Triumphant Return of Pavlov; Epi/Sdrol Cycle

Pharma
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I am so glad to be back on this forum. The past 9 months have been a whirlwind of incarcerations followed by a stint in a rehabilitation center for alcohol. (I got a DUI on my birthday- go figure). But I have been back for a month now and have been hitting the gym hard. Now it’s time to tell my genetics to fuck themself and dip back into the game. :slight_smile:

Due to some outstanding legal issues I will not be using any illegal gear this time around as I can not risk the potential consequences of another violation of probation. I will be returning to my favorite prohormone- superdrol, except this time around I will be stacking it with epistane.

I have not used epistane before, so I will most likely run it alone for a week to see how i adapt to it. The reason I chose epistane, apart from the consistently good reviews I’ve heard concerning it is that I have a small amount of delayed onset gyno.

So small that no one else notices it… but I certainally do, and my left nipple is constantly sore and has a small pin head size knot behind it. I have read reports of epistane doing a pretty good job of clearing up gyno… plus it seems to be one of the least harsh class 1 methyls… in terms of sides.

The Methyl Factor- I understand the risks involved with methylated compounds, I understand that I am putting myself at twice the risk considering the fact that I will be running two methyls together.

I have bloodwork from a month ago. I will get my hepa levels at +2 from the begining and +8 weeks from the beginning. I would be open to suggestions as far as an extensive liver support.

Stats
Age: 22
Height: 5’9"
Weight: 184 lbs
Current W.O. Progam: 5x5 5 day split + isolation hypertrophy for smaller bodyparts as needed
Caloric intake: 4000 kcal/day p/c/f 40/30/30
Body fat (est): 10% (can see 6 pack and obliques when flexed)

Previous AAS/PH usage: AnEvol (sdrol+pplex) 4 weeks
Trenaplex 4 weeks
I began a Dbol preload for a test dbol cycle… however I was incarcerated before I could use the good stuff
Measurements (This is from memory 2 weeks ago… I will get measurements this weekend.)
Cold l arm-16.25
r arm-16.5
shoulders-47
neck- 16
chest- don’t remember (my chest is one of my weak points which will be addressed in this)
waist- 30.5
calves- 14.5? (someone trained upper body only for two years)
thighs-???

Goals from cycle- Build up more chest, specifically the upper interior portion of the muscle (I will continue to emphasize inclined activities more often than flat or decline).

-Work towards catching the lower body up to upper body (specifically calves)
-Gain at 10-15 lbs while staying below 12%
-Any additional size in arms and shoulders will be welcomed, but this will not be my focus.
-Deal with small gyno issue as previously mentioned.

Substances: CEL M-drol 0/20/30/30
CEL E-stane 20/20/30/30

PCT: Novla 40/40/20/20… on the subject of pct. I’ve encountered some people experiencing “delayed onset gyno” with epistane. Do I need to run some sort of AI after my SERM???

Liver Support: I would appreciate feedback for this, this is an area where my knowledge is lacking.

Workout program- I will seek to take advantage of the awesome strength gains that come with superdrol. compund lifts will be 8x8x6x6xfail with increasing weight. I will do some lighter weight isolation with limited rest periods where I see fit (I love the superdrol pump).

My split will be as follows
Day 1 Legs/Chest weak point training
Day 2 Biceps/Triceps
Day 3 Back
Day 4 Chest
Day 5 Shoulders/Traps

Rest will be taken as needed. I tend to push myself on s-drol. a lot of people say it makes them feel sick all the time… it makes me feel like lifting,fucking, and killing all the time.

Diet- 5500 kcal/day at 40/30/30 (although I will be a lot less strict on my carb and fat intake than I am when I am off). I will add an extra few hundred carbs on rest days. Carbs will be 90% complex with the exception being pre and post workout.

15 g fish oil/day
BCAA’s
Multi-vitamin.

Any questions, comments, and or feedback would be greatly appreciated.

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Edit E-stane will be dosed 20/30/40/40

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You were in rehab for alcohol and you feel its a good idea to stack a methyl of any kind with superdrol ?

Up to you but you wouldn’t catch me doing that.

