Total Body Training - How Do You Fit Everything In?

Training
41

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I would just like to add that using top level pros(aka the genetic elite) to prove or disprove a training method isn’t fair, these guys would be pretty successful regardless how they trained. That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a lot less DYELers out there who have trained for over a year(on this site as well) if they stopped trying to train like the top level guys and just put a fucking barbell on their back and squatted it, pulled it off the ground, pressed it off their chest, rowed it to their chest, and pressed it over there head 5 times for 5 sets 3 times a week for a good 6 months. […]
[/quote]

Wise words.

Just about all the skinny dudes coming to me asking for advice almost always make amazing improvements when I tell them drop the bro-split and some of the volume and focus on getting stronger. Train like a BBer when you are a BBer.[/quote]

Or never train like a BBer… unless you take drugs, or are actually going to do a competition…even then…maybe I should have saved that for the ‘flame free’ thread lol.

42

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I would just like to add that using top level pros(aka the genetic elite) to prove or disprove a training method isn’t fair, these guys would be pretty successful regardless how they trained. That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a lot less DYELers out there who have trained for over a year(on this site as well) if they stopped trying to train like the top level guys and just put a fucking barbell on their back and squatted it, pulled it off the ground, pressed it off their chest, rowed it to their chest, and pressed it over there head 5 times for 5 sets 3 times a week for a good 6 months. […]
[/quote]

Wise words.

Just about all the skinny dudes coming to me asking for advice almost always make amazing improvements when I tell them drop the bro-split and some of the volume and focus on getting stronger. Train like a BBer when you are a BBer.[/quote]

Or never train like a BBer… unless you take drugs, or are actually going to do a competition…even then…maybe I should have saved that for the ‘flame free’ thread lol. [/quote]

That is such a silly comment I don’t even know where to begin.

It seems to have become popular lately (at least among people on Internet forums, all the big muscular guys I know in person don’t seem to feel the same way) that Bodybuilding is the one sport/activity where all of the really accomplished people are doing this wrong and others seeking success should not follow their lead or try to learn from their (the successful athletes) experiences.

Would you tell an aspiring Football player, “definitely don’t train like the pro football guys do, they are the genetic elite and some use PED’s.” Or tell an aspiring Powerlifter not to train like the top Powerlifters? Heck, name one other sport or physical activity where you would tell up and coming athletes that the best athletes in that sport (who are just as likely to be the genetic elite as BB’ers) are training wrong/sub optimally and instead the up and comers to train how those athletes trained 60-70 years ago (or never trained).

If you want to be a Bodybuilder, train like the best Bodybuilders do. If you want to be a Powerlifter, train like the top Powerlifters do. If you want to be a MMA fighter, Baseball player, Gymnast, Rock Climber, Crossfit athlete, or reach a high level in any sport or physical activity, look at how the top people in the sport currently train and train like that.

43

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
Read this…

[/quote]

That takes me back… HST was the first full body routine I ever did.

I’m always curious to the people that question the efficacy of full body training, have you ever tried it? Seriously if you never did full body training for minimum 6 weeks how can you have any basis to say if it is good or bad?[/quote]

Yes, I have at least.

Also, I am not saying that TBT will not produce any results, it will. My assertion is only that it is not a great choice if bodybuilding is your goal (this thread was originally posted the the BB forum btw, which is when I first responded to it). If you simply want to get stronger, improve sports performance, or “look good naked”, though then TBT could work just fine.[/quote]

just about every bodybuilder through the 40’s and 50’s used TBT and where just as big and proportional as alot of natty pros today.[/quote]

No, they weren’t. Maybe the biggest, most genetically gifted guys of the guys were as big in the off season as the lower Tier Natty Pros of today in contest shape, but today’s genetic elite Natty Pros are bigger, leaner, and more completely developed than anyone from the 40’s or 50’s.[/quote]

i happen to disagree… have any examples of natty pros today drastically bigger and proportional than guys like reg park? pros today do get way more shredded for competition, but thats the only real difference i see. [/quote]

That makes a huge difference though and is significant.

Grimek looked good, no doubt, but he never got all that lean from any of the pictures that I’ve seen of him (which means that he would have been noticeably smaller if he had gotten down to today’s levels of contest condition).

Jim Cordova is one example off the top of my head. Bigger, leaner, and more fully developed.[/quote]

black and white pictures make it harder too see how lean these people where.

people like grimek, reeves and park where all very proportionally developed and had they came in with today’s leanness, they would still be almost the same size as majority of natty pros. [/quote]

What are you talking about? Black and white photos show more detail in terms of leanness than color photos.

