[quote]Waittz wrote:
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
I like the business analogy, because it helps illustrate Waittz’s point, too, I believe.
Let’s say you make your own beer, and it’s pretty good/popular with your friends and neighbors. You go to a consultant to ask how to turn that into a small business. I 100% guarantee you that consultant will not tell you to structure your business like Coors, Bud, etc. You actually have more in common with other small businesses in the food/beverage industry (possibly even other industries) than you do with the behemoth beer manufacturers.
Why? Because you aren’t on their level. Those companies didn’t start doing business the way they are doing it now. They grew, developed, advanced and changed. They had an IPO, hired a board of directors, a CEO, etc. to meet new demands.
Similarly, you don’t start with the end in lifting weights. Yes, I agree that the vast majority of top level guys do splits, but it doesn’t follow that you should necessarily emulate that behavior to get where they are. Is there a lot to learn from those guys? Absolutely, just as a small beer start-up could still learn a lot from Bud, but that doesn’t mean that the start-up should emulate every aspect of the successful giant.
Compare powerlifting to bodybuilding. In the relative world of sports, they are very similar. What do top level powerlifters do to train for their meets? Crazy shit like Smolov, Westside, Sheiko, Bulgarian Wave Training, and very manner of periodization you can think of. If I am a novice or even intermediate powerlifter, does it necessarily follow that I should emulate the top guys? I’m confident most in the know would say “no.” They would recommend progressive overload, or something very simple like 5/3/1, because less advanced trainees don’t need to engage in the same training as pros in order to progress.
To my mind it’s no different in bodybuilding. The advanced and professionals may have discovered that body-part splits are the best programming for them, but that doesn’t mean somebody well below their level couldn’t progress just as easily on TBT.[/quote]
Fair counter point.
Ok, I agree, one should look at how successful people got to be successful, not necessarily what they do once they are already successful to stay successful (even though there is usually quite a bit of overlap there).
So, where are all of the successful BB’ers saying that beginners or intermediates should avoid splits and do TBT instead? In mean, if your assertion is that these people got successful using TBT and then only switched to splits once they were already accomplished BB’ers, then you’d expect them to be singing the praises of TBT for beginning BB’ers. Yet, strangely enough, the vast majority of them (in fact all of them that I have read) recommend splits to beginners. Sure, sometimes they’ll recommend different types of splits (like Upper/Lower, Push/Pull, etc…), but splits nonetheless.
Even among the Authors who contribute to this site, pretty much all of the Bodybuilders or former BB’ers (JM, Dr Clay Hyght, CT, Shelby Starnes, Scott Abel, etc…) advocate splits. Coincidence, or just a not so subtle bread crumb on the path of success?[/quote]
Maybe I am wrong here but I think the disconnect is that you are looking in terms of absolute for competitive bodybuilding only in your examples. Not building muscle in general, or buidling foundation, balance between strenght/size, or anything not refering to the end product of on stage.
There are tons of authors(um…CT included, look at his background and older stuff) that do advocate it, again none using the absolute end goal of onstage bodybuilding, some of them just dont post anymore. Dan John, Waterbury, Cosgrove, King, even Dave Draper used and advocated a fullbody split in his book. Moral of the story is different strokes for different folks.
Also, aside from my one little joke where I still basically said if you want to look like a bodybuilder or compete onstage TBT is not for you, I am really confused why you think me advocating TBT as a superior way to grow muscle for newbs and a great tool to use 3 or so months of the year(look at my earlier posts) means that I am discrediting body part splits? I mean just look at my very first post here.
[/quote]
Obviously lots of people come into Bodybuilding from different backgrounds (like CT and Sergio Oliva started out as Olympic Lifters), I’m not suggesting that people can’t make some progress training with full body. Also, if your assertion is simply that it can be a valid option for beginners, or to shock your body from time to time, then I do not object to your position. I still believe that if you know right from the get go that bodybuilding is your primary goal you are better off training with splits, but if you or someone else wanted to train with TBT for some reason as a beginner that would be your/their choice. I don’t really understand why you would do that, but it’s your body and you’ve got to find your own path.
I also missed the fact that you were joking with that comment you made; sometimes subtext is difficult to catch via text only. So, I apologize for taking that more seriously than you had intended it to be taken.
[quote]
Sidenote, I also think you, and the masses, generally downplay the role of drugs in the success of high level bodybuilding and bodypart splits. Some of the authors I mentioned(Cosgrove is one I remember) has gone on at lenghts, on this site no less, that the majority of the trainers advocating splits, if having to train a baseline newb, would no doubt have them do TBT first. [/quote]
Here is the thing, Cosgrove, Dan John, Waterbury, and King are not bodybuilding coaches, they are strength and conditioning coaches. None of them look like bodybuilders, have competed successfully in bodybuilding (to the best of my knowledge anyhow), or are known for producing successful bodybuilders. If someone was looking for a good strength and conditioning coach to improve sports performance, then those would all be good choices. Draper is really the only name you mentioned who I would consider to be a reputable source of bodybuilding information.
So again, nearly all of the successful bodybuilding coaches advocate splits, all of the strength and conditioning coaches who don’t look like bodybuilders themselves and don’t regularly train any successful bodybuilders advocate TBT (and some even try make themselves seem more credible by trying to discredit the successful ones by accusing them to all be juiced to the gills and therefore not appropriate for natural lifters) for bodybuilding, even going as far as suggesting that their way is better. Hmmm, well, I know who I’m going to listen to given that choice.