Training Till Depressed: Results

Well, I’m back. That was the wimpiest backpacking trip I’ve done in my life! 6 miles in, eat and sleep for 12 hours straight, 6 miles out. Pretty lame, bit was what I needed. My muscles were MUSH. I think this can count as active recovery…right? It was at least a mental recovery a bit - get out of school and into the mountains where I belong! Here are some pics of our trip:

http://picasaweb.google.com/mjabon1/Desolation2007

I’m now undecided how many more days to take off. I hate being out of the gym! But I don’t feel exactly fresh either. Maybe 3 after the trip? That would be killer, but I am moving tomorrow too so I’ll be too busy lifting stuff anyway.

[quote]StandTall wrote:
Day 8

I tried to up the weights again and ended up with about 15 reps on most lifts. I did not do the rev lunges as my knees had some sharp pains. My elbows and hips have some achy dull pain which I’m all for, I think it is the tendons and ligs getting stronger, but sharp pain is a no go for me.

I’ve been very grumpy today and will be happy the break is here for about two days after which I’ll be getting very antsy! I hate time away from the gym! Hardest thing I do.[/quote]

You know, I felt pretty good up till day 9-10ish too - I busted through the last workout on day 10 doing fine, but something broke that day. The rest of the afternoon I basically couldn’t even get out of a chair. The next day too. I drank caffeine just to walk around. But now I feel much better. I think it is part of the program. Good luck to you!

Sarah,

How did you hike go on the JMT considering you were feeling run down on the day before the hike? Did you feel pretty good for your hike? Are you going to take several days off before resuming training? Are you going to continue the CW plan?

Doug

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
StandTall wrote:
Day 4 weight was still up and bowls are normal. I actually gained strength too. It was the second heavy day. My elbows do hurt but I think it was the pull ups. I’ll not be doing those anymore but will probably substitute with face pulls. Chin ups are fine but pullups hurt my elbows.

See, that happened to me too. Everything Poliquin described happened to me, EXCEPT for the weightloss. But then again, that might just be because i focussed only on the arms/forearms.

Good idea to change it up. Being sore in the joints is probably OK, but real pain is an indication that something might go wrong if you continue.

Good luck plugging on. Once you start balling your eyes out when watching a chick flick you know you’re done :slight_smile:
[/quote]
^^^ And in one fell swoop, that qualifier right there puts me out of the running. Dang!

:wink:

Best,
DH

Hey Marc,
Always good to find one of your posts, buddy.

Now that you have some experience with HFT, I’d like to “survey” you if I may.

  1. Where do you feel you peak out with respect to recovery when going about your normal life vs optimal periods like long vacations? 5 sessions, 6 sessions…?? (I’m assuming full body and not a bodypart specialization here)

  2. What have you personally found to be your best “base” program to return to once you’ve ran a course of HFT?

  3. What is your favorite progression method while doing HFT? sets, reps, time reduction or maybe the actual adding of sessions in and of itself is enough…?

Thanks buddy. I’ve done some HFT back when I was 21 or so. I worked at a gym as an assistnat and was a student so my lifestyle afforded a high frequency to the tune of 6 days per week.

I gotta say, my strength went crazy and I picked up 25 pounds or so in the course of a year. The guy who was “training” me at first was a Jones disciple and had me doing a single set of 12-20 on a full body circuit. While I was lean (I think I may have actually had a 7 or 8 pack depending on the lighting angle @)but couldn’t pick up mass if you paid me. When I hit the HFT ala Leo Costa’s BBB, my “boss” soon began to change his Nautilus minded ways.

At 160lbs I moved to the full stack on the old Nautilus row machine and begain to throw plates on top of the stack with a rigged shaft. I began benching 225 for sets of 12 and curling 135 for sets of 6. To say that I was ecstatic is an understatement. Man, to experience that burst again brings out a lust to train that I haven’t felt in a decade!

Yourself and Waterbury are my pool of “others”, outside my onw experience and that of my buddy who did BBB with me, who can give me quality input on HFT specifics.

