Truth About Bulking and Dave Tate

Training Bodybuilding
81

[quote]Roland Fisher wrote:
Monopoly19 wrote:
Roland Fisher wrote:
CaliforniaLaw wrote:
Read about “Dee”:
http://asp.elitefts.com/qa/default.asp?qid=46988&tid=124

Funny as hell, thanks!

Where did the article say that Dee needed to gain fat? It didn’t, it said Dee needed to gain weight to get stronger.

Roland

It’s one in the same.
Really? Gaining fat and gaining weight is one and the same? If that were true, the best way would be to eat until you puke, then keep eating. The choices should be the highest of calories as well. By doing this we would gain as much weight as possible and this would make us look just like Dave Tate does now I guess. I’d rather gain muscle than fat, maybe you like fat. Am I afraid of fat? Nope, I’m just not going to focus on it, I’m going to focus on muscle gain. Will some fat come with the muscle gain? Yes, it has for me at least. The difference between focusing on weight or focusing on muscle is that I might gain 4 pounds of muscle for every 1 pound of fat by focusing on muscle. In the exact same amount of time, if I focus on weight, I may gain 4 pounds of muscle for every 7 pounds of fat. Which is better? Don’t answer, it’s rhetorical. Are these numbers pulled out of the air? Nope, I’ve done both scenarios, those are from experience. It really isn’t that hard to measure your body comp. once a month and keep a training log. If performance is slipping and I’m not getting more muscle, it’s time to add calories.

Muscle gain is going to come with some fat gain.
I doesn’t have to, but it easier, and probably quicker to.

I love CT’s stuff, but to say that you shouldn’t bulk over 10% is fuggin crazy. It would take most people 10 years to put on 10lbs.
Who cares about most people? Most people don’t even train. For those of us who do, it doesn’t take much effort to measure body comp once every two weeks or month. It doesn’t take much effort to log the workouts either. By doing so we can know that by eating x calories a day we gained y muscle and z fat. When we don’t gain at our max anymore, add calories, when we gain more fat than before without more muscle being added, drop calories. Simple.

Monopoly

EDIT: Thanks for clearing that up CT, I hadn’t made it all the way through yet.

So you post first and read second, try the opposite.
Roland.[/quote]

Roland:

Your profile says you are 6 feet and 185. Your posts make it sound like you have a high degree of confidence in your knowledge about how to build muscle. Something’s wrong here.

The fact is that unless someone has gone through it themself, actually building a large amount of muscle mass, they have no place talking as though they are some kind of flippin expert.

You are not saying anything that I can’t read in an article on this site; only the people who write for this site say it much better, have some credibility, and either carry some muscle themselves, or have shown they can put it on other people.

This is a great website. It has more information than anyone could ever use in a training career. But this is the downside. I guess it goes along with the fact that the site is supported by a supplement company trying to increase its customer base, but you end up with a bunch of schmoes who have no idea what they’re talking about lecturing people. It’s absurd.

All you can do, I guess, is ask people not to offer training and nutritional instruction unless they are qualified. It wouldn’t work of course, because people read some articles and think they are strength coaches. It’s profoundly irritating.

I think it would be good manners, at least, if before offering your insights into training, nutritional, or other intracacies related to physique/performance enhancement, you provide some small indication of why your opinion is worth anything at all.

Too harsh? Maybe. But this is getting ridiculous. I remember when there were serious strength athletes who frequented this site regularly. There are still a few, but nothing like the old days. And all you armchair lifters, all you people who are 6’0, 185 trying to teach people how to build muscle, you are the reason why. Hope it makes you happy.

82

[quote]Zap Branigan wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
Roy wrote:

I honestly, despite what many believe, think that Mcquay has used gear in the past, like most people his size.

are you saying that a lot of people on T-Nation think stan is natural?

Of course he is. Hard training, Biotest supplements and nightly prayers.[/quote]

haha exactly. just checking…

83

[quote]Ramo wrote:

Roland:

Your profile says you are 6 feet and 185. Your posts make it sound like you have a high degree of confidence in your knowledge about how to build muscle. Something’s wrong here.

The fact is that unless someone has gone through it themself, actually building a large amount of muscle mass, they have no place talking as though they are some kind of flippin expert.

You are not saying anything that I can’t read in an article on this site; only the people who write for this site say it much better, have some credibility, and either carry some muscle themselves, or have shown they can put it on other people.

This is a great website. It has more information than anyone could ever use in a training career. But this is the downside. I guess it goes along with the fact that the site is supported by a supplement company trying to increase its customer base, but you end up with a bunch of schmoes who have no idea what they’re talking about lecturing people. It’s absurd.

