Transitioning to Vegetarianism

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62

[quote]BrickHead wrote:
Tofurkey instead. I bought it last night. [/quote]
:wink: You know I’m just busting your balls, man.

If this is what you want to give a shot, go for it. But for your own future reference, I’d take some simple before pics and preferably get bloodwork (basic health markers and hormones) ASAP, so you end up getting a more complete perspective on how things go/went.

I’ve said before that I experimented with a vegetarian/vegan diet for two months a long time back, for curiosity’s sake. I ended up dropping 12 pounds of scale weight with no strength loss in the gym (in hindsight, I was simply undereating) and I was told my face leaned out.

But I also vividly remember one night, might’ve been during the vegan phase, preparing a roast chicken dinner one night (for the family, not me) and genuinely feeling bummed out that this animal died to become food. Not long after switching back to an omnivorous diet, I started using the whole animal (stock from the carcass and cooking the giblets instead of tossing them), which I’m sorry to say I wasn’t doing previously.

Also, remember that a plant-based diet basically means you’re on moderate to high carbs everyday, so that’s a factor in terms of dropping fat. Best of luck with it anyhow. Very interested to see where this takes you.

64

Push: Thanks for that great post and the compliment. I just read it about a minute ago and plan on responding when I get a chance.

65

[quote]Chris Colucci wrote:
genuinely feeling bummed out that this animal died to become food.[/quote]

If there is no waste, there is nothing to be bummed about.

Nature is cruel

66

Brick,
Have you considered buying a portion of a local milk cow, or goat(s)? I had a friend who had the same concerns about the commercial livestock industry as you, however she found this as an acceptable alternative. Many farmers sell a portion of a cow, meaning, you buy-in with others, and as the cow produces milk, you get to go pick up a portion of the milk every week. You get to see the cow, how it is living, and make sure it is being taken care of properly. When it dies, you get the percentage of meat equivalent to the percentage of the cow you bought. The same can be done with chickens, goats, you just have to find a farmer in your area who does this.

Also, this thought came from a biology teacher of mine… Most people don’t consider this, but when you eat a seed or fruit, you are in fact consuming the next generation, the “young”, of that plant. In other words, plants are alive, too. Do you think they would want you packing them like sardines in a field, ripping their limbs off while they’re still alive, chopping off their reproductive organs? They can be mistreated, malnourished, and live in squalor just as animals and insects can. What makes malnourished/mistreated animals in farms any different from malnourished/mistreated plants in farms, ideologically speaking?

67

[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Brick,
Have you considered buying a portion of a local milk cow, or goat(s)? I had a friend who had the same concerns about the commercial livestock industry as you, however she found this as an acceptable alternative. Many farmers sell a portion of a cow, meaning, you buy-in with others, and as the cow produces milk, you get to go pick up a portion of the milk every week. You get to see the cow, how it is living, and make sure it is being taken care of properly. When it dies, you get the percentage of meat equivalent to the percentage of the cow you bought. The same can be done with chickens, goats, you just have to find a farmer in your area who does this.

Also, this thought came from a biology teacher of mine… Most people don’t consider this, but when you eat a seed or fruit, you are in fact consuming the next generation, the “young”, of that plant. In other words, plants are alive, too. Do you think they would want you packing them like sardines in a field, ripping their limbs off while they’re still alive, chopping off their reproductive organs? They can be mistreated, malnourished, and live in squalor just as animals and insects can. What makes malnourished/mistreated animals in farms any different from malnourished/mistreated plants in farms, ideologically speaking?[/quote]

When it dies of natural causes/old age? No, thank you.

68

[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Also, this thought came from a biology teacher of mine… Most people don’t consider this, but when you eat a seed or fruit, you are in fact consuming the next generation, the “young”, of that plant. In other words, plants are alive, too. Do you think they would want you packing them like sardines in a field, ripping their limbs off while they’re still alive, chopping off their reproductive organs? They can be mistreated, malnourished, and live in squalor just as animals and insects can. What makes malnourished/mistreated animals in farms any different from malnourished/mistreated plants in farms, ideologically speaking?[/quote]

As far as we know at the moment, plants feel neither pain nor fear.

(God, I’m getting sick of myself spouting off those one-line comments)

I think we’ve had plenty of interesting arguments so far. This is a good thread.

70

Have fun Brick. At the very least “experiment” this will

-help with your realationship with your wife.
-increase your real world knowledge, and make you a better dietician.

It could also be an interesting way to learn more about some exotic culture. You could be like that douche on TV who learns by eating stuff.

Also, look for ways not to waste all those veggie scraps. You could start a worm bin. The worms can eat your junk mail and food scraps, and produce top notch fertilizer.

71

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Aggv wrote:
It’s unsustainable for humans to continue consuming meat/fish at our current rate. The methane from cows is killing the atmosphere (not suvs) and the oceans are being over fished and will probably be dead soon.