BTW, it was at this time that I began the AD. After feeling like death for a few days, I fell in love with it. Never looked back. That same buddy of mine and I used to joke on our Saturday training session that who ever had the better workout got the box of doughnuts that we’d put in the middle of the gym. Mutual friends and clientelle I trained would come in to see which of us got the Sapps, man! Ah, to be 21 again. :wink:

All the best,
DH

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
DIPS33 wrote:
Day 5 and now my whole body aches its starting to get hard now, but i have no pain in my joints.

Great! I started using a lot more single limb exercises since Mike Boyle strated writing for T-Nation and my joints have been 50% better!

Keep us posted and good luck,

Marc[/quote]

[quote]Seattle_Lifter wrote:
Sarah,

How did you hike go on the JMT considering you were feeling run down on the day before the hike? Did you feel pretty good for your hike? Are you going to take several days off before resuming training? Are you going to continue the CW plan?

Doug[/quote]

Hey Doug-

I was just going to PM you to ask you questions! But in response to yours - this wasn’t the JMT, which I did last summer, but coincidentally the miles we did were part of the PCT. Great trail. This was boring only since I’d hiked this section 3 times already.

I do NOT recommend trying to hike after day 10 of this program. I don’t know if it was a mental (I did let down a bit after the 10 days) but even with 1 day off inbetween where I ate all day long I was no where near recovered enough to hike. My partner who I always beat was way in front of me and I felt pretty crappy hiking up 6 miles with only like a pathetic 1000 (if even that) ft. elevation gain. You just can’t enjoy it so much when you feel like that.

I’m back now, so having completed the 10 days, took 1 off, backpacked 2, and am on day 4 of the rest. I am not sore, but I just biked over to the store and when I actually try to do anything slightly physical I just feel this fatigue. I don’t know. I’m hoping I snap out of it soon. Sometimes this happens when I’m out of the gym too long. My mind gets out of practice at pushing myself.

I am planning on continuing at least for the next 10 day cycle. I can’t cop out half-way though. :slight_smile: Plus the 10 days are great fun! You never have to take one off and it’s really an exercise in pushing yourself. But this whole 5 day off thing isn’t so appealing to me. I don’t know if I’m gaining mass either. I feel fatter, but I haven’t checked the scale.

what I wanted to ask you though, was what you think might be optimal for me in the situation of really wanting to take advantage of summer and backpack or hike pretty much every weekend, yet still put on mass? (Esp on legs) You mentioned you found it virtually impossible to make progress while hiking a lot. But this is potentially my last summer as a grad student and the only time I will be able to just head out to the mountains. I don’t want to miss that opportunity. I’m thinking this plan is not going to work. I will be so dead every weekend that I won’t be able to enjoy anything or keep up with my friends, which is also no fun. Do you know of any way to shape a plan around this desire?

I do know hiking isn’t good for leg size. I mean, I came back from the JMT last summer able to easily go 20 miles a day at +1100 ft with like 7000 ft. elevation gain, but the legs that could do that were much thinner than when I started. :frowning:

[quote]StandTall wrote:
Day 8

I did not do the rev lunges as my knees had some sharp pains.

I’ve been very grumpy today and will be happy the break is here for about two days after which I’ll be getting very antsy! I hate time away from the gym! Hardest thing I do.[/quote]

Good job on being careful when you have sharp pain. Did you substitute another exercise or just moved on?

Being away from the gym is indeed the hardest thing. I wonder how many times I negated a good plan simply because I needed to be there mentally :slight_smile:

You have to do it though, especially now that your joints are starting to ache. Perhaps two days from now you welcome some time off :slight_smile:

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Marc

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
I think this can count as active recovery…right? It was at least a mental recovery a bit - get out of school and into the mountains where I belong! Here are some pics of our trip:

http://picasaweb.google.com/mjabon1/Desolation2007

I hate being out of the gym! But I don’t feel exactly fresh either. Maybe 3 after the trip?
[/quote]

Thanks for sharing the pics with us. Beautiful out there! I would say take the rest think you need after the move but do not rest too long, I think 5-6 days is best, whether you hiked and moved or not.

Better option might be to not do a heavy day when you return but first a light session.

If you want to do another cycle perhaps you should do:
Light, heavy, medium, light, heavy, medium, light, medium, light, medium, 5 days off. Or something to that affect.

