Having Second Thoughts about TRT

Hi guys,
Quick intro: I’m 32 yrs old with moderate TT (TT: 450, SHBG: 40, LH:5.4). Only symptoms are sexual related. Lack of FT probably due to long standing varicocele. I wasn’t depress pre-TRT but I have an anxiety disorder which is unrelated to TT (I had anxiety when my TT was 800ng/dl in my 20s). My anxiety is genetic + mild concussion that made it worse.

I decided to self medicate with TRT, I can get everything I need but not through a doctor (impossible in Canada). My goal was simply to determine if TRT could improve my situation. It was a trial.

I did 50mg cyp 3 times a week (150mg/week). Didn’t want to complicate things with AI or HCG. I did it for 3 weeks, and I stopped… after reading this forum.

I began to have some serious doubts and anxiety after reading the stories here. I thought at first TRT was about replacing testosterone, but then I read about LH being supressed and the existence of LH receptors which could be important for mood/mental health. Then I read about HCG mimicking LH, and the estrogen problems that comes along with using HCG. I read these stories about people constantly struggling to control estrogen, carefully monitoring their morning erections and libido. Even Dr. Crisler talking about his TRT experience wasn’t very reassuring: he was experimenting with other hormones to compensante for things he was missing due to TRT (Think it was DHEA, don’t remember exactly)

I realize this forum has a selection bias, but is TRT viable on the very long term? or is it a constant struggle to find balance. Do we have guys who have been on TRT for decade(s) on a constant protocol and do not need to worry about TRT?

I’m asking this simply because I’m somewhat fragile and I need to carefully assess the mental toll of TRT.

Thank you

It’s not hard to understand why you sought TRT, while your Total T isn’t terrible, your SHBG is elevated and binding up your Free T which can’t be ideal. The way I see it as you age SHBG will increase binding more and more Free T and your testosterone will decline.

Ask yourself if low testosterone is viable long term because disease as a result of low testosterone is no joke. These forums can be a curse for people who overthink things and have anxiety because other peoples horror studies can feed your anxiety.

I’m not sure I understand what you mean by a constant protocol, but you’re looking at other people having problems and I don’t see how this relates to you, it sounds like you’re feeding off everyone else problems thinking one day you’re going to have problems as well and maybe you will, but you figure it out and move on.

Nelson Vergel over on Excelmale has been on TRT longer than anyone else and is doing very well, sure he had a small hiccup where his libido crapped out and he felt as though he lost the benefits of TRT, but found out that after decades of suppressing LH that all he needed was HCG which he had tried decades earlier which produced bad results.

As he got older and LH was 100% suppressed, things changed and he revisited HCG and it brought back all the benefits he lost. You take life one day at a time, when you encounter a bump in the road, you drive over it and continue on forward. That’s life, what doesn’t kill you makes you stronger.

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Thanks alot for the reply. I should have mentionned that anxiety is also due to not being followed by a doctor. Hence, figuring problems as they come won’t be easy. I don’t even have access to sensitive E2 testing. I’m doing everything blind.

My 3X 50mg protocol was a semi-success. I had better erections (this effect appeared really quickly, like after 1 week). But I had flushes, and mild insomnia. I suspect the insomnia was related to my anxiety more than the hormones (ex: fear of infection from injection), but it could have been E2 related. I did a blood test for TT shbg and non-sensitive E2. Currently awaiting results.

“thinking one day you’re going to have problems as well and maybe you will, but you figure it out and move on.”

I like your optimism and I wish I could have this kind of attitude in life. However, I cannot help but think: it is not because a problem exists, that a good solution also exists. I want to believe TRT is a good solution, but that belief needs to feed off the success stories. I’ll check out Nelson Vergel.

Cheers

That may be too much testosterone for you, but your symptoms are easily correctable. Elevated estrogen can cause anxiety and insomnia, with that said and I’m not trying to minimize your issues, but it could be so much worse.

Take me for example, I’ve probably had it worse than anyone, I have a problem and work through it and if I don’t succeed, I keep trying and don’t ever give up. When you get your labs I can take a lot and make some recommendations because I’m pretty good a getting guys to balance T/E2 ratios.

@phlem
You need to give it 8-12 weeks before you get any of the positive aspects of TRT. Whether you need it or not who knows. My total T almost 600 and TRT has vastly improved my libido and erections that using SSRIs in my early years effected. Libido and erections are definitely the thing that it has had the most positive effect on and also the last positive effect to come (took a while). Borderline too good. TRT isn’t a walk in the park and comes with its own set of issues. Good luck

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Ain’t that right.

But seriously. It’s not a balancing issue. Once you’re in a good protocol, it’s easy to maintain. Most guys do well only on test injections (frequency varies). In most cases no other drugs are needed unless you need to have fertility while you’re trying.

