I’m going to suggest two working sets per workout, assuming you intend to continue at front squatting 2x per week. All other sets are just warmups to prepare you for these two all-out, 110% effort sets. First set, make sure you don’t fail your last rep…failing a rep on the first set is NOT an option, but it doesn’t mean you end the set with some “in the tank” either. The 2nd set, your goal is to come as close to failing the last rep as possible WITHOUT failing it. Occasionally you will fail that rep, but most of the time you shouldn’t be. You want to get to know your body, know its limits intimately, so you can properly push them. On the 1st set, use enough weight that you can get 4-6 reps. 2nd set, drop enough weight so you can hit 8-10 reps, feel the burn, embrace it, and knock out picture perfect reps with the lighter weight. No half-assing it.
All heavy row variations, to get used to having your rhomboids forcefully contracting, so they can stay tight throughout the exercise. Also, bigger shoulders/upper chest give you a bigger cushion for the bar to rest on. Don’t do the back exercises on the same day, that’ll wear you out, one way or the other. Chest stuff is fine on the same day…if you do shoulder stuff same day, do it AFTER the front squats.
Hey guys, (new to T-Nation - glad to be here such a kickass site) the problem that I seem to run into with training legs is recovery time. On top of training legs and trying to build good lean muscle, I enjoy intense cardio sessions at least twice a week. After absolutely killing me legs on let’s say a Monday workout, I find it almost impossible to follow up with a cardio workout (such as running/sprinting/biking) for the next couple days, and I’ve been training 5-6 days a week for the past 7-8 years so it’s not due to being a sore newbie in the gym.
If I avoid doing cardio the next couple days, and focus on other muscle groups, let’s say chest/back/arms/shoulders, that gets me to Thursday with having done no cardio during the week, with 2-3 days of training before I have my day off. I’ve found that intense cardio workouts back to back to back are just murder to my legs and I assume are doing me more harm than good if trying to build my legs.
I’ve resorted to cutting back on my leg workout so that they’re not as dead for the rest of the week.
How do you guys manage your cardio around your leg workouts?
[quote]AugustusMac wrote:
Hey guys, (new to T-Nation - glad to be here such a kickass site) the problem that I seem to run into with training legs is recovery time. On top of training legs and trying to build good lean muscle, I enjoy intense cardio sessions at least twice a week. After absolutely killing me legs on let’s say a Monday workout, I find it almost impossible to follow up with a cardio workout (such as running/sprinting/biking) for the next couple days, and I’ve been training 5-6 days a week for the past 7-8 years so it’s not due to being a sore newbie in the gym.
If I avoid doing cardio the next couple days, and focus on other muscle groups, let’s say chest/back/arms/shoulders, that gets me to Thursday with having done no cardio during the week, with 2-3 days of training before I have my day off. I’ve found that intense cardio workouts back to back to back are just murder to my legs and I assume are doing me more harm than good if trying to build my legs.
I’ve resorted to cutting back on my leg workout so that they’re not as dead for the rest of the week.
How do you guys manage your cardio around your leg workouts? [/quote]
If your bulking, Building legs >>>> doing cardio. I DONT do cardio when bulking. Id say the last thing youd want when trying to build muscle is burning necessary calories, when more often than not, people arent even eating enough to begin with, which is a possibility if you’re remaining sore for that long. Some people would agree that you’re over training legs; id however Ask how long you are in the gym for, and what exactly you do for legs. Personally, as someone who spends 3 hrs in the gym on a leg day and is constantly pointed at and criticized as an “overtrainer,” id say your problem is moreso going to be diet AND cardio.
However, to give you actual answers to real problems, we need to know numbers. Bodyweight, Bodyfat, hours spent training, diet, etc. Without statistics like these, we cant honestly give you any sort of reasonable advice.
I’m going to suggest two working sets per workout, assuming you intend to continue at front squatting 2x per week. All other sets are just warmups to prepare you for these two all-out, 110% effort sets. First set, make sure you don’t fail your last rep…failing a rep on the first set is NOT an option, but it doesn’t mean you end the set with some “in the tank” either. The 2nd set, your goal is to come as close to failing the last rep as possible WITHOUT failing it. Occasionally you will fail that rep, but most of the time you shouldn’t be. You want to get to know your body, know its limits intimately, so you can properly push them. On the 1st set, use enough weight that you can get 4-6 reps. 2nd set, drop enough weight so you can hit 8-10 reps, feel the burn, embrace it, and knock out picture perfect reps with the lighter weight. No half-assing it.
