Traps: Too Much or Too Little?

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Stronghold wrote:

Exactly. If shrugs arent working for this guy (and Im assuming they arent because he says he trains his traps a lot and doesnt have big enough traps) then maybe rack pulls are the way to go for him.

The first place you look if someone claims no progress is diet, not specifically exercise selection. Who are shrugs not useful for? People who can’t shrug? You aren’t making sense.[/quote]

I made the assumption that his diet was fine because he said that the rest of him is growing just fine. Shrugs never really did much for me, but when I started doing rack pulls on a regular basis, my traps got bigger along with the rest of my upper back.

22

[quote]beebuddy wrote:
Professor X wrote:

I do shrugs only. That is because they work.

That is because you are lucky. The only thing shrugs ever did for me was injure my shoulders. Unlucky me I suppose. I do agree with the other poster that DLs work well as I have disproportionately large traps with a mere 500lb max DL at a BW of about 215-220.

Also, rack pulls somehow mess with my shoulders. I can’t explain it but when I put the bar on the rack it hurts my shoulders in a way that putting the weight down after a conventional DL simply doesn’t. [/quote]

With so many problems, I sure wouldn’t blame the exercises at this point.

23

[quote]Stronghold wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Stronghold wrote:

Exactly. If shrugs arent working for this guy (and Im assuming they arent because he says he trains his traps a lot and doesnt have big enough traps) then maybe rack pulls are the way to go for him.

The first place you look if someone claims no progress is diet, not specifically exercise selection. Who are shrugs not useful for? People who can’t shrug? You aren’t making sense.

I made the assumption that his diet was fine because he said that the rest of him is growing just fine. Shrugs never really did much for me, but when I started doing rack pulls on a regular basis, my traps got bigger along with the rest of my upper back.[/quote]

Keep your options open. I don’t deadlift currently. However, I won’t be writing that I won’t ever do them or that someone else should avoid them. I simply see progress from what I am doing so there is no reason to change it up and my reasoning is the avoidance of any back injuries from heavier weight.

The same goes for you. If you see progress with rack pulls, then keep doing them. I just don’t understand telling someone else not to do an exercise unless the reason is a safety issue.

I have serious doubts that shrugs don’t work for you as far as building muscle.

24

[quote]Professor X wrote:
ds77 wrote:

I do upright rows but have never heard there was a danger on this. Just wanting to know reason why some people think they are dangerous or could lead to injury as upright rows is something i do…

Some people (me included) believe the sheer forces on the rotator cuff created by the movement can lead to shoulder damage, especially once you start moving more and more weight. I personally stay away from them or BTN presses taken all of the way down to the shoulders. I know way too many lifters who have had their progress stunted because of serious shoulder damage. [/quote]

thanks for the information. Completely agree with you on btn presses as i have tried these and they just dont feel right as far as alignment (in other words; it feels like you could get injury doing these). However, the upright row does not feel this way and always preferred the upright row as i think this movement has more application when doing sports or physical activity; but may need to rethink; however, have always done higher rep range with upright row (8 to 12); maybe this is ok???.

My problem with the shrug is it really does not mimic any type of movement you would do naturally where the upright row at least somewhat does;but maybe shrug does have some benefit such as maintaining balance of strengh or gaining size (if your looking for size gain; but i am not)… Guess just asking general question relating to benefits of shrugs when one is not concerned necessarily with gaining size; but is concerned with strength balance so as to prevent injuries…

25

[quote]ds77 wrote:
<<<

My problem with the shrug is it really does not mimic any type of movement you would do naturally

[/quote]

ANY sound movement is done “naturally” by definition. An unnatural movement is one that is practically guaranteed to produce an injury with any significant amount of weight. All effective and safe exercises are nothing more than natural motion with additional resistance.

26

[quote]Professor X wrote:

With so many problems, I sure wouldn’t blame the exercises at this point.[/quote]

It’s a known fact that shrugs are for pussies. Seriously though, we are all either small and weak or we are working around injuries. The contrary is exceedingly rare if not 100% unheard of. Or you could be small and weak AND working around injuries.

I am sure you were just joking though. You can’t actually believe that all exercises are for all people. That would make you really dumb.

27

[quote]Tiribulus wrote:
ds77 wrote:
<<<

My problem with the shrug is it really does not mimic any type of movement you would do naturally

ANY sound movement is done “naturally” by definition. An unnatural movement is one that is practically guaranteed to produce an injury with any significant amount of weight. All effective and safe exercises are nothing more than natural motion with additional resistance.[/quote]

Further, are there really people who think a shrug is an unnatural movement?

