people to fight. All of the fancy Jiu-jitsu tricks in the world won’t save you when he holds you absolutely still so that you can’t move at all, as Mir found. Carwin’s only shot was to knock him out while Brock still believed he could stand with him. Lesnar has a hell of a coach as well. Everything he does plays to his strengths: his wrestling background gives him a dominant takedown ability, with the ability to keep his man down on his back, and his monster strength allows him to hold other grapplers in place and manhandle them while he dents their skulls. He tried to punch with a better puncher, and got damn lucky he didn’t lose the fight. He completely abandoned that as soon as the second round started, and played his strengths, and squeezed Carwin’s neck with his monster arms until he was no longer able to breath.

There is no real mystery to how he wins- he is the bigger, stronger, and better fighter than his opponent, and he beats on them until they give him their lunch money, completely the opposite of a fighter like Anderson Silva, who is so good you need to slow the fight down to really appreciate his skill.

The great thing about combat sports, however, is that skill does not make a fighter better than his opponent. The better fighter is the one left standing after all of the ruckus is done. The same goes for strength sports; the better lifter is the one who lifts the bigger weight. There is no mystery about it, no “But I had superior technique, a better suit, and a $10,000 a month supplement bill, but he just got lucky” in powerlifting meets, the weights speak for themselves.

189

[quote]grayman19 wrote:
He is simply too big and strong for most people to fight. All of the fancy Jiu-jitsu tricks in the world won’t save you when he holds you absolutely still so that you can’t move at all, as Mir found. Carwin’s only shot was to knock him out while Brock still believed he could stand with him. Lesnar has a hell of a coach as well. Everything he does plays to his strengths: his wrestling background gives him a dominant takedown ability, with the ability to keep his man down on his back, and his monster strength allows him to hold other grapplers in place and manhandle them while he dents their skulls. He tried to punch with a better puncher, and got damn lucky he didn’t lose the fight. He completely abandoned that as soon as the second round started, and played his strengths, and squeezed Carwin’s neck with his monster arms until he was no longer able to breath.

There is no real mystery to how he wins- he is the bigger, stronger, and better fighter than his opponent, and he beats on them until they give him their lunch money, completely the opposite of a fighter like Anderson Silva, who is so good you need to slow the fight down to really appreciate his skill.

The great thing about combat sports, however, is that skill does not make a fighter better than his opponent. The better fighter is the one left standing after all of the ruckus is done. The same goes for strength sports; the better lifter is the one who lifts the bigger weight. There is no mystery about it, no “But I had superior technique, a better suit, and a $10,000 a month supplement bill, but he just got lucky” in powerlifting meets, the weights speak for themselves.[/quote]

Exactly, very well said.

190

Bob Sapp

191

Between Cain and Brock, from what they’ve showed in their last two fights, I’d say Cain has both the crisper, more technical, and faster improving standup. He wins if he can keep it off the ground, which isn’t that much of a stretch. Lesnar has the longer reach, and can possibly polish off his standup to strike with Cain, but as of right now I have my doubts on whether he can hang on the feet.
If it does hit the ground, I suspect Cain will be fucked, given that he’s never been on his back in a fight, and has no one in AKA to replicate the 280lbs bag of muscle that is Lesnar. On the flipside he has had trouble holding guys down in an optimal position to strike.
Lesnar on the other hand has no problems with top control (looks borderline smothering). If he gets on top, ala Frank Mir, Cain is done.

I’m liking the direction Lesnar is going with his style, but if Cain can pull off what Randy did, minus the knockdown, plus superior boxing, I can see him decisioning Lesnar (KO? fuck that. If Carwin can’t finish you after rocking your ass, no one can).

192

Brock is about 20 pounds lighter now.
Danie Cormier, and Mark Ellis train with Cain.
KO no TKO maybe.
I’m not sold on Brock’s top control, Heath Herring survived didn’t Randy get up from the bottom.

193

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Brock is about 20 pounds lighter now.
Danie Cormier, and Mark Ellis train with Cain.
KO no TKO maybe.
I’m not sold on Brock’s top control, Heath Herring survived didn’t Randy get up from the bottom. [/quote]

Those are some great training partners to have. It’s still practically impossible to replicate Lesnar’s sheer size, strength, agility, quickness and skill though. I’m sure that Dan and Mark are very technically skilled wrestlers and quite possibly even more technically skilled than Lesnar (Dan being the US Olympic team captain), but guys who also possess Lesnar’s physical attributes are pretty tough to come by.