I have ZERO intention of becoming vegetarian/vegan but those facts are not lost. [/quote]

I don’t buy into this Chicken Little stuff. More folks on this planet are alive today than ever before and less folks per capita are plagued with hunger than ever before (that is not dismissive of the hunger that does exist).

Also, I believe our atmosphere is not dying.[/quote]

Not to go off on a tangent, but the reasoning for going vegetarian or vegan is often goes in a political direction. Population control, or environmentalism.

So far, technological advances in farming have more than kept up. When we see people starving, it’s nearly always because of situations like political dictatorships and wars. Even when Sub-Saharan Africa experienced horrible drought conditions, we had thousands of acres of fertile farmland in the US and other parts of the world sitting unused. That’s about politics, and priorities, not an inability to grow enough food. Of course, much of the food relief never reaches the poor people because of political corruption. So, the politics of food is fairly complicated. Every year we pay farmers to destroy crops, or to not plant crops.

I’m just not persuaded by the younger generation “doing a solid” for the planet by choosing not to have children. And I’m also not persuaded that my not eating meat will somehow put food in the mouths of a poor kid in Africa.

To clarify, I know Brick isn’t saying that here, but I hear that kind of rhetoric a lot.

73

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Here’s some clarification on my earlier comment about this whole deal being silly. When the armchair psychologist in me sees folks like Brick testing the waters like this my first assumption is something is lacking in one’s life, an emptiness if you will, that causes one to want to do something to make a difference in this useless life of ours.

Life is too soft. We have too much free time. Our “struggles” are pretty much limited to hoisting more weight in the gym and tailoring our diet to improve our body composition.

So there comes a point where we have to agree with King Solomon that “all is vanity.” Still, we want to push back against that thesis so we embrace causes like this one which superficially cause us to trust that we have a chance to individually do our part to help heal this sick world.[/quote]
This post is really profound and is just the tip of the iceberg of what I see as the root cause of so many problems today.

74

[quote]Nards wrote:
There’s something telling about how people respond to someone who has chosen to become vegetarian or vegan.
[/quote]

If religion has taught us nothing else, it’s that people don’t like being told what is moral behaviour.

Is the OP telling folks how to live? Nope, but as a species we tend to look at moral and ethics as a global construct rather than an individual code.

With that in mind, it’s easy to see why it gets people’s backs up. The implications being if the OP sees veganism as a moral issue, then he must see those who eat meat as immoral. I mean, why is it immoral for him but not others? If you can give me a non- food related example which is valid, I’d love to hear it.

For me, there’s stuff I do that folks are not going to like. I’ve moved past having to justify it to them, I’m okay with them disagreeing with me about what is ethical. Usually, there’s a fair emotional investment involved and it just turns into a poo argument rather than a discussion.

75

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Also, this thought came from a biology teacher of mine… Most people don’t consider this, but when you eat a seed or fruit, you are in fact consuming the next generation, the “young”, of that plant. In other words, plants are alive, too. Do you think they would want you packing them like sardines in a field, ripping their limbs off while they’re still alive, chopping off their reproductive organs? They can be mistreated, malnourished, and live in squalor just as animals and insects can. What makes malnourished/mistreated animals in farms any different from malnourished/mistreated plants in farms, ideologically speaking?[/quote]

As far as we know at the moment, plants feel neither pain nor fear.

(God, I’m getting sick of myself spouting off those one-line comments)

I think we’ve had plenty of interesting arguments so far. This is a good thread.
[/quote]

I was surprised when I found out, too, but plants do, actually have a pain response, and they can communicate to others of their species around them. Just because they don’t have brains, doesn’t mean they don’t have survival instincts just like animals.

My implied point was, food is food, we don’t ask the corn plant if we can take it’s reproductive organs. We grow it, pick it, and eat it.

Edit: Comparatively, we have bred livestock for a certain purpose, just like domesticated corn. We breed animals, raise them, butcher and eat them. The fact that livestock has a face does not change these facts that we do not treat them and domesticated corn any differently. I suppose the question isn’t “Is something suffering, dying so that I can eat?” Because truly plants and animals, both, have to suffer or die so that we can eat and live, the real question is “what level of sentience am I okay with eating?”

76

[quote]xXSeraphimXx wrote:

[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Brick,
Have you considered buying a portion of a local milk cow, or goat(s)? I had a friend who had the same concerns about the commercial livestock industry as you, however she found this as an acceptable alternative. Many farmers sell a portion of a cow, meaning, you buy-in with others, and as the cow produces milk, you get to go pick up a portion of the milk every week. You get to see the cow, how it is living, and make sure it is being taken care of properly. When it dies, you get the percentage of meat equivalent to the percentage of the cow you bought. The same can be done with chickens, goats, you just have to find a farmer in your area who does this.