As far as liver support youve pretty much got liv 52 and milk thristle, neither of which is going to save you if your liver is already not in perfect shape (alcohol abuse).

Check your eye color constantly, if it starts to darken even a bit you’ll need an ER or urgent care clinic.

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you might want to look into SAM-E for your liver as well. I know here in the states it can be found anywhere…even at Wal Mart. Its kinda pricey but probably one of the best things you could do for your liver. Supposedly elevates mood as well.

I would say to use straight doses of the pro hormones out of the gate as well. Out of all the different protocols I’ve prescribed from my store taperin up doesn’t really seem to make a difference. Many people see the results of Epi ending at week 3 as well.

good luck

DG

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To clear up the confusion- Yes, I was in rehab for alcohol. I was on probation and got a DUI in june. I have drank 3 times this Year. New Years Valentines, My B-day. Lucky me get s DUI on his b-day. (Guess I need new friends.)

My liver enzyme levels are not elevated at all according to bloodwork I had taken prior to me leaving rehab.

Following DG’s advice I will run
E-stane- 30/30/30/30
M-drol-0/20/20/20

I know I had initially said I would bump the M-drol up to 30 in the last 2 weeks of the cycle… as I’ve cycled s-drol at 30 in the past… but from what I’ve read about it, past cycling of s-drol doesnt neccesarilly indicate what sides might take place this time (i.e. people tend to react differently to s-drol at different times… does this have to do with their lipid profiles???). I’m just going to stay at 20 throughout.

I have liv 52 and thistle on hand… what would you reccomend dosing the Sam-E DG?

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[quote]pavlovs vodka wrote:
To clear up the confusion- Yes, I was in rehab for alcohol. I was on probation and got a DUI in june. I have drank 3 times this Year. New Years Valentines, My B-day. Lucky me get s DUI on his b-day. (Guess I need new friends.)

My liver enzyme levels are not elevated at all according to bloodwork I had taken prior to me leaving rehab.

Following DG’s advice I will run
E-stane- 30/30/30/30
M-drol-0/20/20/20

I know I had initially said I would bump the M-drol up to 30 in the last 2 weeks of the cycle… as I’ve cycled s-drol at 30 in the past… but from what I’ve read about it, past cycling of s-drol doesnt neccesarilly indicate what sides might take place this time (i.e. people tend to react differently to s-drol at different times… does this have to do with their lipid profiles???). I’m just going to stay at 20 throughout.

I have liv 52 and thistle on hand… what would you reccomend dosing the Sam-E DG?

[/quote]

SamE can be used at 400-600mg ED. Some venture higher. It’s not a real crucial dose. Like is taking 500 or 800mg of Vit C a big difference know what I mean? lol

One thing with Sdrol is it has seemed to give some ‘delayed’ sides (that and the nasty ‘TREN’ pro H). I know of several people who did a proper pct and everything only to come in my store a couple months after their cycle now with problems like gyno or they can’t get it up. All who have gotten blood work had elevated prolactin. Something to look out for and keep in mind.

I haven’t ran any PH but have sold hundreds of cycles to people and get feedback on this stuff weekly from those that buy, so my research on these topics is from others experience that I just happen to be their ‘supplement guy’ lol :stuck_out_tongue:

DG

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Who knows… the delayed onset sides I’ve experienced could have been the result of S-drol… but that means the onset was incredibly delayed (a year???). I’m pretty sure the nasty PH “Tren” is what is to lame for the little lumps beneath my nips. And the gains weren’t worth it.

would utilizing a research-grade AI (other than letro please) for pct weeks 4-8 do any good. would it do any bad?

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[quote]pavlovs vodka wrote:
Who knows… the delayed onset sides I’ve experienced could have been the result of S-drol… but that means the onset was incredibly delayed (a year???). I’m pretty sure the nasty PH “Tren” is what is to lame for the little lumps beneath my nips. And the gains weren’t worth it.

would utilizing a research-grade AI (other than letro please) for pct weeks 4-8 do any good. would it do any bad?[/quote]

As far as doing bad it could make you more sensitive to estrogen after the ai is stopped.

The only good could be that it helps to increase testosterone.