Marc

I just moved on. The knees feel good today so I plan to do the quad dominate work along with the hip dominate.

I too have negated gains by not resting when required. I’m learning as age and maturity come along. :slight_smile: I have no doubt I’ll be happy to be away for the first two or three days. :slight_smile:

[quote]IamMarqaos wrote:
StandTall wrote:
Day 8

I did not do the rev lunges as my knees had some sharp pains.

I’ve been very grumpy today and will be happy the break is here for about two days after which I’ll be getting very antsy! I hate time away from the gym! Hardest thing I do.

Good job on being careful when you have sharp pain. Did you substitute another exercise or just moved on?

Being away from the gym is indeed the hardest thing. I wonder how many times I negated a good plan simply because I needed to be there mentally :slight_smile:

You have to do it though, especially now that your joints are starting to ache. Perhaps two days from now you welcome some time off :slight_smile:

Thanks for keeping us posted.

Marc[/quote]

Sarah1 had mentioned that she felt great after the high rep days. I feel good after them too. I hate them while doing them but the next day I feel great. I love the heavy and medium days while doing them but My ass is beat after and the day after the heavy and medium training. I feel great today. I’m thinking that the high reps and the bloodflow really help me recover.

[quote]sarah1 wrote:
what I wanted to ask you though, was what you think might be optimal for me in the situation of really wanting to take advantage of summer and backpack or hike pretty much every weekend, yet still put on mass? (Esp on legs) You mentioned you found it virtually impossible to make progress while hiking a lot. But this is potentially my last summer as a grad student and the only time I will be able to just head out to the mountains. I don’t want to miss that opportunity. I’m thinking this plan is not going to work. I will be so dead every weekend that I won’t be able to enjoy anything or keep up with my friends, which is also no fun. Do you know of any way to shape a plan around this desire?

I do know hiking isn’t good for leg size. I mean, I came back from the JMT last summer able to easily go 20 miles a day at +1100 ft with like 7000 ft. elevation gain, but the legs that could do that were much thinner than when I started. :frowning:
[/quote]

I definitely think you should make the most of your summer by hiking and backpacking as much as possible. This type of activity will probably be hard to fit in during certain stages of your life.

As far as optimal for you that’s tough based on the limited knowledge. If you are going to be hiking each weekend on both days then you might try 3 lifting sessions Tue, Thur & Fri with Thurs being a heavy session. If the volume is no problems then try 4 days a week leaving mondays off.

Give it a try a see what you think. You’ll probably figure out quickly what is the right amount. Also, let your body guide you when you need to take extra rest.

When I read this post I was thinking a Tuesday, Wednesday, Thursday and even possibly two a day sessions. That allows plenty of “off” time and plenty of hiking time…It also allows for 3 to 6 sessions a week. As long as you change rep ranges for instance session 1 reps of 3, session 2 reps of 6, session 3 reps of 9, session 4 reps of 12, and then start over if wanted or needed.

Chad once said he had a client that could only devote one or two days for training and he had him train 3 times a day I think using different rep ranges starting with 24 total reps per exercise and going upto 30 reps within a few months. so session one was 8x3, session two was 4x6, session three was 2x12 or 2x9 I think. Anyway, that is what I’d try personally.

[quote]Seattle_Lifter wrote:
sarah1 wrote:
what I wanted to ask you though, was what you think might be optimal for me in the situation of really wanting to take advantage of summer and backpack or hike pretty much every weekend, yet still put on mass? (Esp on legs) You mentioned you found it virtually impossible to make progress while hiking a lot. But this is potentially my last summer as a grad student and the only time I will be able to just head out to the mountains. I don’t want to miss that opportunity. I’m thinking this plan is not going to work. I will be so dead every weekend that I won’t be able to enjoy anything or keep up with my friends, which is also no fun. Do you know of any way to shape a plan around this desire?

I do know hiking isn’t good for leg size. I mean, I came back from the JMT last summer able to easily go 20 miles a day at +1100 ft with like 7000 ft. elevation gain, but the legs that could do that were much thinner than when I started. :frowning:

I definitely think you should make the most of your summer by hiking and backpacking as much as possible. This type of activity will probably be hard to fit in during certain stages of your life.