Ok, so the absolute genetic elite of that time would be almost as big as today’s lower tier Natty BB’ers. I’d say that would be case closed right there.[/quote]

i meant to say black and white photos couple with the fact they didn’t fake tan back then… thats my bad.

also ive just realized its pointless to try and argue natty bodybuilding considering the fact that there is no real way to prove todays “top tier” bodybuilders are 100% natural. Like CT once said… there is no such thing as natural bodybuilding, just tested and untested show.

44

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I would just like to add that using top level pros(aka the genetic elite) to prove or disprove a training method isn’t fair, these guys would be pretty successful regardless how they trained. That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a lot less DYELers out there who have trained for over a year(on this site as well) if they stopped trying to train like the top level guys and just put a fucking barbell on their back and squatted it, pulled it off the ground, pressed it off their chest, rowed it to their chest, and pressed it over there head 5 times for 5 sets 3 times a week for a good 6 months. […]
[/quote]

Wise words.

Just about all the skinny dudes coming to me asking for advice almost always make amazing improvements when I tell them drop the bro-split and some of the volume and focus on getting stronger. Train like a BBer when you are a BBer.[/quote]

Or never train like a BBer… unless you take drugs, or are actually going to do a competition…even then…maybe I should have saved that for the ‘flame free’ thread lol. [/quote]

That is such a silly comment I don’t even know where to begin.

It seems to have become popular lately (at least among people on Internet forums, all the big muscular guys I know in person don’t seem to feel the same way) that Bodybuilding is the one sport/activity where all of the really accomplished people are doing this wrong and others seeking success should not follow their lead or try to learn from their (the successful athletes) experiences.

Would you tell an aspiring Football player, “definitely don’t train like the pro football guys do, they are the genetic elite and some use PED’s.” Or tell an aspiring Powerlifter not to train like the top Powerlifters? Heck, name one other sport or physical activity where you would tell up and coming athletes that the best athletes in that sport (who are just as likely to be the genetic elite as BB’ers) are training wrong/sub optimally and instead the up and comers to train how those athletes trained 60-70 years ago (or never trained).

If you want to be a Bodybuilder, train like the best Bodybuilders do. If you want to be a Powerlifter, train like the top Powerlifters do. If you want to be a MMA fighter, Baseball player, Gymnast, Rock Climber, Crossfit athlete, or reach a high level in any sport or physical activity, look at how the top people in the sport currently train and train like that.[/quote]

Because bodybuilding isn’t a sport. It’s a beauty pagent that is more determined by genetics in terms of bone structure, muscle shape, insertion points, belly lengh and androgen receptors at the higher levels than training splits. At the top pro level, it is all of the above plus copious amounts of drugs. Telling a 140 person that they need an arm day when they can’t even squat their body weight is what I find silly.

Not sure why you think further arguing with ‘but the biggest guys don’t train that way’ disproves my message or will change my mind.

45

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Also, to be honest most of the people writing articles about how “natural bodybuilders should train with Full Body” (including Waterbury) have never trained any successful natural bodybuilders and don’t look like one themself.

If you’re looking for good bodybuilding coaches on this site look no further than John Meadows. Or if you’re skeptical of John since he is assisted (though, he has also trained many successful naturals including Zraw from this site), check out Jim Cordova’s stuff.

Good luck.[/quote]

Love Zraw, but natty?..

46

[quote]pwolves17 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Also, to be honest most of the people writing articles about how “natural bodybuilders should train with Full Body” (including Waterbury) have never trained any successful natural bodybuilders and don’t look like one themself.

If you’re looking for good bodybuilding coaches on this site look no further than John Meadows. Or if you’re skeptical of John since he is assisted (though, he has also trained many successful naturals including Zraw from this site), check out Jim Cordova’s stuff.

Good luck.[/quote]

Love Zraw, but natty?..[/quote]

I know, Lonnie already called me on that. I’ve been corresponding with Zraw for quite a while on here and for most of that time he was Natty, so I thought of him off the top of my head. I realize that he is no longer Natty, so it was a bad example. My bad.

47

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I would just like to add that using top level pros(aka the genetic elite) to prove or disprove a training method isn’t fair, these guys would be pretty successful regardless how they trained. That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a lot less DYELers out there who have trained for over a year(on this site as well) if they stopped trying to train like the top level guys and just put a fucking barbell on their back and squatted it, pulled it off the ground, pressed it off their chest, rowed it to their chest, and pressed it over there head 5 times for 5 sets 3 times a week for a good 6 months. […]
[/quote]

Wise words.