All heavy row variations, to get used to having your rhomboids forcefully contracting, so they can stay tight throughout the exercise. Also, bigger shoulders/upper chest give you a bigger cushion for the bar to rest on. Don’t do the back exercises on the same day, that’ll wear you out, one way or the other. Chest stuff is fine on the same day…if you do shoulder stuff same day, do it AFTER the front squats. [/quote]
Thanks H4M - I haven’t forgotten the advice on this post. Thank you very much.
I’ve done 5 workouts on a modified GVT program with 3 body part splits (so that’s 15 workouts on the current program). This week is a de-load so I did 2 instead of 4 sets and upped the weight where possible. Did 62kgs on the Front Squat, set of 10 and 8 with 4010 tempo. RDL was 10 (67.5kgs) and 8 reps (70kgs) with 3010 tempo. I have an arm de-load workout today, then back to normal sets for chest/back on Saturday. Tomorrow is free and I plan to do more Front Squats, RDLs, Leg Curls, Split Squats, Goblet Squats and Standing Good Mornings.
I’ll take my camera in and video tape it, because I’ll be doing this at my commercial gym and not the other special gym which I joined (Poliquin certified gym where they design my workouts and nutrition).
I have a 5km non-competitive run on Sunday. I was going to ask should I train legs on Friday so close to running on Sunday. But I seem to recall you posted a video once doing Front Squats I think (?) and you did a 3 mile run in the morning - so I thought to myself, no I can train legs and run two days later. H4M would be pissed if I didn’t try that hard
One question regarding training legs. I train them every 5-6 days and always start with heavy back squats. The problem is that almost always they give me excruciating DOMs that sometimes last for 4-5 days(!!). On the inside of the thigh, on the quads and on the butt.
My strength is increasing and I have trained them for a long time. Also my volume of them are like 30-35 total reps max (distributed on 3-5 sets). What could be the cause of it? Sure DOMs is fun for the first times, but when it happens again and again it ruins your quality of life. For example trying to tying my uses turns into torture a lot of times, or trying to take a dumb lmao.
One question regarding training legs. I train them every 5-6 days and always start with heavy back squats. The problem is that almost always they give me excruciating DOMs that sometimes last for 4-5 days(!!). On the inside of the thigh, on the quads and on the butt.
My strength is increasing and I have trained them for a long time. Also my volume of them are like 30-35 total reps max (distributed on 3-5 sets). What could be the cause of it? Sure DOMs is fun for the first times, but when it happens again and again it ruins your quality of life. For example trying to tying my uses turns into torture a lot of times, or trying to take a dumb lmao.[/quote]
Thats how my leg training has always been. Id do squats, then 2 Hamstring and 2 Quad isolation movements, 4 sets a muscle, ranging between 8-15 reps a set. I might try toning it down a bit with my new routine, and focus more just on stimulating, but honestly i loved that feeling in my legs lol.
Hehe you really must be a masochist! I love that feeling too, the sweet pain. But you know what, it’s great the first, the second, the twentieth time, but when after 2 years of training you can’t tie your shoes for 4-5 days it becomes frustrating. You know, I did squats 3 days ago and still I cannot do a bodyweight squat.
The weird thing is that I do very little volume, 3x8 on squats and 1-2 isolation exercises total (minus calves). Also the leg curls, deads, leg extensions etc don’t get me ever sore. Even if I went to the gym, warmped up, did my squats and leave the DOMs would be the same… Maybe something it’s wrong.
[quote]desolator wrote:
Hehe you really must be a masochist! I love that feeling too, the sweet pain. But you know what, it’s great the first, the second, the twentieth time, but when after 2 years of training you can’t tie your shoes for 4-5 days it becomes frustrating. You know, I did squats 3 days ago and still I cannot do a bodyweight squat.
