[quote]TrainerinDC wrote:
The question is what is your definition of failure? Because by my definition of failure, Professor X is training to failure. Failure is the inability to complete another rep with proper form. By this definition of failure, the majority of us are training to failure. [/quote]
To clear that up to some degree, you won’t make much progress in bodybuilding, powerlifting or anything else in life unless you are pushing the limits. The goal should be to find some kind of harmony between pushing those limits, and knowing when to back off so that you see consistent progress for a life time.
Logically, pushing the most weight you can until you drop the weight on yourself unless your spotter is quick enough to catch it is a sure way to eventually kill yourself. I train short of that level of stupidity.
The way I try to do things is to train TO failure, not PAST failure, which I think most people on here are talking about.
Of course, in trying to push yourself right up to the very limits of your strength/stamina, you’ll occassionally mis-estimate and wind up missing a lift here and there, which is what a spotters for.
To me training PAST failure means loading up the bench, getting like 1 or 2 legit reps and then pulling the old partner row trick for 5 or 6 more. Having your spotter scream, “It’s all you” is optional.
[quote]El_Animal wrote:
Let’s make this thread a little more interesting.
Take a set of identical twins. Identical eating habits. One always trains to failure, the other stops 1 rep short of failure. What would you expect the difference in physiques to be regarding muscle mass? In bodyfat level?[/quote]
that extra rep is not gonna make a huge difference in their physiques.
define failure! is it the momentary ability to move the weight or the momentary ability to move the weight at the tempo desired. Short term, cranking your intensity up is good stuff. Long term, not so much
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
define failure! is it the momentary ability to move the weight or the momentary ability to move the weight at the tempo desired. Short term, cranking your intensity up is good stuff. Long term, not so much[/quote]
Screw the tempo it is whenyou cant lift it. Or for me I say its when I Know I cranked out the last possible rep ALONE, rack it and call that a set.
I always train to failure, whether I’m doing 3-4 reps or 6-8 reps. And I very rarely do more than one set per exercise. I always have a spotter so that I can hit negative failure as well. Has been working for me for years now.
[quote]jp_dubya wrote:
define failure! is it the momentary ability to move the weight or the momentary ability to move the weight at the tempo desired. Short term, cranking your intensity up is good stuff. Long term, not so much[/quote]
i was gonna ask the same question but i fucking hate this topic. for most people , some training 'til failure <i.e. past the amount of repetitions that you can lift unassisted> is a good idea.
[quote]E-man wrote:
Personally I train to failure on every set except warm-ups and have been doing so since my first workout. My routine is periodized so I’ll have 2-3 weeks at 12 reps, 2-3 weeks at 8 reps, and 2-3 weeks at 5 reps so I never adapt to one particular rep range. I take it even further by only using advanced techniques like drops,giant sets,and forced reps on the high rep weeks and focus on strength on the lower rep workouts. It’s much more detailed than this and I + or - bodypart volume depending on which phase I’m in but
thats the foundation and it is
excellent. Train to failure.[/quote]
Gee, you must have one pretty fried up Central Nervous System.
This is helpful info. to me too. I’m new to lifting and I thought you needed to train to failure. What I was doing was about 4 or 5 exercises per workout (either lower or upper body) and on the fourth and final set I was lifting the heaviest weight and going to (but not past) failure. I stop right away if I can’t do the next rep. Maybe I should be stopping one rep before failure. I’m only 5’5" 120 (trying to gain weight). I thought I had to lift as heavy weights as possible to failure.
[quote]Bonn1997 wrote:
This is helpful info. to me too. I’m new to lifting and I thought you needed to train to failure. What I was doing was about 4 or 5 exercises per workout (either lower or upper body) and on the fourth and final set I was lifting the heaviest weight and going to (but not past) failure. I stop right away if I can’t do the next rep. Maybe I should be stopping one rep before failure. I’m only 5’5" 120 (trying to gain weight). I thought I had to lift as heavy weights as possible to failure. [/quote]
Well, you are beginning to be enlightened my friend. Keep reading, just don’t stop lifting.
You do not NEED to train to failure your only need to train NEAR failure.
Your body will respond with growth in size and strength if you get close to the point of failure, and if you do not go all the way then you will have more energy to recover and train again sooner.