Imo gyno, etc is not caused from estrogen alone with these compounds. I think that since we don’t really know what causes the sides with them we don’t really know what to take to combat them. I know many company’s are now making ATD and MethylATD a decent AI and it is sold otc. I know of some people who are using this instead of nolvadex or clomid in pct with some success.

DG

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no letro for me! you’re getting senile. hah.

I’ve just heard that letro causes total shutdown… although I do plan to use it if i can’t find adex once i get to use test-e (8 more months of probation.)

So… no AI then, should I use a substance to address potential prolactin issues?

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Hmm. I dont think you going to see many issues with these compounds.

The main concern is when you come off, the anti-e effects of the Epistane will lead to estrogen rebound, and superdrol itself is known for rather bad rebound effects as well.

I doubt you will see any issues while on, but you might consider a longer PCT than normal to make sure your estrogen normalizes.

I would say 6 weeks would be a better plan for PCT.

What do yall think about a low AI taper with the SERM in the PCT ?

Seems like overkill, but I thought Id atleast throw it out there for discussion.

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edit

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I’ve read a lot about bridging these two compounds… I just don’t know about having methyls in my system for longer than 4 weeks.

Would their be a way to bridge the two compounds to optimize HPTA recovery. Or rather, for one of the compounds sides to neutralize the others.

What I mean by this is… Would something like this
M-drol 20/20/20/0/0/
E-stane 0/0/30/30/30

The theory being that the E-stane would reduce the excess estrogen caused by the m-drol???

Obviously Estrogen rebound would still be an issue. The reason I asked about the research grade AI was because I had heard of people like DG was talking about using OTC AI’s in weeks 4-8 of PCT. I hadn’t personally heard much good about these OTC PTCs from people in the know (I mean sure its all the rage on BB.com but so is egging on some dude to kill himself)

I might just be spinning my wheels here, you guys know more than me.

Just a side note, began loading my liver helpers (liv 52, milk thistle, sam-e). I expect the P.H.'s to get here monday or tuesday. I will start then unless greater minds recommend me procuring an AI (I like to have PCT in my possession before I start a cycle, out of principle)

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[quote]pavlovs vodka wrote:
I’ve read a lot about bridging these two compounds… I just don’t know about having methyls in my system for longer than 4 weeks.

Would their be a way to bridge the two compounds to optimize HPTA recovery. Or rather, for one of the compounds sides to neutralize the others.

What I mean by this is… Would something like this
M-drol 20/20/20/0/0/
E-stane 0/0/30/30/30

The theory being that the E-stane would reduce the excess estrogen caused by the m-drol???

Obviously Estrogen rebound would still be an issue. The reason I asked about the research grade AI was because I had heard of people like DG was talking about using OTC AI’s in weeks 4-8 of PCT. I hadn’t personally heard much good about these OTC PTCs from people in the know (I mean sure its all the rage on BB.com but so is egging on some dude to kill himself)

I might just be spinning my wheels here, you guys know more than me.

Just a side note, began loading my liver helpers (liv 52, milk thistle, sam-e). I expect the P.H.'s to get here monday or tuesday. I will start then unless greater minds recommend me procuring an AI (I like to have PCT in my possession before I start a cycle, out of principle)[/quote]

I would just run the E-stane the whole time, it takes about 2 weeks to kick in anyways, so running it the last three weeks is almost a waste.

I dont really think a bridge is going to be in your best interest here.

Either run both compounds and get some real results, or just run one.

Dont try to run both half assed, its not going to workout.

Superdrol is going to shut you down in about a week or less, so recovery is all in your PCT, dont even think about it on cycle.

For real cycles you generally taper an AI down while running the SERM and HCG into the PCT if your not going to test taper.

The AI is to keep the HCG in check while it boosts test production, and the SERM is to help prevent the body from being further suppressed by the HCG.

This works out because you generally run HCG and the AI all through the cycle anyways, so really you just come off the test and get on an SERM while tapering the AI down and adjust the HCG dose.

In your case I was throwing the AI taper idea combined with an SERM out there to combat E rebound, but without the HCG I feel the AI would really just cripple your E levels and do more harm that good.