Just about all the skinny dudes coming to me asking for advice almost always make amazing improvements when I tell them drop the bro-split and some of the volume and focus on getting stronger. Train like a BBer when you are a BBer.[/quote]

Or never train like a BBer… unless you take drugs, or are actually going to do a competition…even then…maybe I should have saved that for the ‘flame free’ thread lol. [/quote]

That is such a silly comment I don’t even know where to begin.

It seems to have become popular lately (at least among people on Internet forums, all the big muscular guys I know in person don’t seem to feel the same way) that Bodybuilding is the one sport/activity where all of the really accomplished people are doing this wrong and others seeking success should not follow their lead or try to learn from their (the successful athletes) experiences.

Would you tell an aspiring Football player, “definitely don’t train like the pro football guys do, they are the genetic elite and some use PED’s.” Or tell an aspiring Powerlifter not to train like the top Powerlifters? Heck, name one other sport or physical activity where you would tell up and coming athletes that the best athletes in that sport (who are just as likely to be the genetic elite as BB’ers) are training wrong/sub optimally and instead the up and comers to train how those athletes trained 60-70 years ago (or never trained).

If you want to be a Bodybuilder, train like the best Bodybuilders do. If you want to be a Powerlifter, train like the top Powerlifters do. If you want to be a MMA fighter, Baseball player, Gymnast, Rock Climber, Crossfit athlete, or reach a high level in any sport or physical activity, look at how the top people in the sport currently train and train like that.[/quote]

Because bodybuilding isn’t a sport. It’s a beauty pagent that is more determined by genetics in terms of bone structure, muscle shape, insertion points, belly lengh and androgen receptors at the higher levels than training splits. At the top pro level, it is all of the above plus copious amounts of drugs. Telling a 140 person that they need an arm day when they can’t even squat their body weight is what I find silly.

Not sure why you think further arguing with ‘but the biggest guys don’t train that way’ disproves my message or will change my mind.
[/quote]

I’m not trying to change your mind, it’s obvious from your posts that I won’t be doing that. I am more so continuing in hopes that some impressionable newbie or intermediate aspiring Bodybuilder happens to read this discussion, realizes the ridiculousness of your argument/logic and saves themselves several years of wasted progress that they may have missed out on.

And who is telling newbies that they “need” an Arm day? Find any of my posts where I have stated that in this thread.

48

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I would just like to add that using top level pros(aka the genetic elite) to prove or disprove a training method isn’t fair, these guys would be pretty successful regardless how they trained. That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a lot less DYELers out there who have trained for over a year(on this site as well) if they stopped trying to train like the top level guys and just put a fucking barbell on their back and squatted it, pulled it off the ground, pressed it off their chest, rowed it to their chest, and pressed it over there head 5 times for 5 sets 3 times a week for a good 6 months. […]
[/quote]

Wise words.

Just about all the skinny dudes coming to me asking for advice almost always make amazing improvements when I tell them drop the bro-split and some of the volume and focus on getting stronger. Train like a BBer when you are a BBer.[/quote]

Or never train like a BBer… unless you take drugs, or are actually going to do a competition…even then…maybe I should have saved that for the ‘flame free’ thread lol. [/quote]

That is such a silly comment I don’t even know where to begin.

It seems to have become popular lately (at least among people on Internet forums, all the big muscular guys I know in person don’t seem to feel the same way) that Bodybuilding is the one sport/activity where all of the really accomplished people are doing this wrong and others seeking success should not follow their lead or try to learn from their (the successful athletes) experiences.

Would you tell an aspiring Football player, “definitely don’t train like the pro football guys do, they are the genetic elite and some use PED’s.” Or tell an aspiring Powerlifter not to train like the top Powerlifters? Heck, name one other sport or physical activity where you would tell up and coming athletes that the best athletes in that sport (who are just as likely to be the genetic elite as BB’ers) are training wrong/sub optimally and instead the up and comers to train how those athletes trained 60-70 years ago (or never trained).