Also, this thought came from a biology teacher of mine… Most people don’t consider this, but when you eat a seed or fruit, you are in fact consuming the next generation, the “young”, of that plant. In other words, plants are alive, too. Do you think they would want you packing them like sardines in a field, ripping their limbs off while they’re still alive, chopping off their reproductive organs? They can be mistreated, malnourished, and live in squalor just as animals and insects can. What makes malnourished/mistreated animals in farms any different from malnourished/mistreated plants in farms, ideologically speaking?[/quote]

When it dies of natural causes/old age? No, thank you.
[/quote]
whispers they butcher the animals when they are no longer producing, actually. :wink:

77

[quote]pushharder wrote:

[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:

Also, this thought came from a biology teacher of mine… Most people don’t consider this, but when you eat a seed or fruit, you are in fact consuming the next generation, the “young”, of that plant. In other words, plants are alive, too. Do you think they would want you packing them like sardines in a field, ripping their limbs off while they’re still alive, chopping off their reproductive organs? They can be mistreated, malnourished, and live in squalor just as animals and insects can. What makes malnourished/mistreated animals in farms any different from malnourished/mistreated plants in farms, ideologically speaking?[/quote]
[/quote]
My sweet Mr. Push, the fact that you can’t even think of anything to respond with, more than media, is disappointing…

78

[quote]Watchdog wrote:

[quote]kpsnap wrote:

[quote]pushharder wrote:
Here’s some clarification on my earlier comment about this whole deal being silly. When the armchair psychologist in me sees folks like Brick testing the waters like this my first assumption is something is lacking in one’s life, an emptiness if you will, that causes one to want to do something to make a difference in this useless life of ours.

Life is too soft. We have too much free time. Our “struggles” are pretty much limited to hoisting more weight in the gym and tailoring our diet to improve our body composition.

So there comes a point where we have to agree with King Solomon that “all is vanity.” Still, we want to push back against that thesis so we embrace causes like this one which superficially cause us to trust that we have a chance to individually do our part to help heal this sick world.[/quote]
This post is really profound and is just the tip of the iceberg of what I see as the root cause of so many problems today.[/quote]

I agree with him, but wouldn’t you rather have the problems we are faced with today rather than the problems faced by previous generations? If we’ve mastered fulfilling our basic needs, should we not continue to improve other areas of our lives even if it’s not necessary for survival?
[/quote]
I think the fact that life is so easy, so convenient is one of the reasons why so many people are depressed, drug addicted, and constantly searching for meaning via the cause du jour. We are so far removed from satisfaction being derived from mere survival. And I’m not convinced that increased convenience and the practically immediate gratification that most people experience without the associated hard work are good things.

79

Not sure where the thread has gone since the first post, but Brick you could buy a side of beef from a local grass feed farm that does not torture the animals. That is what we do and we also get our eggs from local small operation farms with like 12 chickens. My sister is full blown hippie vegan for basically the reasons you stated and it’s a complelling argument.

80

[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:

[quote]nighthawkz wrote:

[quote]Cherrybomb wrote:
Also, this thought came from a biology teacher of mine… Most people don’t consider this, but when you eat a seed or fruit, you are in fact consuming the next generation, the “young”, of that plant. In other words, plants are alive, too. Do you think they would want you packing them like sardines in a field, ripping their limbs off while they’re still alive, chopping off their reproductive organs? They can be mistreated, malnourished, and live in squalor just as animals and insects can. What makes malnourished/mistreated animals in farms any different from malnourished/mistreated plants in farms, ideologically speaking?[/quote]

As far as we know at the moment, plants feel neither pain nor fear.

(God, I’m getting sick of myself spouting off those one-line comments)

I think we’ve had plenty of interesting arguments so far. This is a good thread.
[/quote]

I was surprised when I found out, too, but plants do, actually have a pain response, and they can communicate to others of their species around them. Just because they don’t have brains, doesn’t mean they don’t have survival instincts just like animals.

My implied point was, food is food, we don’t ask the corn plant if we can take it’s reproductive organs. We grow it, pick it, and eat it.

Edit: Comparatively, we have bred livestock for a certain purpose, just like domesticated corn. We breed animals, raise them, butcher and eat them. The fact that livestock has a face does not change these facts that we do not treat them and domesticated corn any differently. I suppose the question isn’t “Is something suffering, dying so that I can eat?” Because truly plants and animals, both, have to suffer or die so that we can eat and live, the real question is “what level of sentience am I okay with eating?”[/quote]

I read the article, its sources, and the sources of the sources. They don’t support your point at all. The article says that the plants whine and cry in pain, but none of the sources support that at all. The most supportive point was that plants may have something similar to a collective intelligence. Of course the implication was that that was intended to support survival of the group, not of the individual. Did you glean somethig that I didn’t from the article and the sources?