The weird thing is that I do very little volume, 3x8 on squats and 1-2 isolation exercises total (minus calves). Also the leg curls, deads, leg extensions etc don’t get me ever sore. Even if I went to the gym, warmped up, did my squats and leave the DOMs would be the same… Maybe something it’s wrong.[/quote]
I have to hold my breath when tying my shoes regardless these days, thats the price for a big body. Well what part of your leg is wrecked after squats? The entire leg, Quads and hams, or is it just your hams? You could be putting too much stress on one and not enough on the other, causing an imbalance, which CAN tear the muscle. If you’re doing IN the hole squatting, then its probably your hams- FTR your hams are hit differently depending on the motion, Prone leg curls and Romanian Dls target two completely different sections of the hamstrings, and No regular deadlifts TO ME do not count as a hamstring movement, too much knee flexion in my eyes. SO you MAY be only stimulating part of the Hamstring through squats, a part that you normally only hit through squatting, while the rest of your ham work, if you do have enough ham work, focuses on the other half. Or you could possibly over work your quads, and squats could be essentially your only REAL ham stimulation. Really, its possible there are several possible scenarios here, the only REAL way to determine whats wrong would be to know your exercises and see you form through them.
Well it’s “good soreness”, meaning it’s only “good” pain and perfect symmetrical. It’s almost never my hams that are sore, it is the inner thigh, the quads and the glutes. I have been doing heavy deads before some months but now I stopped them for a while to relax my spine. The leg day as I said is squats (3-5 sets 30-35 reps), leg curls (4-5x8) and some light leg extensions. Then I finish with calves.
My squat form is: I go as deep as I can, controlled negative, the knees stay almost above the toes and I push a little my knees out (not something extreme). I think I am a lot glute dominant.
[quote]desolator wrote:
Well it’s “good soreness”, meaning it’s only “good” pain and perfect symmetrical. It’s almost never my hams that are sore, it is the inner thigh, the quads and the glutes. I have been doing heavy deads before some months but now I stopped them for a while to relax my spine. The leg day as I said is squats (3-5 sets 30-35 reps), leg curls (4-5x8) and some light leg extensions. Then I finish with calves.
My squat form is: I go as deep as I can, controlled negative, the knees stay almost above the toes and I push a little my knees out (not something extreme). I think I am a lot glute dominant.[/quote]
“As deep as i can” is relative. Some people have shown me there squat, and “As they deep as that can” is slight knee flexion, whereas My deep is Barbell damn near touching the Stopper on a squat rack. When you say inner thigh, what do you mean? Your vastus Medialis, your Semitendinosus, your adductors? Looking at your leg workout, i see 1 compound, which you said was Glute dominant, 1 ham movement, and 1 light quad movement. Im thinking you might want to take a step back and re evaluate your leg day. OFC thats just my opinion, please if others are reading this thread, feel free to chime in with your thoughts.
It is enough deep, definately enough below parallel, actually deep squats seem kinda more easy for me, I feel if I stop at parallel my knees are going be jacked. The muscle I mean is the adductor.
You are right, my workout is far from perfect, but since I don’t have enough good strength levels, I just focus to increase my squat A LOT before adding stuff like lunges etc. Maybe I could add RDL’s, but I am giving my spine vacations for months of heavy deadlifting.
I had asked about high rep squats back in July and got some good feedback from waylander and debraD. I’ve been working it for a couple of months now and wanted share my last two squat days and ask where I should go from here? I train at home and only do squats for legs and also sprint twice a week. I have to say I’m loving the high rep squats. The first time I was able to complete a 20 rep set I thought I had accomplished something. Now I’m killing 225 X 20 like it’s nothing.
Wed - 9\15
1 - 135 x 10
2 - 185 x 10
3 - 225 x 20
4 - 225 x 20
5 - 225 x 20
6 - 225 x 20
7 - 225 x 20
8 - 275 x 10
9 - 275 x 8
10 - 275 x 9
Wed - 9\22
1 - 135 x 10
2 - 185 x 10
3 - 225 x 20
4 - 225 x 20
5 - 225 x 20
6 - 225 x 20
7 - 225 x 20
8 - 225 x 20
9 - 225 x 20
10 - 225 x 20
[quote]Wilba wrote:
I had asked about high rep squats back in July and got some good feedback from waylander and debraD. I’ve been working it for a couple of months now and wanted share my last two squat days and ask where I should go from here? I train at home and only do squats for legs and also sprint twice a week. I have to say I’m loving the high rep squats. The first time I was able to complete a 20 rep set I thought I had accomplished something. Now I’m killing 225 X 20 like it’s nothing.