If you want to be a Bodybuilder, train like the best Bodybuilders do. If you want to be a Powerlifter, train like the top Powerlifters do. If you want to be a MMA fighter, Baseball player, Gymnast, Rock Climber, Crossfit athlete, or reach a high level in any sport or physical activity, look at how the top people in the sport currently train and train like that.[/quote]

what the best are currently doing could be very different from what they did in the beginning… telling someone to simply train like the best is not good advice. yes you can adopt some concepts from the pros, but to say look at how they train and train like that is stupid considering 99% of people are nowhere near advanced enough to worry about training like a fucking pro bodybuilder…

49

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I would just like to add that using top level pros(aka the genetic elite) to prove or disprove a training method isn’t fair, these guys would be pretty successful regardless how they trained. That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a lot less DYELers out there who have trained for over a year(on this site as well) if they stopped trying to train like the top level guys and just put a fucking barbell on their back and squatted it, pulled it off the ground, pressed it off their chest, rowed it to their chest, and pressed it over there head 5 times for 5 sets 3 times a week for a good 6 months. […]
[/quote]

Wise words.

Just about all the skinny dudes coming to me asking for advice almost always make amazing improvements when I tell them drop the bro-split and some of the volume and focus on getting stronger. Train like a BBer when you are a BBer.[/quote]

Or never train like a BBer… unless you take drugs, or are actually going to do a competition…even then…maybe I should have saved that for the ‘flame free’ thread lol. [/quote]

That is such a silly comment I don’t even know where to begin.

It seems to have become popular lately (at least among people on Internet forums, all the big muscular guys I know in person don’t seem to feel the same way) that Bodybuilding is the one sport/activity where all of the really accomplished people are doing this wrong and others seeking success should not follow their lead or try to learn from their (the successful athletes) experiences.

Would you tell an aspiring Football player, “definitely don’t train like the pro football guys do, they are the genetic elite and some use PED’s.” Or tell an aspiring Powerlifter not to train like the top Powerlifters? Heck, name one other sport or physical activity where you would tell up and coming athletes that the best athletes in that sport (who are just as likely to be the genetic elite as BB’ers) are training wrong/sub optimally and instead the up and comers to train how those athletes trained 60-70 years ago (or never trained).

If you want to be a Bodybuilder, train like the best Bodybuilders do. If you want to be a Powerlifter, train like the top Powerlifters do. If you want to be a MMA fighter, Baseball player, Gymnast, Rock Climber, Crossfit athlete, or reach a high level in any sport or physical activity, look at how the top people in the sport currently train and train like that.[/quote]

Because bodybuilding isn’t a sport. It’s a beauty pagent that is more determined by genetics in terms of bone structure, muscle shape, insertion points, belly lengh and androgen receptors at the higher levels than training splits. At the top pro level, it is all of the above plus copious amounts of drugs. Telling a 140 person that they need an arm day when they can’t even squat their body weight is what I find silly.

Not sure why you think further arguing with ‘but the biggest guys don’t train that way’ disproves my message or will change my mind.
[/quote]

I’m not trying to change your mind, it’s obvious from your posts that I won’t be doing that. I am more so continuing in hopes that some impressionable newbie or intermediate aspiring Bodybuilder happens to read this discussion, realizes the ridiculousness of your argument/logic and saves themselves several years of wasted progress that they may have missed out on.

And who is telling newbies that they “need” an Arm day? Find any of my posts where I have stated that in this thread. [/quote]

I’ll bite. If you are only doing this to warn the noobs then please offer reasons as to why full body training is a poor method and why body part splits will be better for them aside from it didn’t work for you and top level competitors don’t train that way currently at their top level.

At least give them something to make their decision in, in my first post on page 1 and throughout I gave mine. You continually say my logic is silly but haven’t explained why.

Just for the record, you know as well as I that if in fact there are newbs at home reading this and basing decisions on their training over your opinion or mind, instead of doing their homework with the thousands of articles and books by well established authors, coaches and trainers, well I doubt it matters how they train if they are that uninformed and impressionable.

50

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]pwolves17 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Also, to be honest most of the people writing articles about how “natural bodybuilders should train with Full Body” (including Waterbury) have never trained any successful natural bodybuilders and don’t look like one themself.

If you’re looking for good bodybuilding coaches on this site look no further than John Meadows. Or if you’re skeptical of John since he is assisted (though, he has also trained many successful naturals including Zraw from this site), check out Jim Cordova’s stuff.

Good luck.[/quote]

Love Zraw, but natty?..[/quote]

I know, Lonnie already called me on that. I’ve been corresponding with Zraw for quite a while on here and for most of that time he was Natty, so I thought of him off the top of my head. I realize that he is no longer Natty, so it was a bad example. My bad.[/quote]

Ebomb one if the biggest nattys does jM training.

