Top Bodybuilding Mistakes: Gironda

Training Bodybuilding
41

[quote]“Do Wide-Grip Bench Press to the Neck to build your pecs — my rotator cuffs are cringing just thinking about it!”

dez6485 wrote:
-actually, these are pretty good, you should give them a try. i have had things irritate my shoulders in the past, these dont at all. they are harder, meaning you cant take the same weight you “regular” press for 10 reps and do it to the neck for 10 reps…or at least i couldnt.

when i perform these there is a very very clear difference from a regular bench, its almost all put onto the upper portion of my chest. in fact, i think its place falls in being an alternative, if not a replacement, for incline work…again, personal experience, i feel this much more in my upper pecs than regular inclines.[/quote]

Yeah I have tried them in my younger days and remember a great deal of upper pec soreness/stimulation. But I also read from somewhere other than “someone’s opinion” (I’m pretty sure it was a kinesiologist) that this movement was dangerous for the shoulders.

Based on the response from a few of youze guys, I may have to give them a try again some time — carefully.

Thanks,
Scott

42

[quote]

  1. Over training! (Anything over 45 minutes is over training.)[/quote]

    Remember that Gironda was all about Density in training. His conditioned athletes took as little as 10-15 seconds between sets. If you are taking rest periods that are as miniscule as this and still working out for well over an hour, you might be overdoing it. [/quote]

Refer to No.1- I think he is talking about the long rest periods (60-190s) of rest.

Again, if you were training under Girondas principles, you would simply not have the stamina to perform at your best. TBT is the new rage, and thats cool. I use TBT because of time restraints. However, if I was utilizing someone of Girondas ideas (sets/reps, and rest periods) I would be training like a 6th grade girl at the end of my workout.

For most, the Bench press becomes a shoulder and tricep excerise about halfway through the 2nd set. I think here, Gironda is comparing how well neck pressed and chest dips work in comparison to benching. However, great chests have been built using other methods.

In Girondas day, lean cuts of meat were not as readily available nor cost effective as they are today. Eating protein often large amounts of fat. I think this inclusion of fats probably attributed to this idea. However, modern science has proven this fallable. Regardless, I think it can be agreed upon that eating highly fatty cuts of meat with large quantity of starchy carbs is not your best route.

Not sure too many people debate this.

This ties in to alot if his leg training training ideas. For a lot of people, once squatting a very heavy amount of weight, the use of the quads become secondary to the hips and glutes. When training for aesthetic purposes, using variations on the squats is more beneficial for the quads than other movements.

[/quote]27. No knowledge of combining exercises.[/quote]

I akin this to a friend who I recently started let train with me. He though supersetting with heavy rows and curls would be a good idea. Obviously, once will defeat the other.

Ever met the the frat boy who doesnt know why the MWF split hes been using since his first year doesnt still work, even though he has switched from 3x8 to 3x10?

Gironda was ahead of his time. Not all of our ‘expert’ writers will be proven completely true in time. In fact, not all that is “proven” actually works, and not all that actually works is “proven”.

You should be able to weed through the ideas that Gironda had and see the ones that may not be the best and discard them. Conversely, you should be able to take some of the ideas and apply them to your own training.

People keep alluding to the idea that Gironda was not freakishly large, and that excludes him from giving expert bodybuilding advice.

ARE YOU KIDDING ME?

As a high skilled, and highly trained classical musician, I can tell you that some of the best teachers in the world cannot replicate what they are able to verbalize. However, these guys turn out some amazing students.

Gironda is just like any other avenue in life. You take what is useful and relevant for you, and you utilize it. You take what doesnt work for you, and you keep it in the back of your mind.

43

[quote]Magarhe wrote:
This is a good thread. Just remember that not everything works for everybody, and then, not all the time neither.

All ideas presented by all coaches should be tried, tested, and if they do not work for you, changed. [/quote]

The only issue I have with this thread…is the statement above. No, everything should not be tried and tested. If you have to go through EVERYTHING these authors come out with before you find something that works, you are doing it WRONG and chances are, the problem is not the routine.

