Today's Article "High Rep Deadlifts are Dead"

I’ve came close a few times. I’ve had some semi serious head injuries and my brain doesn’t seem to like the strain/pressure sometimes.

The hardest part for me is breaking it off the floor usually. If I can move it 1” I can lock it out.

I really like the sound of that and it does indeed sound brutal!! Would you do that for more than one set!? I feel like I’d be dead after the first.
When utilizing that style of deadlifting what type of weight would you use? Or is it more of a rep range you’d want to stay in?

Oh yeah: that’s what lifting is, haha. Reference my moonwalk in the opening post.

That rest pause deadlift was the only workset for the deadlift that day. Similar to the opening video I posted. My most successful deadlift and squat training has hinged of working up to a single topset. Never found much value in sets across, unless it was for supplemental work or a hypertrophy phase (because despite what the article says, Deep Water’s 10x10 deadlift will definitely make you big and strong).

I used that deadlifting approach with ROM progression deads. I’d start with a weight I could do for 12+ reps on the first pull and work to the floor over 6 weeks. The video you see in the opening post is an example of the set done at the end of the cycle.

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I’m not really tracking this bit. Specifically the “work to the floor over 6 weeks”?

First pull means the first set of touch and gos before setting the bar down to rest pause. I’ll hit like 18+ reps total that day, but on the first go I’d get 12 before needing to rest pause.

Working to the floor is ROM progression. I take 6 3/4 rubber patio tiles and stack them under the plates. I use the deadlift protocol described above. The next week, I use 5 tiles and do that. I continue until I get to 2 mats. After doing the 2 mat, I jump straight to the floor for the 6th week of the cycle. I then deload on the 7th week and repeat the process with heavier weight.

So you would start with a weight you couldn’t pull from the floor but can pull from your elevated surface?

I can definitely pull the weight from the floor: just not for as many reps as I could from the elevated surface. It’s why I keep the reps so high. If you start with a weight that is too heavy, I find it unsustainable as you increase the ROM. Past the first cycle, I tend to observe rep drop offs, so a weight I may start with 10 reps on the initial pull might end up with 8 reps by the time I get to the floor.

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Makes sense! Thanks for taking the time to walk my simple mind through it!

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No problem dude: always happy to discuss.

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One more question if I may, how many reps are you getting on a single breath? Does that number change if you are NOT doing touch and go style?

I think I got the first 12 reps of that set of 15 in one breath. It’ll go down as weight gets heavier, because time is a big factor. I can only hold my breath for so long, and if the reps are moving slower, I can’t hold it for as many reps.

I pretty rarely pull deadstop reps for main work, but when I do, it’s a mixed bag. If I can reset fast enough I’ll keep my breath held, but if the bar drifts from the eccentric, I’ll rebreathe and rebrace before I make the next rep.

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Woah. That’s intense dude. Like, wow.

It definitely doesn’t feel good, haha.

Gotta step up my breathe holding/bracing abilities. I watched Brian Alsruhe’s YT video on it and I’ve been doing this wrong for years. Sick set dude! I used to do CrossFit rep ranges 21-15-9 for dead’s years ago before I switched over to lower heavier weights, definitely built my foundation with high rep deads and I’m not dead!

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Minor league games are professional baseball games, my man. As glorious or prestigious? Definitely not. But I did get ejected from more professional baseball games (1) than Derek Jeter, so that’s one of my claims to fame.

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Yeah, I was referring to the masses. Obviously, strongman comps are a completely different story. But what percentage of readers are actually competing? Probably not that many.

Spot on with the second point. I work mostly with athletes, so I go lower-ish reps on most compound lifts since that ensures technique is dialed in. From a physical as well as a psychological standpoint, most athletes lose focus or break down if we go high rep on most lifts.

I don’t think axial loading is bad at all. Like you said, it can result in great adaptations. That being said, I was just referring to the fact that it is definitely a CNS stressor.