As far as optimal for you that’s tough based on the limited knowledge. If you are going to be hiking each weekend on both days then you might try 3 lifting sessions Tue, Thur & Fri with Thurs being a heavy session. If the volume is no problems then try 4 days a week leaving mondays off.

Give it a try a see what you think. You’ll probably figure out quickly what is the right amount. Also, let your body guide you when you need to take extra rest.

[/quote]

Day 9 training went fantastic. I was able to up my weights in every single lift. I felt good, after it was over I almost lost my breakfast and could not bring myself to eat for a few hours. My knees feel good and I did the lunges today. Tomorrow is it. I’m hoping to see a huge rebound effect! This is an awesome experiment.

Disc Hoss

I can’t wait to get home to start the AD again! I’m buying a whole cow in November and plan to eat a shit load of meat all the time! :slight_smile:

Can you answer your own questions to IamMarq for my interest? I greatly admire your knowledge and your results.

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Hey Marc,
Always good to find one of your posts, buddy.

Now that you have some experience with HFT, I’d like to “survey” you if I may.

  1. Where do you feel you peak out with respect to recovery when going about your normal life vs optimal periods like long vacations? 5 sessions, 6 sessions…?? (I’m assuming full body and not a bodypart specialization here)

  2. What have you personally found to be your best “base” program to return to once you’ve ran a course of HFT?

  3. What is your favorite progression method while doing HFT? sets, reps, time reduction or maybe the actual adding of sessions in and of itself is enough…?

Thanks buddy. I’ve done some HFT back when I was 21 or so. I worked at a gym as an assistnat and was a student so my lifestyle afforded a high frequency to the tune of 6 days per week.

I gotta say, my strength went crazy and I picked up 25 pounds or so in the course of a year. The guy who was “training” me at first was a Jones disciple and had me doing a single set of 12-20 on a full body circuit. While I was lean (I think I may have actually had a 7 or 8 pack depending on the lighting angle @)but couldn’t pick up mass if you paid me. When I hit the HFT ala Leo Costa’s BBB, my “boss” soon began to change his Nautilus minded ways.

At 160lbs I moved to the full stack on the old Nautilus row machine and begain to throw plates on top of the stack with a rigged shaft. I began benching 225 for sets of 12 and curling 135 for sets of 6. To say that I was ecstatic is an understatement. Man, to experience that burst again brings out a lust to train that I haven’t felt in a decade!

Yourself and Waterbury are my pool of “others”, outside my onw experience and that of my buddy who did BBB with me, who can give me quality input on HFT specifics.

BTW, it was at this time that I began the AD. After feeling like death for a few days, I fell in love with it. Never looked back. That same buddy of mine and I used to joke on our Saturday training session that who ever had the better workout got the box of doughnuts that we’d put in the middle of the gym. Mutual friends and clientelle I trained would come in to see which of us got the Sapps, man! Ah, to be 21 again. :wink:

All the best,
DH

IamMarqaos wrote:
DIPS33 wrote:
Day 5 and now my whole body aches its starting to get hard now, but i have no pain in my joints.

Great! I started using a lot more single limb exercises since Mike Boyle strated writing for T-Nation and my joints have been 50% better!

Keep us posted and good luck,

Marc

[/quote]

Good luck!

Marc

EDIT: Disc Hoss, I responded at length (really at length…) and the only thing that showed up is Good luck!

Damn. Gotta go back to work but will answer again tonight if possible.

Sorry,

Marc

Day 8 and weights have started to decline…i’ve measured some increase in sise in chest, leg and most incredibly my arms which when i measured cold unlfexed this morning were 1 inch bigger…1 INCH! im pretty sure most of this size gain is blood pump but hopefully during the recovery period the blood will be replaced by protein and new muscle!

Dips

I just wanted to chime in and say that my training lately (per my last post on Dan John’s locker room thread) has lead me to believe that the HFT and overreaching/supercompensation is the way to go. I think I am going to finish this week up, an intensification phase, and then accumulate for two weeks, take a week off and do either/or both a (very light, fast) strongman show and a bench meet on the 14th and 15th.