All you can do, I guess, is ask people not to offer training and nutritional instruction unless they are qualified. It wouldn’t work of course, because people read some articles and think they are strength coaches. It’s profoundly irritating.

I think it would be good manners, at least, if before offering your insights into training, nutritional, or other intracacies related to physique/performance enhancement, you provide some small indication of why your opinion is worth anything at all.

Too harsh? Maybe. But this is getting ridiculous. I remember when there were serious strength athletes who frequented this site regularly. There are still a few, but nothing like the old days. And all you armchair lifters, all you people who are 6’0, 185 trying to teach people how to build muscle, you are the reason why. Hope it makes you happy.[/quote]

Best. Post. It kept me from writing something similar. The last thing I need is lifting advice from someone who is smaller than I was after one year of training seriously. It seems as if the ones screaming about how much muscle they can gain while never gaining any body fat at all are carrying the LEAST amount of muscle.

84

[quote]Ramo wrote:

Roland:

Your profile says you are 6 feet and 185.
[/quote]

I weighed that much after 1 SUMMER of serious training. I await the excuses.

86

I reiterate what I said earlier in this thread. Directed at anybody with an ab fixation.

You do it your way and I’ll do it mine. I do not now nor will I ever have at my age the size of some these younger guys, but I’ve been through this before and I guarantee you right now I’ll have more impressive gains by any objective standard a year from now. I don’t mean sloppy, jiggly size. I’ll post my pics and you be the judge. It’ll be obvious.

I don’t mean do denigrate anybody,s progress, I really don’t mean it that way, but right in this thread are people thrilled with “10-12 pounds in a year with no fat gain”. I’ve gained more lean mass than that in 1/3 less time with a lot of disadvantages. Trust me, I know the difference between fat and muscle.

It’ll be good motivation. I welcome the challenge.

87

[quote]Ramo wrote:
Roland:

Your profile says you are 6 feet and 185. Your posts make it sound like you have a high degree of confidence in your knowledge about how to build muscle. Something’s wrong here.

The fact is that unless someone has gone through it themself, actually building a large amount of muscle mass, they have no place talking as though they are some kind of flippin expert.

You are not saying anything that I can’t read in an article on this site; only the people who write for this site say it much better, have some credibility, and either carry some muscle themselves, or have shown they can put it on other people.

This is a great website. It has more information than anyone could ever use in a training career. But this is the downside. I guess it goes along with the fact that the site is supported by a supplement company trying to increase its customer base, but you end up with a bunch of schmoes who have no idea what they’re talking about lecturing people. It’s absurd.

All you can do, I guess, is ask people not to offer training and nutritional instruction unless they are qualified. It wouldn’t work of course, because people read some articles and think they are strength coaches. It’s profoundly irritating.

I think it would be good manners, at least, if before offering your insights into training, nutritional, or other intracacies related to physique/performance enhancement, you provide some small indication of why your opinion is worth anything at all.

Too harsh? Maybe. But this is getting ridiculous. I remember when there were serious strength athletes who frequented this site regularly. There are still a few, but nothing like the old days. And all you armchair lifters, all you people who are 6’0, 185 trying to teach people how to build muscle, you are the reason why. Hope it makes you happy.[/quote]

I have a feeling this post is going to get quoted on a daily basis. It is probably one of the best ones I’ve ever read on this site. Hell I’ve been guilty of offering advice to bigger guys and I still like this post. At least I’m not scrawny though, not even a little.

Nice post Ramo.

88

Sometimes the best NBA players don’t make great coaches, and most coaches of any sport probably wouldn’t make great players.

Everyone here thinks they’re Larry Bird.

89

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
Sometimes the best NBA players don’t make great coaches, and most coaches of any sport probably wouldn’t make great players.

Everyone here thinks they’re Larry Bird.[/quote]

The argument you are trying to present, for the most part with regards to the majority of people who have truly gained in excess of 50lbs of lean body mass, is largely bullshit.

Yes, there will always be genetic freaks who have no clue how they gained all of their muscle mass…but I just haven’t met very many of these people. Most of the people I have ever met who would truly qualify as “huge” know damn well how they got that way and most of them are not “meat-headed” idiots who can’t read, regardless of the stereotype.

I have learned more from simply talking to those guys than from reading any one article. The most important lesson being that work EFFORT trumps finding “the perfect routine”. We have had people on this board admit that they have been reading articles for two years but haven’t been to a gym regularly yet.

The downside to believing that most of the big guys you see are retarded…is missing out on the knowledge through experience that each one of them has.

Your stance is to believe that a Michael Jordan is clueless with regards to teaching…and that somehow you can learn more from some guy who is a Phd in “basketball” but has never actually been on a court for any team.