I just see this mentality on this board a lot, even if this isn’t exactly what you, Magarhe, are implying. The best teacher most of these guys could have is following the routine of someone in their gym who they are friends enough with who just happens to much stronger and even more dedicated than they are.

I have seen people on this forum degrade those big guys in the gym as if they don’t know what they are talking about because they don’t read articles on the internet and can’t name 10 different brand named routines. I don’t read most of the articles on this site.

Gironda was another trainer. Research them and understand what they had to say for your own knowledge base. However, believing you need to FOLLOW what every author says is just plain stupid and missing the point.

44

[quote]GJA_BOSTON wrote:
At what point did I compare him with Serge or Zane?[/quote]

At the point where I said he was skinny and you said he wasn’t. If he was just a trainer I could’ve understood that, but he was also a bodybuilder. And as a bodybuilder he sucked.

[quote]GJA_BOSTON wrote:
I believe won or placed very high on some senior competions when he was in his 40’s or 50’s.[/quote]

I’m glad that he beat all the seniors but comparing him to the bodybuilders of his time would only further my point.

[quote]GJA_BOSTON wrote:
Larry Scott, Arnold Schwarzenegger, Sergio Oliva, Freddy Ortiz, Mohamed Makkawy, Don Howorth, Reg Lewis, all trained with him at some point and…[/quote]

And he sucked as a bodybuilder compared to all of them.

45

During his time, Gironda was so far ahead of everyone in his knowledge about building an aesthetic physique, that it borders on being insane.

And based on some of the reponses I’ve read, he would still be ahead of a lot of people.

If he was alive today, I would certainly take his advice before I would take some if the advice I’ve read on this thread.

Mufasa

46

The chiropractor I bought my power rack from said he spent a week in Calif. training under Gironda. According to him, it was Vince’s way or the highway. I agree with a lot of Gironda’s principles and respect his contributions to bodybuilding but don’t believe in blindly following someone’s ideas.

47
  1. He advised 15-20 second rest length which causes one to finish quicker.
  2. see above
  3. He believed in total isolation of the abdominals, that means taking out the psoas. He also advised using 30 degree incline leg raises.
  4. Abs should be worked like the calves, high reps and not every workout.
  5. Many bodybuilders have used splits successfully, but there are still men like Reeves using only total body workouts. Vince also stated Reeves was the greatest bodybuilder ever.
  6. Touching your sternum works the lower lats extensively, just ask LArry Scott.
  7. Not sure what toe raises are.
  8. He means benchs that are done conventionally, he believed a wide grip to the neck isolates the pecs more.
  9. This has worked for me to feel a greater isolation on my chest even though the weight is a little lower.
  10. Vince tired to sculpt greek proportions with all of his students, meaning you can’t have massive glutes and waist. I think it depends on the structure of the trainee, Reeves did full squats and had a 29 inch waist and the best proportions ever.
  11. He thought that leg presses were worse than squats for reasons above.
  12. One must find the correct balance of sets and reps, and variety.
  13. This speaks of cheating from rep 1.
  14. Most presses work the front deltoid and if you listened before, the bench makes the front dle more developed than the outer and posterior.
  15. This is about the concentraion curl which he believed only genetic superiors could use well.
  16. Don’t have any knowledge of this.
  17. This again depends on genetics, but he believed different variations of the pull down could work better.
  18. Makes sense if you need extra forearm work. Vince even said if you get enough developement from the other exercises, these could be skipped.
  19. Duh.
  20. This, if done excessively, will increase the width of your sides, making your shoulders look more narrow.
  21. He believed the whole body must function properly for optimum preformance.
  22. Doing this isolates the lats greatly.
  23. He had his own way of correctly preforming this exercise.
  24. Again he used this exercise, but not conventionally.
  25. Amen. One must isolate every muscle to obtain full, well rounded developement.
  26. Larry Scott advocates and used this exercise with tremendous rersults. His description is the same as Girondas.
  27. Good. Fitting combinations give better developement.
  28. True, the body adapts quickly to exercise. You don’t need to change exercises, but reps, sets and rest periods are all changes.
  29. Good, everyoine hits them, and must get out.
  30. Obviuosly if a body part is growing slowly, it needs extra work.
  31. Good advice, one can’t get everything thtrtough diet.
  32. Every great bodybuilder advocates this. Arnie (became a true champ after Vince kicked his ass), Scott, and Reeves.
  33. He means a truely knowledgeable bodybuilder, to help gide you in training.
  34. Sounds like a fair amount of people on this thread can’ seem to follow this advice.
  35. Vince believed that one doesn’t need jogging to lose fat or be in cardiovascular shape. He believed, if followed correctly, could be obtained by his 8x8 or 10x10.