You do not have to use the “sensitive” E2 method.

The ECLIA test (aka immunoassay or IA) for E2 management is commonly used for those on TRT. It is not an incorrect test or a test for women, but simply one way to check estradiol levels. The other commonly utilized test is the LC/MS/MS method (aka liquid chromatography dual mass spectrometry, sensitive or ultrasensitive). It is the more expensive of the two. There are inherent advantages and disadvantages to each of these two methods. I have been fortunate to be able to speak with professionals who work with both methods. One is a PhD researcher for Pfizer and the other is a medical doctor at Quest. I’ll summarize their comments.

The ECLIA method is the more reliable of the two in terms of consistent results. The equipment is easier to operate thus accuracy is less reliant on the skill of the operator. If the same sample were to be tested twenty times, there would be very little, if any, difference in the results.

The ECLIA method is not as “sensitive” in that it will not pick up E2 levels below 15pg/mL. If your E2 level with this test is 1-14pg/mL, the reported result will be “<15”. Because of this, it is not recommended for menopausal women, men in whom very low levels of E2 are suspected, or children. In other words, if your levels are below 15pg/mL, and it is important to know if the level is 1 or 14pg/mL, you do not want this test. For us, this is likely moot, since if you are experiencing low E2 symptoms and your test comes back at <15, you have your answer. For a woman being treated with anti-estrogen therapy for breast cancer, it may be necessary to know if the E2 level is zero or fourteen because therapeutically, they want zero estrogen.

A disadvantage to IA testing is that it may pick up other steroid metabolites, which in men would be very low levels, but still could alter the result. Another potential disadvantage is that elevated levels of C-reactive protein (CRP) may elevate the result. CRP is elevated in serious infections, cancer, auto-immune diseases, like rheumatoid arthritis and other rheumatoid diseases, cardiovascular disease and morbid obesity. Even birth control pills could increase CRP. A normal CRP level is 0-5 to 10mg/L. In the referenced illnesses, CRP can go over 100, or even over 200mg/L. Unless battling one of these serious conditions, CRP interference is unlikely.

The LC/MS/MS method will pick up lower E2 levels and would be indicated in menopausal women and some men if very low E2 levels are suspected and it is desired to know exactly how low, children and the previously mentioned women on anti-estrogen therapy. It will not be influenced by elevated CRP levels or other steroid metabolites.

While some may believe the ECLIA test is for women, on the contrary, as it pertains to women on anti-estrogen therapy, such as breast cancer patients, the LC/MS/MS is the test for women as CRP levels are a consideration and it is necessary to know if the treatment has achieved an estrogen level of zero.

On the other side of the coin, LC/MS/MS equipment is “temperamental” (as stated by the PhD who operates both) and results are more likely to be inconsistent. Because of this, researchers will often run the same sample multiple times.

It is not clear if FDA approval is significant, but this appears on Quest’s lab reports: This test was developed, and its analytical performance characteristics have been determined by Quest Diagnostics Nichols Institute San Juan Capistrano. It has not been cleared or approved by FDA. This assay has been validated pursuant to the CLIA regulations and is used for clinical purposes. This statement is on LabCorp’s results: This test was developed and its performance characteristics determined by LabCorp. It has not been cleared by the Food and Drug Administration.

It is unlikely that any difference in the same sample run through both methods will be clinically significant. Estradiol must be evaluated, and it should be checked initially and ongoing after starting TRT. It obviously makes sense to use the same method throughout. Most important are previous history and symptoms related to low or high E2. Those are correlated with before and after lab results. Any estradiol management should not be utilized without symptoms confirmed by lab results.

Is it possible you would have been fine if you had not seen this forum? As you noted, most are here in search of solutions to their own situation, not all. but most. But, they are TRT outliers.

Yes, the majority of men on TRT do not change protocols. I know some who have been on testosterone for over twenty years, even longer. Some just stayed on low dose (200mg/week) testosterone after stopping competition and AAS/PED use.

It may help if you can find a doctor who specializes in TRT, even if you need to travel or go outside the national health system. Keep in mind the majority of guys taking testosterone are guys like you, doing it underground, who do not even know about E2, SHBG or aromatase inhibitors, and guys doing it through PCPs, endocrinologists and urologists, who get one or two injections every month and never get E2 or SHBG evaluated. I have a couple of relatives in that category.

If you believe there is, or will be, a mental toll that comes with TRT, you probably should not do it. It’s OK, if that is the way you feel, then that’s the way it is. You cannot help the way you feel. People I know experience(d) a mental toll from being low testosterone. I know if i had to stop, it would take a toll on me mentally.