90

[quote]Professor X wrote:
SWR-1240 wrote:
Sometimes the best NBA players don’t make great coaches, and most coaches of any sport probably wouldn’t make great players.

Everyone here thinks they’re Larry Bird.

The argument you are trying to present, for the most part with regards to the majority of people who have truly gained in excess of 50lbs of lean body mass, is largely bullshit.

Yes, there will always be genetic freaks who have no clue how they gained all of their muscle mass…but I just haven’t met very many of these people. Most of the people I have ever met who would truly qualify as “huge” know damn well how they got that way and most of them are not “meat-headed” idiots who can’t read, regardless of the stereotype.

I have learned more from simply talking to those guys than from reading any one article. The most important lesson being that work EFFORT trumps finding “the perfect routine”. We have had people on this board admit that they have been reading articles for two years but haven’t been to a gym regularly yet.

The downside to believing that most of the big guys you see are retarded…is missing out on the knowledge through experience that each one of them has.

Your stance is to believe that a Michael Jordan is clueless with regards to teaching…and that somehow you can learn more from some guy who is a Phd in “basketball” but has never actually been on a court for any team.[/quote]

It’s my biggest issue on these boards. So many tout theory, and scoff at actual anecdotal evidence.

It’s like the guy who posts that these two HUGE meatheads were doing their squats wrong. Then they went over and did…barbell curls. “It’s a good thing they had great genetics!”

91

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Most of the people I have ever met who would truly qualify as “huge” know damn well how they got that way and most of them are not “meat-headed” idiots who can’t read, regardless of the stereotype.

I have learned more from simply talking to those guys than from reading any one article. The most important lesson being that work EFFORT trumps finding “the perfect routine”…The downside to believing that most of the big guys you see are retarded…is missing out on the knowledge through experience that each one of them has.

Your stance is to believe that a Michael Jordan is clueless with regards to teaching…and that somehow you can learn more from some guy who is a Phd in “basketball” but has never actually been on a court for any team.[/quote]

Hmmm…I always was suspicious of the old argument “Those that can do, those that can’t teach”, Prof’…

92

Well, that last post was mostly to fish for more of an argument, but the reference to Jordan isn’t really what I was taking about, it would be more like most NBA players (all of whom would be great at basketball) not necessarily being great teachers of basketball.

I used Larry Bird as an exception because he’s the one guy I know who’s done both. Jordan would probably be another who’d fit that small percentage of great players who would be great teachers.

I’ll admit that that whole argument probably doesn’t apply as much with bodybuilding as it would basketball.

The point was just that I think people of all levels can continue to learn from those who might not yet be where they are. To think you can only learn from someone bigger would mean once you’re huge, you already know everything there is to know about building mass. Ronnie Coleman still has trainers helping him.

What if some scrawney 130lb guy trains for years with and around huge guys and learns a ton from them but doesn’t progress because he lacks drive and dicipline needed. Doesn’t he still know what he’s talking about if he gives advice?

93

Also, don’t misinterpret what I said to mean that don’t respect those who have made more progress than me.

I respect their achievements, but I’ve heard so many contradictory things from different guys who look very muscular and are strong as hell. I listen to them, but when one says the other doesn’t know what he’s talking about (happened at an old gym I went to) it’s difficult to separate the truth from the BS.

I try to listen more to those who have successfully trained many people with different body types. Different things work for different people. If that person also looks the part, then I’ll probably have more confidence getting information from him, but that shouldn’t be the first reason why I listen to them.

94

[quote]Monopoly19 wrote:
Ruggerlife wrote:
Zap Branigan wrote:
hueyOT wrote:
Roy wrote:

I honestly, despite what many believe, think that Mcquay has used gear in the past, like most people his size.

are you saying that a lot of people on T-Nation think stan is natural?

Of course he is. Hard training, Biotest supplements and nightly prayers., and the believing in yourself, brother…

And taking your vitamins…

Monopoly[/quote]

Worked for the Hulkster.

95

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
What if some scrawney 130lb guy trains for years with and around huge guys and learns a ton from them but doesn’t progress because he lacks drive and dicipline needed. Doesn’t he still know what he’s talking about if he gives advice?[/quote]

You’re saying there is someone out there who, despite associating with bigger and stronger guys , was never inspired to get big a strong? I’ve never met such a person.

Have you? If not, then please quit citing fantasty examples.

The untested “theory” spouted is bad enough; now we need to create fictional “weightlifters” to “prove” a point?

96

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
Well, that last post was mostly to fish for more of an argument, but the reference to Jordan isn’t really what I was taking about, it would be more like most NBA players (all of whom would be great at basketball) not necessarily being great teachers of basketball.