51

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I would just like to add that using top level pros(aka the genetic elite) to prove or disprove a training method isn’t fair, these guys would be pretty successful regardless how they trained. That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a lot less DYELers out there who have trained for over a year(on this site as well) if they stopped trying to train like the top level guys and just put a fucking barbell on their back and squatted it, pulled it off the ground, pressed it off their chest, rowed it to their chest, and pressed it over there head 5 times for 5 sets 3 times a week for a good 6 months. […]
[/quote]

Wise words.

Just about all the skinny dudes coming to me asking for advice almost always make amazing improvements when I tell them drop the bro-split and some of the volume and focus on getting stronger. Train like a BBer when you are a BBer.[/quote]

Or never train like a BBer… unless you take drugs, or are actually going to do a competition…even then…maybe I should have saved that for the ‘flame free’ thread lol. [/quote]

That is such a silly comment I don’t even know where to begin.

It seems to have become popular lately (at least among people on Internet forums, all the big muscular guys I know in person don’t seem to feel the same way) that Bodybuilding is the one sport/activity where all of the really accomplished people are doing this wrong and others seeking success should not follow their lead or try to learn from their (the successful athletes) experiences.

Would you tell an aspiring Football player, “definitely don’t train like the pro football guys do, they are the genetic elite and some use PED’s.” Or tell an aspiring Powerlifter not to train like the top Powerlifters? Heck, name one other sport or physical activity where you would tell up and coming athletes that the best athletes in that sport (who are just as likely to be the genetic elite as BB’ers) are training wrong/sub optimally and instead the up and comers to train how those athletes trained 60-70 years ago (or never trained).

If you want to be a Bodybuilder, train like the best Bodybuilders do. If you want to be a Powerlifter, train like the top Powerlifters do. If you want to be a MMA fighter, Baseball player, Gymnast, Rock Climber, Crossfit athlete, or reach a high level in any sport or physical activity, look at how the top people in the sport currently train and train like that.[/quote]

Because bodybuilding isn’t a sport. It’s a beauty pagent that is more determined by genetics in terms of bone structure, muscle shape, insertion points, belly lengh and androgen receptors at the higher levels than training splits. At the top pro level, it is all of the above plus copious amounts of drugs. Telling a 140 person that they need an arm day when they can’t even squat their body weight is what I find silly.

Not sure why you think further arguing with ‘but the biggest guys don’t train that way’ disproves my message or will change my mind.
[/quote]

I’m not trying to change your mind, it’s obvious from your posts that I won’t be doing that. I am more so continuing in hopes that some impressionable newbie or intermediate aspiring Bodybuilder happens to read this discussion, realizes the ridiculousness of your argument/logic and saves themselves several years of wasted progress that they may have missed out on.

And who is telling newbies that they “need” an Arm day? Find any of my posts where I have stated that in this thread. [/quote]

I’ll bite. If you are only doing this to warn the noobs then please offer reasons as to why full body training is a poor method and why body part splits will be better for them aside from it didn’t work for you and top level competitors don’t train that way currently at their top level.

At least give them something to make their decision in, in my first post on page 1 and throughout I gave mine. You continually say my logic is silly but haven’t explained why.

Just for the record, you know as well as I that if in fact there are newbs at home reading this and basing decisions on their training over your opinion or mind, instead of doing their homework with the thousands of articles and books by well established authors, coaches and trainers, well I doubt it matters how they train if they are that uninformed and impressionable. [/quote]

What more compelling evidence could I offer than to say “here are how the best in the world do/did this”?

If I were a financial advisor and you came to me looking for advice on how to turn your struggling business into a big successful business, would you scoff at my answer if I told you, “do X, Y, and Z; that’s how 90% of the successful businesses in your field became successful.”??? Would you in that situation have put more stock in my advice if instead of telling you that most of the successful people had done things that way, instead I had instead given you some sort of “logic” based reasoning or said “scientists in a lab reasearching (who have never successfully built a successful business in your field) people’s brains when it comes to purchasing your product say to do A, B, and C instead.”?

Just because you don’t like my explanation/reason and cannot rebutt it does not mean that it’s not valid.

