Previous posters have already given detailed explanations, but the cliff notes version is the population used for the ranges were healthy, European/American, non-obese (<30 BMI) men aged 19-39 years old.
There is a lot of TRT BS out there, as this video perpetuates, that the ranges are based off of old, sick, symptomatic men. It’s a brilliant marketing strategy, but it’s completely factually inaccurate.
If you want to know more:
Thank you both. I appreciate this reference.
I will troll and ask where did they find over 1000 non obese men! Hahahaha
The only issue I have with their statistics is how they determine obese. I’m considered obese, and I’m sure all bodybuilders are considered obese too. So I feel the resistance training people’s T levels are left out.
I am not arguing your point about the video saying the range is of XYZ.
Case in point, here’s literally what is said in the video with everyone shaking their heads in agreement while discussing LabCorp and the ranges:
"These lab ranges are derived from a pool of people; do I want to be normal when I’m being compared to a pool of symptomatic and presumably sick individuals who are coming and requesting a test? … “No, these are older guys; these are presumably post-andropause guys and these are guys who are clearly symptomatic for Low-T which is why they’re being ordered these lab results”
100% factually inaccurate.
I don’t believe we ever said anything about old. The population as a whole are not particularly healthy. In the eyes of the people involved, these ranges would not apply to be optimized. This is a range based on the average. Nobody on TRT is trying to be average.
@johann77 I’m arranging to have Dr Gordon back on to challenge him on a few points he made, this being one of them.
I posted the verbatim transcript above.
The speaker either literally has no idea how the ranges were created, or is intentionally misleading folks for some agenda.
Seems like basing everyone’s testosterone level from such a small sample size wouldn’t be ideal. There’s 55,000,000 males in the US alone between ages 19 - 39.
As @dbossa points out, nobody on TRT wants to be average! How many people do you know that feel like a billion bucks every day all day? Im betting you have at least come across a few. A fraction of a percentage. These guys are the OUTLIERS. Instead, the range defines inclusion criteria as simply having a BMI < 30. So if you are a skinny weak non muscular try guy who has never been laid, well done, you qualify to be part of the range determining sample. And there are way more of these guys in any population than strong successful guys.
If you want to feel like a billion bucks, its time to stop using the ranges based on the average population and rather do what you can to safely make you feel and be awesome.
It so happens that for me and many others that involves tossing out the standard range, and rather defining from self experimentation what Total T, free T and DHT makes us feel great. Awaiting the weak and sickly (and perhaps jealous…) peanut gallery to chime in…
That’s the cool thing about statistics. Mathematically it is possible to describe the ‚represenativeness‘ of a certain sample for the entire population.
Take Travis et al describing the T ref range as an example. Different cohorts from different regions of the world leading to essentially the same ranges. And there are many more articles describing the population distribution of T and coming to the same conclusion.
The caveat; total T might just not be the most relevant measure of T, but that’s a different topic.
That 60-69 y/o with a TT of 1800 is probably having a pretty good time lol… unless SHBG/albumin are both ridiculously high
Ranges of physiological levels are relevant when talking about testosterone replacement therapy. And that’s what this forum is about. Men seeking ‚optimization‘ for whatever reason should move over to the pharma section.
Regarding ‚safely‘: not everyone tolerates supraphysiological T levels. If you are not into reading the scientific literature than at least browse through this forum and acknowledge that many men actually struggle on higher T levels for different reasons.
And that’s completely set aside the unknown long term consequences of freeT levels of 40, 50 or 60 ng/dl.
In the medical field they use the term ‚hooked on steroids‘ to describe this phenomena.
I don’t think a TT in the low 1000’s is considered grounds to go to the Pharma section…
But according to literature the vast majority of healthy men (acutely) are able to tolerate vastly supraphysiologic T levels
The Pharma section is typically reserved for those using very, very high dosages (ie 600mg + weekly)
Disagree, while I don’t call a FT of 60 ‘TRT’, some of the FT concentrations you’ll see on bloodwork from guys who legitimately cycle are astounding… recently (on another forum I’m on, but don’t post on), I saw bloodwork with a TT of like 350nmol, FT of 15000+pmol/l… calling someone out for abusing anabolic steroids for the reason they have a FT of 40ng/dl is ludicrous, I wouldn’t say you’re “hooked” on steroids either because you’re aiming for a certain number, it’s an individualistic decision to make (so long as you have adequate knowledge regarding the risks/rewards)… I see no reason as to why such a vehermont stigmatisation/demonisation of PED users exists within the medical community when smoking, heavy drinking, recreational drug use is treated with a harm minimisation style approach.
With a large portion of these guys it’s mental. Many of the ones that post estrogen issues a year later are at the same or higher dose with none of those issues even without an AI.
Many guys don’t understand in the beginning your body has to get used to testosterone and that it may mean months of not feeling great initially. Then they make changes too early so they never actually get to the point that their body “normalizes” and have a never ending thread about how they don’t tolerate TRT.
Many of those guys read those negative posts and “will it into existence”.
Many guys don’t take enough T to resolve issues.
I’ve been all of those guys at one point and it took a new outlook to realize most of it was in my head and the remaining was because I was out of shape and haven’t taken care of my body. There’s very few in the pharma section on doses 400-700mg of T only that have even a quarter of the issues people report on TRT.
Have a look at your own chart. As @unreal24278 pointed out theres an “old” man with a TT well over the range. Many people in fact are well over the range. If we were to believe your statement, these guys are going to have “unknown long term consequences” as they would in all probability have free T of 40, 50 or 60. You would probably have them castrate one nut to reduce T levels to fit within your range.
Im willing to bet the opposite that these men, the statistical outliers, are the healthiest of the lot. And probably the most successful as well in the fields they are in.
Reading @johann77 @unreal24278 and @dextermorgan posts is delightful. Really constructive, thank you.
Yes agreed, but
there is a strong correlation between SHBG and total T, meaning that the men with high T levels typically have high SHBG levels. Consequently their freeT is lower than total T would suggest at the first glance. Ref ranges of calc freeT end at around 25 ng/dl. 60 ng/dl is just not physiological and it has never been.
just because 2% of men have natural T levels above the range and do fine (thats speculative) does not mean that every men on TRT tolerates these levels or above.
No but the case could be argued for 35-40 being produced naturally within a very small subsection of the populace. Furthermore, the vast majority… actually literally ALL healthy young men within literature available appear to (acutely) tolerate supraphysiologic dosages of testosterone. To say this is without long term effect wouldn’t be true, as we don’t entirely know (the grey zone appears to be between say 2000-4500ng/dl…)… But to stick guys with a FT of 40-60ng/dl with the more hardcore guys in the Pharma forum is hogwash, it’s an in-between, a middle ground if you will.
I believe many side effects people experience (supposedly, esp when related to “oestrogen”) stem from
Guys on the Pharma forum use 500-1000mg (and even more… it’s getting out of hand how much guys use nowadays) with regularity… very few complain of the myriad of sides seen here
Totally agree. And we have to put in consideration the androgens receptors sensitivity that nowadays is worsened on many people.
How else would you explain my brother having less total and free t values than mine PRE TRT having no symptoms?(or at lest not as strong as I did have)
Don’t take an AI! Don’t do it! All studies provided in the link under the video!
I was just told I will die with 80 e2 
Haha, by who? I must be dead already then. Danny too. Good riddance. Just kidding.