Also, Heath Herring was Lesnar’s 1st fight in the UFC, and only 2nd fight period. I’d say it’s a pretty safe bet that his skills have improved since that time. Randy did get up from the bottom and I’d say that’s a more accurate comparison to Cain.

I think that Cain will get back to his feet at least once and I think that he has as good of a chance of KO’ing Brock as anyone (as evidenced by that vicious KO he laid on Nog). Probably doesn’t have the ability to KO him in one punch like Carwin, but accumulated over 5 rounds maybe. He’s definitely got quicker hands than Shane and as someone mentioned above looks to have very crisp boxing skills.

The questions are:

  1. can he repeatedly get back to his feet without taking substantial damage from Lesnar?

  2. is Lesnar going to even try to stand with him, or has he learned from his fight with Carwin and plans to play to his strengths?

  3. can he wear Brock out over the 5 rounds by continuing to fight his way back up to his feet and slowly chip away at Lesnar with strikes once he gets there?

  4. can he take Brock down and put him on his back?

194

Those are very good points sentoguy. However, I don’t see any fight with Lesner going five full rounds. With his take down ability combined with his strength and weight, the other guy us going to tire. He’ll then make a mistake and the fight is over,.

Lesner has to make a mistake or walk into a punch early.

195

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Those are very good points sentoguy. However, I don’t see any fight with Lesner going five full rounds. With his take down ability combined with his strength and weight, the other guy us going to tire. He’ll then make a mistake and the fight is over,.

Lesner has to make a mistake or walk into a punch early.[/quote]

i picture you like one of those golf ball cleaners found on most courses, except the golf balls are lesnars testicles

196

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

Also, Heath Herring was Lesnar’s 1st fight in the UFC, and only 2nd fight period.[/quote]

Actually, Herrnig was Lesnar’s 2nd fight in the UFC after losing to Mir in a leg lock. It was his 3rd fight in mma.

I agree with you completely. Lesnar gets better every fight. Could anyone have imagined that Lesnar would be using a submission? We also now know that he has a strong chin and a will that won’t quit.

Not a bad read. He may get to his feet more than once. But, I don’t see how he can stop Lesnar from taking him down. It won’t be anything like a GSP/Hardy, which was a takedown clinic. Will Cain be taken down at will? No, Cain is no Dan Hardy, he has solid wrestling ability, albeit inferior to Lesnar’s, he is still able to mount a defese, at least early.

I don’t see him being able to strike him for 5 rounds without getting taken down and punished.

Cains hands are lightning! And early in the fight when they’re still fast is the time for Cain to strike (literally). However, attacking a fresh Brock Lesnar may have deleterious consequences. The way for Cain to win is to punch and move. If he gets overly aggressive early, he’ll pay a price just as Carwin did. The big difference will be Cain not coming so close to victory as did Carwin.

[quote]The questions are:

  1. can he repeatedly get back to his feet without taking substantial damage from Lesnar?[/quote]

No, can anyone? Also, repeated takedowns with only minimal punishment will hand Lesnar the victory, unless he is able to seriously score with his hands on the feet.

Safe to say that Lesnar will not try to box with him. I think he’ll duck, cover and shoot.

Judging by his wrestling matches no one wears Brock Lesnar out. I have also heard from other sources that his cardio is incredible for such a big man.

That is a great question. If I were Cain I’d be thinking about that strategy. In fact, weeks before the Lesnar/Carwin fight, I thought Carwin might abandon his charge and punch strategy when facing Lesnar to do that very thing. But then I realized that most winning fighters will not abandon a winning strategy, unless they are getting some very serious advice from well trusted, or highly paid trainers and strategists. Who is working with Cain, do you know? This means that he’d have to lose to him at least once in order to change what has been working. The second Carwin fight you may see Carwin shoot. Cain shooting? I highly doubt it.

It’s far too early to call a winner on this one, but Lesnar does look like the favorite.

197

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Those are very good points sentoguy. However, I don’t see any fight with Lesner going five full rounds. With his take down ability combined with his strength and weight, the other guy us going to tire. He’ll then make a mistake and the fight is over,.