52

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I would just like to add that using top level pros(aka the genetic elite) to prove or disprove a training method isn’t fair, these guys would be pretty successful regardless how they trained. That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a lot less DYELers out there who have trained for over a year(on this site as well) if they stopped trying to train like the top level guys and just put a fucking barbell on their back and squatted it, pulled it off the ground, pressed it off their chest, rowed it to their chest, and pressed it over there head 5 times for 5 sets 3 times a week for a good 6 months. […]
[/quote]

Wise words.

Just about all the skinny dudes coming to me asking for advice almost always make amazing improvements when I tell them drop the bro-split and some of the volume and focus on getting stronger. Train like a BBer when you are a BBer.[/quote]

Or never train like a BBer… unless you take drugs, or are actually going to do a competition…even then…maybe I should have saved that for the ‘flame free’ thread lol. [/quote]

That is such a silly comment I don’t even know where to begin.

It seems to have become popular lately (at least among people on Internet forums, all the big muscular guys I know in person don’t seem to feel the same way) that Bodybuilding is the one sport/activity where all of the really accomplished people are doing this wrong and others seeking success should not follow their lead or try to learn from their (the successful athletes) experiences.

Would you tell an aspiring Football player, “definitely don’t train like the pro football guys do, they are the genetic elite and some use PED’s.” Or tell an aspiring Powerlifter not to train like the top Powerlifters? Heck, name one other sport or physical activity where you would tell up and coming athletes that the best athletes in that sport (who are just as likely to be the genetic elite as BB’ers) are training wrong/sub optimally and instead the up and comers to train how those athletes trained 60-70 years ago (or never trained).

If you want to be a Bodybuilder, train like the best Bodybuilders do. If you want to be a Powerlifter, train like the top Powerlifters do. If you want to be a MMA fighter, Baseball player, Gymnast, Rock Climber, Crossfit athlete, or reach a high level in any sport or physical activity, look at how the top people in the sport currently train and train like that.[/quote]

Because bodybuilding isn’t a sport. It’s a beauty pagent that is more determined by genetics in terms of bone structure, muscle shape, insertion points, belly lengh and androgen receptors at the higher levels than training splits. At the top pro level, it is all of the above plus copious amounts of drugs. Telling a 140 person that they need an arm day when they can’t even squat their body weight is what I find silly.

Not sure why you think further arguing with ‘but the biggest guys don’t train that way’ disproves my message or will change my mind.
[/quote]

I’m not trying to change your mind, it’s obvious from your posts that I won’t be doing that. I am more so continuing in hopes that some impressionable newbie or intermediate aspiring Bodybuilder happens to read this discussion, realizes the ridiculousness of your argument/logic and saves themselves several years of wasted progress that they may have missed out on.

And who is telling newbies that they “need” an Arm day? Find any of my posts where I have stated that in this thread. [/quote]

I’ll bite. If you are only doing this to warn the noobs then please offer reasons as to why full body training is a poor method and why body part splits will be better for them aside from it didn’t work for you and top level competitors don’t train that way currently at their top level.

At least give them something to make their decision in, in my first post on page 1 and throughout I gave mine. You continually say my logic is silly but haven’t explained why.

Just for the record, you know as well as I that if in fact there are newbs at home reading this and basing decisions on their training over your opinion or mind, instead of doing their homework with the thousands of articles and books by well established authors, coaches and trainers, well I doubt it matters how they train if they are that uninformed and impressionable. [/quote]

What more compelling evidence could I offer than to say “here are how the best in the world do/did this”?

If I were a financial advisor and you came to me looking for advice on how to turn your struggling business into a big successful business, would you scoff at my answer if I told you, “do X, Y, and Z; that’s how 90% of the successful businesses in your field became successful.”??? Would you in that situation have put more stock in my advice if instead of telling you that most of the successful people had done things that way, instead I had instead given you some sort of “logic” based reasoning or said “scientists in a lab reasearching (who have never successfully built a successful business in your field) people’s brains when it comes to purchasing your product say to do A, B, and C instead.”?

Just because you don’t like my explanation/reason and cannot rebutt it does not mean that it’s not valid.
[/quote]

I already addressed my response to that.

53

I like the business analogy, because it helps illustrate Waittz’s point, too, I believe.

Let’s say you make your own beer, and it’s pretty good/popular with your friends and neighbors. You go to a consultant to ask how to turn that into a small business. I 100% guarantee you that consultant will not tell you to structure your business like Coors, Bud, etc. You actually have more in common with other small businesses in the food/beverage industry (possibly even other industries) than you do with the behemoth beer manufacturers.