Remember Vince didn’t use roids, or creatine or things like that, and he had 17 inch unflexed arms. Last i checked, that is pretty damn good when there isn’t a freakin ounce of fat on him. Also one must look at his genetics to judge his developlement. His training methods worked for champions that he trained, Arnold, Scott, Mohamed Makkawy, and a load of movie stars that worked out for maybe amonth then stopped. This is why they didn’t remain or get into outstanding shape.

48

eturner: Lots of great points. However, from everyting I’ve read, the following is incorrect:

“10. Vince tired to sculpt greek proportions with all of his students, meaning you can’t have massive glutes and waist. I think it depends on the structure of the trainee, Reeves did full squats and had a 29 inch waist and the best proportions ever.”

Reeves concentrated mainly on front and hack squats. These account for his awesome teardrop quads and non-overdeveloped glutes.

49

Simon, you are right on Reeves using hacks and fronts, but in his book, he states on of the best leg builders that he had used was 100 rep full squats with 1/2 his bodyweight. He figured this out during his stint in the army, due to lack of equipment. This is an ass kicker if done slowly and with correct form. But build up to the weight or you may get hurt.
Thanks for the reply.

50

after just glancing over that list, i can say confidently that that list is 99% crap.

lists like that usually are crap. just FYI.

51

Maybe Gironda was the best thing since sliced bread, I don’t know, I haven’t bothered to read his stuff. However, all of the information on this list is either obvious or wrong. I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by reading it unless you have very little knowledge of weightlifting.

52

Supposedly, when he first met Arnold, he called him a “fat fuck”.
If I were The Oak, I would have grabbed him by those pistol grip ears and broke my foot off in his ass.
I do however agree with some of his ideas and enthusiasm.

53

[quote]cap’nsalty wrote:
Maybe Gironda was the best thing since sliced bread, I don’t know, I haven’t bothered to read his stuff. However, all of the information on this list is either obvious or wrong. I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by reading it unless you have very little knowledge of weightlifting.[/quote]

First of all, he was talking about bodybuilding, not weightlifting.

How about some specifics of this wrongness? Why don’t you, and hueyOT, “illuminate us” with some of your expertise?

I’m not saying you’re mistaken. I just have a problem with people that say “oh that list is all wrong” or “that list is 99% crap” w/o offering examples. So please, illuminate away…

54

…Just as I thought. All bark and no bite.

55

[quote]Radjxf wrote:
Supposedly, when he first met Arnold, he called him a “fat fuck”.
If I were The Oak, I would have grabbed him by those pistol grip ears and broke my foot off in his ass.
I do however agree with some of his ideas and enthusiasm. [/quote]

I heard that too. What a wanker.

56

I disagree with a few of the items listed.

I don’t think there is anything wrong with working push/pull and lower body the same day. This goes back to the full body discussion recently introduced. Reference those articles for more discussion on the full body angle.

I also don’t think jogging is bad. I read an article by a triathlete, and he talked about how running at a heart rate below 180 minus your age teaches your body over time to improve its ability to use fat for energy. I think improving the bodies ability to use fat for energy is a good thing.

I prefer to have endurance and strength.

57

[quote]Radjxf wrote:
Supposedly, when he first met Arnold, he called him a “fat fuck”.
If I were The Oak, I would have grabbed him by those pistol grip ears and broke my foot off in his ass.
I do however agree with some of his ideas and enthusiasm. [/quote]

Well dude, even when asked, Arnold said that he could agree with Vince as he only brought to attention what he saw. Also, all of the text i have read said that Arnold was overbulked when he came to America. Vince’s 8x8 is what really got him shredded.