Lesner has to make a mistake or walk into a punch early.[/quote]

Not a bad read. Herring went the distance with Lesnar, but it was only Lesnar’s 3rd mma fight. In addition to this if it were a 5 round fight it most assuredly would have been stopped before the final round was over. Herring was getting his head handed to him.

The potential is there for Velasquez to win. He certainly has a punchers chance. He also has some notable wrestling skills which should not be underestimated by Lesnar. We all saw Lesnar try to take a fresh Shane Carwin down in the first round and he was unsuccessful. Granted, that could have been from a bit of “ring rust” due to his one year of inactivity from the octagon, and the fact that he was sick for several months during his time away. It could also have been due to the fact that Carwin had a better takedown defense (when fresh) than Lesnar’s attack. We won’t know until they meet again, which they most probably will at some point.

198

[quote]DieselAllDay wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Those are very good points sentoguy. However, I don’t see any fight with Lesner going five full rounds. With his take down ability combined with his strength and weight, the other guy us going to tire. He’ll then make a mistake and the fight is over,.

Lesner has to make a mistake or walk into a punch early.[/quote]

i picture you like one of those golf ball cleaners found on most courses, except the golf balls are lesnars testicles[/quote]

There are really only three types of people who post crap like this. The first is a teen who thinks that because a poster likes one fighter over another and posts approvingly of that fighter that he (the poster) is deserving of some off the cuff gay remark. The second is an ignorant, uninformed person who likes to hang around mma circles but doesn’t really know what’s going on. The third, and most popular around here it seems, is the Brock Lesnar haters. It doesn’t matter what anyone says about Lesnar if it’s good then some sort of derogatory comment is thrown in their direction.

Which are you?

199

[quote]ZEB wrote:

[quote]tom63 wrote:
Those are very good points sentoguy. However, I don’t see any fight with Lesner going five full rounds. With his take down ability combined with his strength and weight, the other guy us going to tire. He’ll then make a mistake and the fight is over,.

Lesner has to make a mistake or walk into a punch early.[/quote]

Not a bad read. Herring went the distance with Lesnar, but it was only Lesnar’s 3rd mma fight. In addition to this if it were a 5 round fight it most assuredly would have been stopped before the final round was over. Herring was getting his head handed to him.

The potential is there for Velasquez to win. He certainly has a punchers chance. He also has some notable wrestling skills which should not be underestimated by Lesnar. We all saw Lesnar try to take a fresh Shane Carwin down in the first round and he was unsuccessful. Granted, that could have been from a bit of “ring rust” due to his one year of inactivity from the octagon, and the fact that he was sick for several months during his time away. It could also have been due to the fact that Carwin had a better takedown defense (when fresh) than Lesnar’s attack. We won’t know until they meet again, which they most probably will at some point.[/quote]

You’re right Zeb, anyone has a puncher’s chance. But Lesner is just hard to beat. His strength and conditioning are fantastic for a big guy. I haven’t not fought much and wrestled briefly, but I know they’re hard. And to see a 265+ lb guy have all these physical gifts is plain scary. I don’t see why this gets everyone’s panties in such a bunch.

200

[quote]sardines12 wrote:
Brock is about 20 pounds lighter now.
Danie Cormier, and Mark Ellis train with Cain.
KO no TKO maybe.
I’m not sold on Brock’s top control, Heath Herring survived didn’t Randy get up from the bottom. [/quote]

If he’s 20lbs lighter he’d be sitting at 270 now, which doesn’t really change much.
As Sento stated, Heath was an early fight and happened some time ago. The Randy fight is a better indicator.

Watching that fight again, Randy got out twice in the first round, and both times it came down to what I view as a technical error (correct me if I’m wrong). When in half guard, Brock tried to pin Randy’s arm with his free knee, presumably to rain GnP. This loosened control on Randy’s left shoulder, and allowed him to roll towards Brock. The first time, Randy created space and created a scramble off a failed mount attempt, the second time he got to his knees. All this off a single mistake.

Now this was corrected in the Mir fight, where he kept his same side under hook in half guard and used wrist control to get Mir’s head in a good position to strike. It was a fresh take on the half mount and solved the issues he had in his last fight. Watching that showed me the guy is still evolving. I wouldn’t say I’m sold on his top control, but his half mount is impressive, and he’s shown he knows how to use his weight and stop scrambles (which is what hurt him against Couture).