I used Larry Bird as an exception because he’s the one guy I know who’s done both. Jordan would probably be another who’d fit that small percentage of great players who would be great teachers.

I’ll admit that that whole argument probably doesn’t apply as much with bodybuilding as it would basketball.

The point was just that I think people of all levels can continue to learn from those who might not yet be where they are. To think you can only learn from someone bigger would mean once you’re huge, you already know everything there is to know about building mass. Ronnie Coleman still has trainers helping him.

What if some scrawney 130lb guy trains for years with and around huge guys and learns a ton from them but doesn’t progress because he lacks drive and dicipline needed. Doesn’t he still know what he’s talking about if he gives advice?[/quote]

No. If he lacks drive and focus and can’t stick with this, what the hell can he teach me about how to keep doing this for decades? What does he know about truly lifting heavy AND avoiding a major injury despite getting his arms over 19" and his chest well over 50"?

Again, your argument makes the ridiculous jump to some scenario involving a belief that if a guy knows something with 19" arms then we believe the guy with 20" arms knows even more. What you fail to grasp is the understanding that they are both big so there is something to learned from EACH.

I don’t think most of the people who log in here understand the type of dedication someone would have to have to lift weights for over 10 years with no long lay offs while actually gaining 60-80-100lbs in that time period.

The guy who does something like that has more experience (and knowledge gained from it) than some kid who has read more but hasn’t even training for 2 solid years straight. To believe otherwise is ridiculous…yet that doesn’t stop it from happening on this web site daily.

97

[quote]Ramo wrote:
Hope it makes you happy.[/quote]

Awesome post. BTW, the guy isn’t even 185 pounds. Rather, that’s his goal weight. From his profile: “I’m small framed and have a goal of 185#'s ripped.” It’s hard to say for certain, but he seems to weigh 155 pounds: “I know [185 lbs.] is a small weight for 6 feet, but it is deceptive on my frame; at 155# experienced lifters guessed my weight at around 175#. 185# is a best guess at the weight I’ll be when I hit what I’m looking for.”

Yes, that is someone I want advice on putting on muscle from!

Please, Roland, keep that advice coming!

98

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
Also, don’t misinterpret what I said to mean that don’t respect those who have made more progress than me.

I respect their achievements, but I’ve heard so many contradictory things from different guys who look very muscular and are strong as hell. I listen to them, but when one says the other doesn’t know what he’s talking about (happened at an old gym I went to) it’s difficult to separate the truth from the BS.

I try to listen more to those who have successfully trained many people with different body types. Different things work for different people. If that person also looks the part, then I’ll probably have more confidence getting information from him, but that shouldn’t be the first reason why I listen to them.[/quote]

For the most part, in bodybuilding, the results speak for themselves. Believing that will allow more knowledge gained than the guy who walks around laughing at bigger guys because they are doing “biceps curls laugh snicker” all because he read an article. There will always be contradictory info because there are several ways to reach a goal.

However, if most of the large guys in the gym admit that they bulked up before (regardless of what they may be doing now) and all of the smaller guys seem to be the ones claiming that gaining huge amounts of muscle is possible with no added gain in body fat at all…I know who I am going to listen to.

That has worked for me this far. Why would I pretend it hasn’t? I suppose if I had something to sell…

99

[quote]SWR-1240 wrote:
Sometimes the best NBA players don’t make great coaches, and most coaches of any sport probably wouldn’t make great players.

Everyone here thinks they’re Larry Bird.[/quote]

Here’s a nugget of wisdom I got from Dave Tate years ago…

He told me the best advice he could give me was to find the strongest guys in my area and ask to train with them, so I did. Three years after following that advice I had four state powerlifting records.

Sometimes the best coaches are people who’ve already accomplished what you’re seeking to do.

100

i think the most important point being drilled home in the latest posts on this thread is that real knowledge in the gym can ONLY come from true experience. it doesn’t matter how much you read, you’ll never know shit until you’ve actually been plugging away at the weights for years and made some serious progress.

95% of my training knowledge has come from guys i’ve been lucky enough to meet in various gyms who have shown me proper techniques for various exercises. and that’s the knowledge that takes years to build. being aware of your body’s abilities, in tune with your body and knowing exactly what you can handle, training on instinct before training according to a specific program, all of these skills and many more can only be developed through real-world experience.

in regards to the whole ‘little guys laughing at big guys’ phenomenon, i think there are circumstances where i’ve met relative newbies who were more knowledgeable than their older and bigger counterparts. they just haven’t had the time to mature physically over the same period of time as some of the older, bigger lifters. i’m not saying there aren’t plenty of little guys out there who need to show a little more respect for those who came before them, but i will say that i’ve met some very smart little guys who are new to training who will grow up to be god-like.

peace.