Why? Because you aren’t on their level. Those companies didn’t start doing business the way they are doing it now. They grew, developed, advanced and changed. They had an IPO, hired a board of directors, a CEO, etc. to meet new demands.

Similarly, you don’t start with the end in lifting weights. Yes, I agree that the vast majority of top level guys do splits, but it doesn’t follow that you should necessarily emulate that behavior to get where they are. Is there a lot to learn from those guys? Absolutely, just as a small beer start-up could still learn a lot from Bud, but that doesn’t mean that the start-up should emulate every aspect of the successful giant.

Compare powerlifting to bodybuilding. In the relative world of sports, they are very similar. What do top level powerlifters do to train for their meets? Crazy shit like Smolov, Westside, Sheiko, Bulgarian Wave Training, and very manner of periodization you can think of. If I am a novice or even intermediate powerlifter, does it necessarily follow that I should emulate the top guys? I’m confident most in the know would say “no.” They would recommend progressive overload, or something very simple like 5/3/1, because less advanced trainees don’t need to engage in the same training as pros in order to progress.

To my mind it’s no different in bodybuilding. The advanced and professionals may have discovered that body-part splits are the best programming for them, but that doesn’t mean somebody well below their level couldn’t progress just as easily on TBT.

54

This is a fun circular convo.

55

Almost all arguments, particularly on the internet, become circular pretty quickly.

56

[quote]Mad Martigan wrote:
I like the business analogy, because it helps illustrate Waittz’s point, too, I believe.

Let’s say you make your own beer, and it’s pretty good/popular with your friends and neighbors. You go to a consultant to ask how to turn that into a small business. I 100% guarantee you that consultant will not tell you to structure your business like Coors, Bud, etc. You actually have more in common with other small businesses in the food/beverage industry (possibly even other industries) than you do with the behemoth beer manufacturers.

Why? Because you aren’t on their level. Those companies didn’t start doing business the way they are doing it now. They grew, developed, advanced and changed. They had an IPO, hired a board of directors, a CEO, etc. to meet new demands.

Similarly, you don’t start with the end in lifting weights. Yes, I agree that the vast majority of top level guys do splits, but it doesn’t follow that you should necessarily emulate that behavior to get where they are. Is there a lot to learn from those guys? Absolutely, just as a small beer start-up could still learn a lot from Bud, but that doesn’t mean that the start-up should emulate every aspect of the successful giant.

Compare powerlifting to bodybuilding. In the relative world of sports, they are very similar. What do top level powerlifters do to train for their meets? Crazy shit like Smolov, Westside, Sheiko, Bulgarian Wave Training, and very manner of periodization you can think of. If I am a novice or even intermediate powerlifter, does it necessarily follow that I should emulate the top guys? I’m confident most in the know would say “no.” They would recommend progressive overload, or something very simple like 5/3/1, because less advanced trainees don’t need to engage in the same training as pros in order to progress.

To my mind it’s no different in bodybuilding. The advanced and professionals may have discovered that body-part splits are the best programming for them, but that doesn’t mean somebody well below their level couldn’t progress just as easily on TBT.[/quote]

That is a pretty good analogy.

57

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]pwolves17 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Also, to be honest most of the people writing articles about how “natural bodybuilders should train with Full Body” (including Waterbury) have never trained any successful natural bodybuilders and don’t look like one themself.

If you’re looking for good bodybuilding coaches on this site look no further than John Meadows. Or if you’re skeptical of John since he is assisted (though, he has also trained many successful naturals including Zraw from this site), check out Jim Cordova’s stuff.

Good luck.[/quote]

Love Zraw, but natty?..[/quote]

I know, Lonnie already called me on that. I’ve been corresponding with Zraw for quite a while on here and for most of that time he was Natty, so I thought of him off the top of my head. I realize that he is no longer Natty, so it was a bad example. My bad.[/quote]

Gotcha, my bad. Didn’t read the whole thread before posting. He definitely built an impressive physique before going the assisted route

58

[quote]ryan.b_96 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:

[quote]giograves wrote:

[quote]Waittz wrote:
I would just like to add that using top level pros(aka the genetic elite) to prove or disprove a training method isn’t fair, these guys would be pretty successful regardless how they trained. That being said, I have a sneaking suspicion there would be a lot less DYELers out there who have trained for over a year(on this site as well) if they stopped trying to train like the top level guys and just put a fucking barbell on their back and squatted it, pulled it off the ground, pressed it off their chest, rowed it to their chest, and pressed it over there head 5 times for 5 sets 3 times a week for a good 6 months. […]
[/quote]

Wise words.