I hope you can work through this, it sounds as though you would benefit from TRT. It can be life changing. Good luck.

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I think 3X50mg was too much indeed. I’ll post the test results as soon as I get them. My issues were mild, but anxiety makes everything worse. In my case, I get in a fight-or-flight state that can last for weeks. It is literally a sickness due to a concussion.

Actually, I don’t think I would have been fine even if I had not read this forum. I was thinking all the time about absess from injection (got a couple of nodules and rash when trying SubQ), and testicle atrophy/reaching a point of no return. Even within 3 weeks I got some atrophy.

Right now I’m doing HCG (750 iu 3 times a week for one week) with no Test to get rid of the atrophy (its working). I just need to calm down (still in fight or flight atm), and reassess the situation once I get the test results.

Thanks for the info on E2 testing, that is reassuring.

I started TRT two and a half weeks ago and Im also over-thinker and have a lot of issues with anxiety.

At some point I was really feeling better, but in the last three days I started to feel like shit. I guess because my natural t production has shut down and my hormones now are all over the place. My testicles also shrunk a but but I do not worry too much about that. Previous week there was a little pain from time to time, now not anymore.

Now feeling shitty and needing just to wait and so nothing the only thing that keeps me from falling apart is everything Ive read and learnt about trt. Most important:

1)TRT can literally save your life in terms of giving it the tools to live it fully. It can create a lot of difference in everything if you need it. Hundreds and hundreds of people report that. This cannot be a placebo or shit

  1. For my case I know I have to wait and give my body the time to sort things out. This is the most difficult for me. Waiting when things are crap - my stress drives me to do stupid shit

3)TRT can have side effects, but if done right in most cases in otherwise healthy persons they are manageable and negligible compared to the positives

  1. You do not need e2 sensitive and be obsessed with estrogen alone. Most people seem to not need any estrogen control on trt doses

  2. Many people will not agree here - but from what Ive learned the more often you inject the better. I inject every day because I want stability. No matter the half lives, all other frequencies can cause fluctuations. In my mind some people are not so sensitive to that, but I know I am

  3. I will give you a tip about the nodules - if I press hard with a finger for at least a minute the injection site after I pull out the needle nodule does not appear. I forgot only once and I got a fatty painful nodule that lasted for two days

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Have you looked into getting help for post concussion syndrome? Not from an ordinary neuro, but one specializing in concussions? Brain injury is nothing to mess with. You may need treatment for both, low test and post concussion syndrome.

From my understanding, there isn’t much to do about post-concussion syndrome beside rest. In my case, its been 2 years, so any symptom at that point is a chronic sequelae. I also suspect it is 50% concussion 50% pre-existing anxiety. Most people experiencing the same concussion as I did would have been fine.

I can manage my anxiety in most situations. The TRT anxiety rush really blindsided me, I didn’t expect that big of a flight/fight from it. I had been symptoms free for about 10 months at that point.

Actually, there is, but as with everything, each situation is unique. It sounds as though you’ve looked into and exhausted all options to your satisfaction. It also seems like you have a handle on it, so that’s good.

@phlem
How you feel the first 6-8 weeks of a protocol is meaningless. It won’t be how you feel at month 3 so basing anything off of the first couple months is incorrect and will lead to you never getting right. Go into TRT expecting not to feel ideal while your body adjusts to you injecting hormones.

You don’t know if 150mg was too much because you only did it for 3 weeks.

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Well, I read about @vonko1988 log and about yours. It is really a dillema to try or not, when you have anxiety issues. I think it is hit or miss, and you really don’t know how your body would react. It is a personal risk. And the period when your own test produciton is shut down must be really difficult for people with such issues.

I will be monitoring both your logs and hope that you will minimise your anxiety with this tool. I will join the vagon, but I am afraid of exact things that you are.

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Can we get this stickied or something? Many people (myself especially) have fallen for the 2-4 week ratios and magic number fallacy, and it’s led a lot of us the wrong way. Before this forum, I literally tried a dozen protocols (slight tweaks) in a year without any long-term success – and these tweaks were advised to me by specialists in the field.

Can you give a little more detail?

So you say you have been changing things too soon advised by experienced doctors in TRT?

And what is this 2-4 weeks magic number

No other choice but to man it up. Everyone says wait 6-8 weeks.
The issues is for all the things now that I need to be my best and exert all my mental and emotional power for the last three days I behave like a bitch and act like a bitch. Extremely irritable and exploding at the slightest thing. Total contrast with the first two weeks of TRT. But seems there is nothing I can do except try to minimize the damage…

I’ll get a consultation with a TRT doc and they’ll suggest adding or subtracting something, instead of just recommending to stick with something long enough. Magic numbers like 20-30 E2 range or 800-1200 TT.

I understand