I wanted to ask about stimulants during this kind of training. I like a half a Caffeine-Free Spike and 200mg’s of caffeine before and Power Drive with the postworkout shake after. I don’t do it every day though, and with 9 training sessions a week I was wondering what the best regimen would be. Are feel-good supplements useful, and how would y’all suggest they be used?

-Conor

I will give you my opinion. I don’t believe in using everythiing all the time. I have a staple of Creatine, Power Drive(after training) Grow! Whey and Fish Oil (both Flameout and Bulk), I’m adding Glucosamine. I started using Surge at about day 4 or 5 to help me get through this training and it helped tremendously.

I feel that you need to save some supplements for when they are needed for when you need an extra kick or an extra amount of recovery. I’m done with day 10 now and immediately took a double dose of Alpha Male and will take that for the next five days and again after the next 10 day cycle like Poliquin suggested. If I had some feel good pills for the last 3 or 4 days of this training I’d certainly use them as I have been very grumpy for a few days and have had a hard time not being a dick to others. Just my 2 cents nothing more.

[quote]conorh wrote:
I just wanted to chime in and say that my training lately (per my last post on Dan John’s locker room thread) has lead me to believe that the HFT and overreaching/supercompensation is the way to go. I think I am going to finish this week up, an intensification phase, and then accumulate for two weeks, take a week off and do either/or both a (very light, fast) strongman show and a bench meet on the 14th and 15th.

I wanted to ask about stimulants during this kind of training. I like a half a Caffeine-Free Spike and 200mg’s of caffeine before and Power Drive with the postworkout shake after. I don’t do it every day though, and with 9 training sessions a week I was wondering what the best regimen would be. Are feel-good supplements useful, and how would y’all suggest they be used?

-Conor[/quote]

[quote]Disc Hoss wrote:
Hey Marc,
Always good to find one of your posts, buddy.

Answer:
Thanks my friend, always learn from reading yours. I have joked before that you are my second favorite coach in this site :slight_smile:

“Getting Ultra-Massive the Disc Hoss way” is an article I would like to see :slight_smile:

Great stuff on the Anabolic Diet thread too. I am seriously considering moving forward with it but have trouble moving away from carbs (healthy ones) since I have had to train my body to eat enormous amounts of food (I started out at 6 feet and 116lbs with virtually no hunger at all)just to add a wee bit of muscle. However with the increases availability of AD foods and easy to prepare dishes I might be able to pull it off.

Disc Hoss wrote:
Now that you have some experience with HFT, I’d like to “survey” you if I may.

  1. Where do you feel you peak out with respect to recovery when going about your normal life vs optimal periods like long vacations? 5 sessions, 6 sessions…?? (I’m assuming full body and not a bodypart specialization here)

Answer:

Now, this was most difficult to answer because to my surprise it is not the amount of sessions, long vacation or not, that make me peak out. With the ever changing parameters and exercises Chad suggests I really can train 8-10 times per week and NOT get overtrained (of course keeping food intake, volume and failure training in mind!). I peak out more after a period of time and depending in life (sleep pattern, kids, wife, money troubles, etc.) that can be anywhere from 3-9 weeks before I feel I need a few days of or to de-load for a week or two.

So it is not the amount of sessions that peak me out.

By the way, vacation time is usually more stressful then regular structured life :slight_smile:

The first time I did the HF plan I did indeed have sort of a long vacation due to my wife needed to study and my son needing less care due to certain circumstances but I actually do better when my day is structured (you know, kids to school and pick up at set times, wife in class on certain days, work, lunch time…the basics) because I can then (and yes sometimes at the expense of sleep) more easily stick to set times of training as well.

Chad’s way of doing HF simply gets my body to perform better and better and it increases how much I can handle almost on a weekly basis.

At 39 I am currently amazed, as are my younder training partners, as to how much I can do. I bury guys 15 years younger and with a lot less stress in their lives.

The heavy sessions seem to facilitate the medium ones and the light sessions seem to facilitate the heavy ones! But you will have to stick to that format as well as changing the exercises all the time.