Just about all the skinny dudes coming to me asking for advice almost always make amazing improvements when I tell them drop the bro-split and some of the volume and focus on getting stronger. Train like a BBer when you are a BBer.[/quote]

Or never train like a BBer… unless you take drugs, or are actually going to do a competition…even then…maybe I should have saved that for the ‘flame free’ thread lol. [/quote]

That is such a silly comment I don’t even know where to begin.

It seems to have become popular lately (at least among people on Internet forums, all the big muscular guys I know in person don’t seem to feel the same way) that Bodybuilding is the one sport/activity where all of the really accomplished people are doing this wrong and others seeking success should not follow their lead or try to learn from their (the successful athletes) experiences.

Would you tell an aspiring Football player, “definitely don’t train like the pro football guys do, they are the genetic elite and some use PED’s.” Or tell an aspiring Powerlifter not to train like the top Powerlifters? Heck, name one other sport or physical activity where you would tell up and coming athletes that the best athletes in that sport (who are just as likely to be the genetic elite as BB’ers) are training wrong/sub optimally and instead the up and comers to train how those athletes trained 60-70 years ago (or never trained).

If you want to be a Bodybuilder, train like the best Bodybuilders do. If you want to be a Powerlifter, train like the top Powerlifters do. If you want to be a MMA fighter, Baseball player, Gymnast, Rock Climber, Crossfit athlete, or reach a high level in any sport or physical activity, look at how the top people in the sport currently train and train like that.[/quote]

what the best are currently doing could be very different from what they did in the beginning… telling someone to simply train like the best is not good advice. yes you can adopt some concepts from the pros, but to say look at how they train and train like that is stupid considering 99% of people are nowhere near advanced enough to worry about training like a fucking pro bodybuilder…[/quote]

Your first sentence is a valid point, but with today’s wealth of information and access to the Pros (both Natural and Assisted), it’s pretty easy to find out what they did to reach their level. And honestly, many of them (especially the natural guys) advise training like they currently do, or have actually been doing some sort of variation of what they are currently doing right from the start. I don’t know why you assume that their current training regime wouldn’t work for a beginner or intermediate.

For instance we know exactly how Dorian Yates, Skip Lacour, and Jeff Willet trained right from the get go, which were split routines. All of them reached the pinnacles of their sport (Dorian was a multiple time Mr Olympia while Skip and Jeff won the most prestigious competition in the NPC’s “natural”/tested division). We know that Jim Cordova advises and actually trains total newbies using a split routine and he has won the World Natural Bodybuilding Association’s (WNBA) highest title (World Champion), as well as also winning the WNBF Pro Mr Universe and Pro Mr America title multiples times each (in other world he is one of the most successful Natural Bodybuilders in the world in one of the most respected natural BB’ing organizations).

Might you be able to find some highly successful BB’ers who did TBT for a stint at the beginning of their BB’ing training career or did some at some point during their career? Sure, you might. But they all eventually switched to splits because splits are just more effective for BB’ing. Thus my assertion that if you want to be a successful bodybuilder, then you should train how successful BB’ers train still holds true.

I really don’t understand your objection to that statement. I’m not saying that everyone must train like that (if their goals are different), just people who’s goal is primarily to build a bodybuilding physique or actually compete as a Bodybuilder successfully. If those aren’t your goals, then obviously that statement wouldn’t apply to you.

59

[quote]ryanbCXG wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:

[quote]pwolves17 wrote:

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
Also, to be honest most of the people writing articles about how “natural bodybuilders should train with Full Body” (including Waterbury) have never trained any successful natural bodybuilders and don’t look like one themself.

If you’re looking for good bodybuilding coaches on this site look no further than John Meadows. Or if you’re skeptical of John since he is assisted (though, he has also trained many successful naturals including Zraw from this site), check out Jim Cordova’s stuff.

Good luck.[/quote]

Love Zraw, but natty?..[/quote]

I know, Lonnie already called me on that. I’ve been corresponding with Zraw for quite a while on here and for most of that time he was Natty, so I thought of him off the top of my head. I realize that he is no longer Natty, so it was a bad example. My bad.[/quote]

Ebomb one if the biggest nattys does jM training.
[/quote]

Yeah, good call.

60

I’m not advocating either way, but didn’t Arthur Jones advocate TBT (at least his versions) and didn’t he turn out at least a few examples?