28

[quote]beebuddy wrote:
Professor X wrote:

With so many problems, I sure wouldn’t blame the exercises at this point.

It’s a known fact that shrugs are for pussies. Seriously though, we are all either small and weak or we are working around injuries. The contrary is exceedingly rare if not 100% unheard of. Or you could be small and weak AND working around injuries.

I am sure you were just joking though. You can’t actually believe that all exercises are for all people. That would make you really dumb.[/quote]

Being unable to see the point I was making might make you the same. If someone claims simple movements produce that much pain, and several exercises instigate the problem, then the problem is the body of the lifter and not the exercises. That was the point being made.

Also, if you are constantly training around injuries, maybe you are training wrong.

I might sprain or strain something every once in a while, but if I was hurting myself as much as some of you seem to (some who haven’t even been lifting for long) I would assume I wasn’t doing it right, not that all of the exercises were wrong.

29

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
ds77 wrote:
<<<

My problem with the shrug is it really does not mimic any type of movement you would do naturally

ANY sound movement is done “naturally” by definition. An unnatural movement is one that is practically guaranteed to produce an injury with any significant amount of weight. All effective and safe exercises are nothing more than natural motion with additional resistance.

Further, are there really people who think a shrug is an unnatural movement? [/quote]

Barring a preexisting problem the only way I can think of for somebody to hurt their shoulders doing shrugs would be by strapping on way waaay too much weight. I say strapping on because anything somebody’s grip could handle probably isn’t too much.

30

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Tiribulus wrote:
ds77 wrote:
<<<

My problem with the shrug is it really does not mimic any type of movement you would do naturally

ANY sound movement is done “naturally” by definition. An unnatural movement is one that is practically guaranteed to produce an injury with any significant amount of weight. All effective and safe exercises are nothing more than natural motion with additional resistance.

Further, are there really people who think a shrug is an unnatural movement? [/quote]

Beats me.

shrugs

31

[quote]Professor X wrote:

Being unable to see the point I was making might make you the same. If someone claims simple movements produce that much pain, and several exercises instigate the problem, then the problem is the body of the lifter and not the exercises. That was the point being made.

Also, if you are constantly training around injuries, maybe you are training wrong.

I might sprain or strain something every once in a while, but if I was hurting myself as much as some of you seem to (some who haven’t even been lifting for long) I would assume I wasn’t doing it right, not that all of the exercises were wrong.[/quote]

The irony here is killing me…

It’s not a matter of doing exercises wrong, it’s about picking the wrong exercises for ones physiology and/or past injuries. If you are as big as you say you are, I am very surprised to hear that you don’t find yourself working around old injuries. I am a little envious actually.

Edit: I suppose it is possible to do exercises wrong, I didn’t mean to exclude that possibility. Though it wasn’t my point, as I have rarely enjoyed tweaking technique to save me from an inferior exercise. That’s right, I said inferior.

32

[quote]beebuddy wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Being unable to see the point I was making might make you the same. If someone claims simple movements produce that much pain, and several exercises instigate the problem, then the problem is the body of the lifter and not the exercises. That was the point being made.

Also, if you are constantly training around injuries, maybe you are training wrong.

I might sprain or strain something every once in a while, but if I was hurting myself as much as some of you seem to (some who haven’t even been lifting for long) I would assume I wasn’t doing it right, not that all of the exercises were wrong.

The irony here is killing me…

It’s not a matter of doing exercises wrong, it’s about picking the wrong exercises for ones physiology and/or past injuries. If you are as big as you say you are, I am very surprised to hear that you don’t find yourself working around old injuries. I am a little envious actually.

Edit: I suppose it is possible to do exercises wrong, I didn’t mean to exclude that possibility. Though it wasn’t my point, as I have rarely enjoyed tweaking technique to save me from an inferior exercise. That’s right, I said inferior. [/quote]

My pics are in my profile and have been for years. I have a very solid understanding of physiology so, no, I do not get injured very often if much at all aside from minor aches and pains. While I may knock on wood concerning that issue, if you are injuring yourself that often YOU MIGHT JUST WANT TO CHECK YOUR OWN FORM. There is no way you can do this for a life time if injuries are that damn common for you that you think anyone not getting injured has a problem.

How is this “ironic”? How much progress have you made?

33

[quote]Professor X wrote:
beebuddy wrote:
Professor X wrote:

Being unable to see the point I was making might make you the same. If someone claims simple movements produce that much pain, and several exercises instigate the problem, then the problem is the body of the lifter and not the exercises. That was the point being made.