Hence the “overkill” but I was hopping someone a little more knowledgeable like Sir Bill might comment.

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I had an idea while i was trying to get to sleep last night.

I’m going to run the cycle as initially concieved
e-stane 20/30/40/40
m-drol 0/20/20/20

I was thinking. My estrogen levels will probably be lower than had I done superdrol alone for the first 1-2 weeks(?) of pct. Should i run novla
20/40/40/20/10… The 40/40 would run concurrent with my predicted estrogen rebound. The extra week would be just for good measure.

???

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You in school?

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Unfortunately not in Tallahassee, Swole. My home address has to be in Okaloosa county until next July. I’m just knocking out some prereqs here as well as getting my ACSM Certification for Personal Training so I’ll hopefully have a steady income once I get back to Tally to live there. I will, however, be taking a couple trips there in the next few months. I’m gonna need someone to work out with while I’m there. You’ll probably school me, but it’ll be good times none the less.

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Haha, well let me know when you’re coming in town. I’ve been lifting well this semester. But my eating has been less than desirable.

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Alright guys, gettin close to go-time.
I’ve been feeling pretty shitty the last three days, some viral shit is going around town and everyone at my house has got it. I haven’t been in the gym for two days… I’m probably benefiting from that rest though as my right shoulder has been pretty inflamed.

I am expecting the rest of my supplies to arrive in the mail today, although I do not plan to start until friday… I anticipate I will be feeling 100% by then. I just wanted to give you guys an idea of my diet. This is my food intake yesterday…

9am 2 6oz chicken breast
1 cup oats with 1 tsp all natty PB
11 am. Shake (My shakes consist of 16 oz fat free milk,46 g protein, 1 cup oats, 1 tsp all natty PB)
1 pm 8oz 85/15 ground beef
1 large baked potato
1 cup green beans
3pm. Shake
5pm 2 6oz chicken breast
1 large sweet potato
1 cup green beans
7pm 8 oz vennison backstrap cooked in peanut oil (super rare cheat meal)
1/2 cup mashed potatoes
1 cup green beans
9pm Shake (water instead of milk, 1/2 cup of oats instead of 1 cup)

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I felt a lot better today (thursday 11/27) so I started the cycle this afternoon. I’m not going to log my nutrition for today… but it’s safe to say i got at least 6000 calories. I def kept fat reasonable (under 150 grams)… And I abstained from desert so I’m proud of myself.

On to the good stuff.

I didn’t pick up my supplies until this afternoon the dosing today was a little off. Took 20mg m-drol and 20mg e-stane 45 minutes prior to workout. took 10 mg e-stane 3 hours post work out.

There are two scales at the gym.
The springloaded one like at the grocery store says i’m 182
The doctor’s office type says i’m 184.
We’ll say 183 to be fair.
Today was back day
Deadlift
warmup(135x10)
225x8
275x5 (this set felt like shit for some reason, i was afraid i might seriously dissapoint myself today)
275x5 (this set felt awesome… dont know what the issue with the last set was)
315x3… 2 forced reps after (This was due to grip failure)
335x3… 2 forced reps after (Again, due to grip failure.

Barbell rows (I do mine at about 90 degrees with palms facing away from me)
135x10
155x8
185x5
205x3 (grip failure at three)
Final sets isolateral machine 270x5
320x5

Wide grip lat pulldown
160x10
180x8
200x6
220x3 (fucking grip failure again)
200x6

Neutral grip narrow lat pulldown
180x10
200x8
220x4 (at this point my hands are bleeding)
200x6
200x6

DB pullover
120x10
140x8
140x8
150x8
150x8

Workout felt great considering i’ve been out for 4 days with whatever viral shit was going around. I’m finally getting up to the point again where i need straps. My grip is probably my weakest bodypart (besides my calves… man you guys are gonna get a good laugh on my leg days). Next week I will try to rep 365x3-5 on deads with straps. This should be pretty doable as this was my natty 1rm a month ago.

Tomorrow is traps and shoulders. From now on my dosing protocal will be
9:00AM 10mg estane
10mg m-drol
4:00PM (1 hour prior to workout) 10 mg estane
10 mg m-drol
10:00PM
10mg e-stane