The only time I cannot do more then 4-5 sessions per week is when I do movements more then once per week! I peak out much faster and hurt myself easier when I do the same movements more then once per week. Perhaps that’s the best way to answer your question: the more I stick to the same movements the less sessions I can do and the more I change things up the more sessions I can do.

Disc Hoss wrote:
2. What have you personally found to be your best “base” program to return to once you’ve ran a course of HFT?

Answer:
As effective as it is, I do not really enjoy full body sessions (anyone claiming splits are as hard is an idiot in my opinion, I do not care how many drop sets you do or whatever ‘intensity’ technique you use) so I go back to upper/lower body splits or some olympic lifting program (I love doing those exercises) with perhaps 1-2 days of arm/shoulder training. Love EDT as well. Bought the arm book after I red how it made you gain an inch a while back!

So I usually go back to an enjoyable way of training since I need the mental break more then anything.

Now one thing I want to make sure off and that is that of course I do not have the time due to family responsibilities to train all the time in the gym. My light sessions are very often done at night, at home, when the kids are asleep and the wife is doing some studying. It might consist of 100 push ups, 100 squats, 100 calf raises, crunches, 100 dumbell (you know the pink ones belonging to the wife) rows and some side raises, curls and lying tate presses. This might take 15 minutes and leaves me fully pumped and facilitates my heavy training for the next day.

I might be in the gym only 4-6 times per week.

Disc Hoss wrote:
3. What is your favorite progression method while doing HFT? sets, reps, time reduction or maybe the actual adding of sessions in and of itself is enough…?

Answer:
Progess from split to upper/lower to full body 3 times per week.
TO many trainers simply cannot do a full body session with enough intensity right away. They are too used to blasting a muscle group not the whole body. So that progression needs to happen first.

Then do Quatro Dynamo (4x full body)
Then do 2 times per day, twice per week with one additional high rep session (5x full body)

As you can gather my progression is firt to full body and then frequency (which I think is KING).

The progres to 6 sessions (3 times twice per day is best but going once per day and doing heavy, medium, light, heavy, medium, light is great as well.

After you are working out as many times a week as you can handle my preferred progression is first adding sets, then reps, then intensity (weight) and then rest reduction.

Some might frown upon the fact that I have adding additional weight so late in the game but I really believe that frequency and volume trump adding weight if Hypertrophy is your main goal. Now, I NEVER train with less the 80% in my heavy days and never with less then 70% on medium days. So intensity is I guess, high most of the time but I do not keep adding weight just for the sake of it. I’d rather improve my performance by adding sets and reps first.

Disc Hoss wrote:
Thanks buddy. I’ve done some HFT back when I was 21 or so. I worked at a gym as an assistnat and was a student so my lifestyle afforded a high frequency to the tune of 6 days per week.

I gotta say, my strength went crazy and I picked up 25 pounds or so in the course of a year. The guy who was “training” me at first was a Jones disciple and had me doing a single set of 12-20 on a full body circuit. While I was lean (I think I may have actually had a 7 or 8 pack depending on the lighting angle @)but couldn’t pick up mass if you paid me. When I hit the HFT ala Leo Costa’s BBB, my “boss” soon began to change his Nautilus minded ways.

Answer:
Ah Leo Costa. I bought all his stuff and to my shame never did anything with it! I was intimidated by the men around me who claimed it was overtraing. The also made fun of the AD diet. Man, the gains I would have made had I had the spine I had today…sigh. Good thing Waterbury came along :slight_smile:

All the best to you as well and good luck.

Marc

[quote]StandTall wrote:
Sarah1 had mentioned that she felt great after the high rep days. I feel good after them too. I hate them while doing them but the next day I feel great. I love the heavy and medium days while doing them but My ass is beat after and the day after the heavy and medium training. I feel great today. I’m thinking that the high reps and the bloodflow really help me recover.[/quote]

Same for me. The times I do not do these workouts I cannot train as many times per week as I want to and progress is slower. Besides the help in recuperation I feel the also facilitate the heavier days. It is a good cycle. The heavy sessions facilitate the medium ones and the light sessions facilitate the heavy one.

Smart cookie that Watebury.