Also, if you are constantly training around injuries, maybe you are training wrong.

I might sprain or strain something every once in a while, but if I was hurting myself as much as some of you seem to (some who haven’t even been lifting for long) I would assume I wasn’t doing it right, not that all of the exercises were wrong.

The irony here is killing me…

It’s not a matter of doing exercises wrong, it’s about picking the wrong exercises for ones physiology and/or past injuries. If you are as big as you say you are, I am very surprised to hear that you don’t find yourself working around old injuries. I am a little envious actually.

Edit: I suppose it is possible to do exercises wrong, I didn’t mean to exclude that possibility. Though it wasn’t my point, as I have rarely enjoyed tweaking technique to save me from an inferior exercise. That’s right, I said inferior.

My pics are in my profile and have been for years. I have a very solid understanding of physiology so, no, I do not get injured very often if much at all aside from minor aches and pains. While I may knock on wood concerning that issue, if you are injuring yourself that often YOU MIGHT JUST WANT TO CHECK YOUR OWN FORM. There is no way you can do this for a life time if injuries are that damn common for you that you think anyone not getting injured has a problem.

How is this “ironic”? How much progress have you made?[/quote]

The ironic comment was just me being facetious in response to your comment on my possible intelligence. I’ve been training for eight solid years and been as heavy as 265 and as light as 159lbs. My injuries were mostly not related to training, but I feel that my right shoulder’s bursitis (rock climbing injury) is re-inflamed or aggravated by exercises like shrugs and upright rows. Sometimes this is even the case with bent over rows and sometimes not, I’ve also had to adjust my bench technique very recently and more than once. So I do give some credence to your argument.

And for the record I am not constantly injured, but it is constantly a concern and it is not always an issue of form. After going under the knife and rehabbing the knee for over a year (again, performance and not training related) I am constantly checking what exercises are worth performing based on my body’s response. Injury is like a constantly looming spectre and IMO some exercises just aren’t worth stirring that up.

34

[quote]beebuddy wrote:

And for the record I am not constantly injured, but it is constantly a concern and it is not always an issue of form.
[/quote]

It is a constant concern for me as well which is why I choose the exercises I do and I listen to my own body. I back off if I feel a twinge and I have been close enough more than enough times to know when pushing harder will lead to a problem.

This is why I avoid some exercises that could potentially lead to problems down the road, because my goal from the start was longevity, not simply doing exercises because someone else told me to.

Because of that, my injuries have been minimal overall.

If you are training around an old injury, fine. However, like I wrote to begin with, if several different movements are CAUSING a problem for you, the problem is more than likely the lifter and not those exercises.

35

It looks like we agree then, mostly. IMO if an exercise CAUSES a re-injury then it is one of two things, a shitty exercise or shitty form. That’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

Edit: Yes, listening to your body is smart and doing an exercise because someone told you to is dumb. Being skeptical of an exercise someone told you not to do is not so dumb though.

36

[quote]tGunslinger wrote:

Further, are there really people who think a shrug is an unnatural movement?

Beats me.

shrugs[/quote]

hah, exactly what I wanted to say.

37

[quote]Professor X wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
Professor X wrote:
Stronghold wrote:
I bet you are doing a lot of shrugs.

Do you honestly think that there is anything that a 315 lb shrug is going to do that a 500 lb rack pull isnt going to do better? Make your rack pulls strong and your back wont be wanting anymore thickness.

I do shrugs only. That is because they work.

Why not do both? I’ve never seen a guy pulling 500+ lbs (for reps) that didn’t have good trap development. I’ve also seen plenty of guys with big traps who did shrugs as their main trap movement.

OP, there’s no reason to stop doing shrugs (unless maybe the program that you’re doing doesn’t allow for them), but adding in some heavy rack pulls/deads certainly isn’t going to hurt your trap development.

I never wrote that he should exclude anything. I just get tired of people on this forum acting like certain exercises should be avoided completely. Unless they are potentially dangerous, like upright rows (which is debatable) or behind the neck presses taken all of the way down to your shoulders…or mostly useless compared to other movements (like flyes) most exercises do have a place.

The only question is whether it will work the best FOR YOU.[/quote]

Sorry, X, I wasn’t trying to imply that you meant to not do both. I was just making that statement to try to avoid a “isolation vs. compound” argument. I know you wouldn’t advocate not doing compounds. So, I apologize for not making that clear in my response.

I agree, use what works. To hell with what source it came from. Results (and safety of course) should be all that matters.