58

“Table of Contents”. That list represents no more than a table of contents of a book. As such, it just brushes the surface of what Vince believed. It states his ideas, yet doesn’t offer the supporting explanation.
Also, either the list quoted Vince incorrectly, or Vince later changed his mind on some of these items. In any case, some of these just aren’t true.
For example, Vince did advocate leg extensions, single arm exercises and at least one dumbell pressing movement for deltoids. I have his DVD’s and most of his books. He uses all these exercises in his “A muscle has Four Sides” booklet. If I could scan it in here, I would.
Also, Vince didn’t like long exercise periods, yet his programs often mandated performing the same exercise session, i.e. back, chest, shoulders, twice a day, morning and night.

I also read the book “True Lies” about Arnold. I can’t vouch for its accuracy. Yet, Arnold tends to be a control freak concerning stories about his past. I’ve got to believe Arnold would litigate any unflattering statement made authored without proof. Plus, the statements contain the “ring of truth”.

Arnold competed in Europe when European bodybuilders sought massive size and cared less about definition than American bodybuilders. Arnold’s first two contests in America resulted in his defeat to more defined bodybuilders. Arnold couldn’t believe the definition of American bodybuilders, he said, “they looked like they were carved out of mahogany”. Joe Weider sent his investment, Arnold, to Vince to get in shape. Arnold introduced himself to Vince expecting praise saying “How do I look” and Vince replied “You look like a fat fuck to me”. Arnold stayed with Vince for two months and then moved on to Santa Monica. The book infered that training in Santa Monica allowed Arnold more access and freedom to use steroids, and that Vince and Arnold didn’t see eye to eye on this subject. Vince strongly discouraged the use of steroids, (although one account stated he looked the other way for one his students before an international contest), whereas Arnolds’ own trainer in Graz, Austria stated Arnold began using steroids as a young teenager.

I’ve used Vince’s programs for four months and never had so much success. I’ve lifted for thirty years, and competed in the AAU. Previously, I thought his ideas were eccentric, now I’m never going back. I regret I did not find his system earlier.
And, I’m shocked and amazed that his ideas do not exist among the mainstream philosophys of bodybuilding. I think it indicates a transition from obtaining bodybuilding success through exercise, diet and discipline alone, to adding pharmaceuticals to the equation at the expense of smart, effective drug-free training.

59

Great post smart bulldog.

60

[quote]simon-hecubus wrote:
cap’nsalty wrote:
Maybe Gironda was the best thing since sliced bread, I don’t know, I haven’t bothered to read his stuff. However, all of the information on this list is either obvious or wrong. I don’t think there’s anything to be gained by reading it unless you have very little knowledge of weightlifting.

First of all, he was talking about bodybuilding, not weightlifting.

How about some specifics of this wrongness? Why don’t you, and hueyOT, “illuminate us” with some of your expertise?

I’m not saying you’re mistaken. I just have a problem with people that say “oh that list is all wrong” or “that list is 99% crap” w/o offering examples. So please, illuminate away…[/quote]

have as much of a problem as you want. that list is garbage. and i’m not about to spend my time picking through that list to satisfy your urges for an internet debate.

it’s not up to me to disprove an assertion when zero evidence has been provided supporting said assertion. all that was provided was a list. and a BIG list, at that. regardless, any evidence that WOULD be shared to support most of that dumb list wouldn’t be real evidence, anyways. just some made-up pseudo-scientific reasoning.

just for fun, let’s go through just a handful of this obvious bullshit:

  1. training over 45 minutes constitutes overtraining. do i really need to spell out how stupid this is?

  2. working upper body and legs on the same day is a mistake? are you kidding me? there are countless routines out there, properly designed, which involve upper body and lower body exercises in the same workout/training day.

  3. presses for deltoids… huh?

seriously, do i really have to go on? it’s a stupid list which contributes NOTHING to anybody’s understanding of training and nutrition. i can make up a stupid list, too. doesn’t mean it’s accurate.