If you really look at the details in most programs you will see things like …
5 sets of 5 reps, using same weight for each set, but only failure on the last rep of the last set
A maximum effort day, where you are aiming to get to one rep with as much weight as possible, but you slowly build up to it - and you end up doing 3 sets with weights greater than 90% of your best, but only ONE set of one rep with the most you can handle ie you only completely fail on one set.
A set of 14 sets of single reps - but using a weight that you could do 3 reps with. So each set is a high weight but pretty easy, and the cumulative fatigue of doing 14 sets provides the stimulus.
Note that all 3 of those outlines above are not written in stone, just typical.
So in short don’t aim to go to failure on every set, maybe the last set only for any exercise, and even then it is not necessary.
Dropsets are like a finishing move and you perhaps should only do one set of those. I am quite fond of dropsets but only for smaller muscles like arms, shoulders, not for legs, for example.
[quote]Bonn1997 wrote:
This is helpful info. to me too. I’m new to lifting and I thought you needed to train to failure. What I was doing was about 4 or 5 exercises per workout (either lower or upper body) and on the fourth and final set I was lifting the heaviest weight and going to (but not past) failure. I stop right away if I can’t do the next rep. Maybe I should be stopping one rep before failure. I’m only 5’5" 120 (trying to gain weight). I thought I had to lift as heavy weights as possible to failure. [/quote]
You do have to lift as heavy as possible. You also have to lift intelligently. You also have to lift with enough of an understanding of how your body works so that you don’t injure yourself. You also don’t need to lift that heaviest weight until you drop it on yourself.
You have to learn where that point is and I am not sure beginners know the difference between stopping just before failure and stopping before you ever get anywhere near your limits.
5 sets of 5 reps, using same weight for each set, but only failure on the last rep of the last set
[/quote]
Why? I see people recommend this all of the time on this site and is it just because it is in an article? Yes, 5x5 is ONE way to train out of thousands. That doesn’t mean it is best for everyone else or that this should be some constant advice given to everyone.
I pyramid up in weight and always have and probably always will. Not doing that would probably lead to injury. I am sure some damage would be done if I decided to bench 450lbs as my first working set instead of working up to that weight.
You do have to lift as heavy as possible. You also have to lift intelligently. You also have to lift with enough of an understanding of how your body works so that you don’t injure yourself. You also don’t need to lift that heaviest weight until you drop it on yourself.
You have to learn where that point is and I am not sure beginners know the difference between stopping just before failure and stopping before you ever get anywhere near your limits.[/quote]
Damnit. This exercise stuff is so complicated! I think I’m just gunna do some cardio, I don’t want to get too big anyways…
[quote]Professor X wrote:
You have to learn where that point is and I am not sure beginners know the difference between stopping just before failure and stopping before you ever get anywhere near your limits.[/quote]
This is a good point. I’m helping some very rote beginners (15-17 year old girls, lifting for sports for the first time ever) out this summer and it’s not uncommon for them to fail in the middle of one set, then finish out a full set after that.
A lot of times the failure is a lack of focus on giving everything they have into the lift or a technical problem. They might miss the third lift of their second set, then I’ll run through all the coaching points for 30-60 seconds with them, then they’ll go back and hit 6 reps with the same weight.
[quote]jtrinsey wrote:
Professor X wrote:
You have to learn where that point is and I am not sure beginners know the difference between stopping just before failure and stopping before you ever get anywhere near your limits.
This is a good point. I’m helping some very rote beginners (15-17 year old girls, lifting for sports for the first time ever) out this summer and it’s not uncommon for them to fail in the middle of one set, then finish out a full set after that.
A lot of times the failure is a lack of focus on giving everything they have into the lift or a technical problem. They might miss the third lift of their second set, then I’ll run through all the coaching points for 30-60 seconds with them, then they’ll go back and hit 6 reps with the same weight.[/quote]
I can’t recall who it was, but he defined failure as the point of technical breakdown. Another used the velocity of the concentric. Certainly don’t let them complete a rep with piss poor form and continue to let them perform reps like this. There is so much you can do wrong and still get results. Aim for balance in the routine, include some explosive lifts, be it power clean, push press, power snatch, etc., and teach them good form. Wouldn’t hurt to have some unilateral training.