Wed - 9\15
1 - 135 x 10
2 - 185 x 10
3 - 225 x 20
4 - 225 x 20
5 - 225 x 20
6 - 225 x 20
7 - 225 x 20
8 - 275 x 10
9 - 275 x 8
10 - 275 x 9
Wed - 9\22
1 - 135 x 10
2 - 185 x 10
3 - 225 x 20
4 - 225 x 20
5 - 225 x 20
6 - 225 x 20
7 - 225 x 20
8 - 225 x 20
9 - 225 x 20
10 - 225 x 20
[quote]Wilba wrote:
I had asked about high rep squats back in July and got some good feedback from waylander and debraD. I’ve been working it for a couple of months now and wanted share my last two squat days and ask where I should go from here? I train at home and only do squats for legs and also sprint twice a week. I have to say I’m loving the high rep squats. The first time I was able to complete a 20 rep set I thought I had accomplished something. Now I’m killing 225 X 20 like it’s nothing.
Wed - 9\15
1 - 135 x 10
2 - 185 x 10
3 - 225 x 20
4 - 225 x 20
5 - 225 x 20
6 - 225 x 20
7 - 225 x 20
8 - 275 x 10
9 - 275 x 8
10 - 275 x 9
Wed - 9\22
1 - 135 x 10
2 - 185 x 10
3 - 225 x 20
4 - 225 x 20
5 - 225 x 20
6 - 225 x 20
7 - 225 x 20
8 - 225 x 20
9 - 225 x 20
10 - 225 x 20
[/quote]
Time to increase the weight. And decrease the reps.
FFS, the thought of one widowmaker makes me shit bricks, but EIGHT?!
[quote]Wilba wrote:
I had asked about high rep squats back in July and got some good feedback from waylander and debraD. I’ve been working it for a couple of months now and wanted share my last two squat days and ask where I should go from here? I train at home and only do squats for legs and also sprint twice a week. I have to say I’m loving the high rep squats. The first time I was able to complete a 20 rep set I thought I had accomplished something. Now I’m killing 225 X 20 like it’s nothing.
Wed - 9\15
1 - 135 x 10
2 - 185 x 10
3 - 225 x 20
4 - 225 x 20
5 - 225 x 20
6 - 225 x 20
7 - 225 x 20
8 - 275 x 10
9 - 275 x 8
10 - 275 x 9
Wed - 9\22
1 - 135 x 10
2 - 185 x 10
3 - 225 x 20
4 - 225 x 20
5 - 225 x 20
6 - 225 x 20
7 - 225 x 20
8 - 225 x 20
9 - 225 x 20
10 - 225 x 20
[/quote]
Time to increase the weight. And decrease the reps.
FFS, the thought of one widowmaker makes me shit bricks, but EIGHT?!
[/quote]
yeah I cant imagine doing that. I did one set of 225x20 after my squat workout yesterday and was dead afterwards. I dont know how someone could do 8 sets of that.
Wow, that’s a lot of sets of 20-rep squats. I’d say that the weight is too light.
My squat is no where near those numbers but when I do 20-rep squats with 70% my 1RM, I can’t think of doing another rep, much less another set (or 7!).
Yeah the 8 sets of 20 was a reach but felt great afterwards. I have been doing the 1st 7 sets the same way for a while now and then sets 8,9,10 are the “heavy” sets. I’m going to stick with high reps because I feel like it’s really having an impact on how I look and I just feel like a machine doing them. I have some incredible doms for days in my hams, ass and quads. I guess my question is should I try to increase the weight on the high rep sets or on the last 3 sets. I haven’t done anything less than 6 reps in a long while.
I really dont see how you can perform that much. Ive done 4 20rep sets and it felt like my legs were going to burst. Yea id definitely increase the weight, drop the reps, and cut the sets in half. I mean, even when i do high rep squats, the area i am for is 12-15. 20 is just too much, and obviously too light if you can pound em out like that.
You just have to do it week after week. The 1st time I did 225x20 i almost passed out. But after that day I made sure to always include 1 - 20 rep set in my routine. Then it soon become 3 - 20 rep sets @ 225 and then 5. Wednesday was the first time I did 8 sets of 20. I just thought I could do it based on how well I handled 275 the week prior after my normal 5 - 20 rep sets. I’m sure I could build those up to 25 rep sets or even more over time. I think i’m going to stick with the first 7 sets as is until I get the 275 up to 15 or 20 rep sets.