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I wrote this article and I just spent way too much time reading this whole thread :joy:So, a lot to unpack here. Here we go.

About me: do I really look like that much of a weenie in my picture? Now you’re making me all insecure and thinking I’ll have to switch it out :joy:Regardless, yeah, I’m not that much of a scrawny internet writer. Not a powerlifter or elite bodybuilder by any means, sure. But I’m 6’2, 215ish lbs. 565 DL, 455 squat, 345 bench (did I just say my best lifts on the internet? Shoot me). I’m not “elite” by any means, but I’d say that’s respectable for someone who trains with general goals (muscle, athletic performance, feel-good). You can get a full view if you’re that into it by checking out some of my other articles with vids, but regardless, I’m not a total weasel here :joy: Either way, that’s one of my pet peeves with some of the massive dudes in the gym. I coach this one powerlifter who looks like Hercules himself, but he has no idea what he’s doing and he admits it, hah. Lot of big dudes out there who still don’t know all that much about training.

About the baseball situation: yeah, minor leaguers definitely play in games. They don’t sit on the sidelines like someone else said here :joy:It’s not like the NFL practice squad (although those guys make more than minor leaguers). Every player who’s drafted by a team - whether they’re a first rounder or 20th rounder - starts in the minor leagues for 2-3 years. I was drafted in 2016 and played that summer, and I actually did pretty well (I was the only first basemen selected to the All-Star team out of 14 teams and led the league in RBIs - yeah, I’m tooting my own horn here :joy:). But I actually voluntarily retired, I didn’t get cut. Yes, I had a signing bonus and yes, I made money, which is the definition of a professional athlete, but I wanted to move on to the next stage in my life. If I wanted to stick it out and keep playing, I could have. Check my MiLB bio - under status it says “voluntarily retired.”

In regards to the article, a few general points:
-The tough part with articles like these (and this was no surprise to me, trust me) is that they’re for the masses. There are always exceptions to the “rule” here and N=1 cases. I’m speaking broadly in this article. Someone commented saying, “Tell that to Eddie Hall,” and I’m like dude, I get what you’re saying, but there aren’t many Eddie Halls out there. BUT, there are millions of gym bros out there doing high rep sets of conventional deads that give me a herniated disk just by watching. T3hPwnisher, I’m not sure if you coach athletes or train others, but if you do, you know that 95% of individuals are NOT like us. You can pull high-rep deads without a problem, I can do high-rep deads without a problem, and we can both obviously reap huge benefits from doing so without crushing ourselves. But that 95%? Absolutely no shot. I train a lot of elite athletes who can hardly pull one good deadlift off the ground no matter what I tell them, whether it’s due to anatomical disadvantages, weak links elsewhere, or whatever else the case might be. It’s easy to say go for it when we’re talking about ourselves or our lifting buddies, but that’s hardly ever the case. When you see regular dudes deadlifting in any public gym, I’m sure you understand. Are high-rep deadlifts inherently bad? Not at all. Are high-rep deadlifts bad for most people in the gym who can’t pull one clean rep off, let alone 10? For sure. Trap bar deadlifts are a lot safer bet for most individuals in that case. But again, high-rep deads AREN’T inherently bad.

-Going beyond that, EVERYTHING in the gym should be looked at from a risk vs. reward perspective. If you’re a strongman, you obviously have to pull high-rep deads. If you’re not, you have to ask - is this the best way to accomplish X goal (muscle, fat loss, strength, etc.) while absolutely minimizing my risk of injury - acute and/or chronic? If the risk-reward ratio is poor, then I tell people to proceed with caution. Especially as a coach of athletes who need to be healthy to perform first and foremost, my #1 job is to keep them healthy IN the gym, and my #2 job is to give them the best chance of staying healthy when they perform. If there’s a better way for me to build up their strength or work capacity or whatever we’re going for without as much risk, I’m obviously going to take that lower hanging fruit. If you were dealing with a $100 million football player, are you going to do anything that will put them at even 1% risk of getting hurt? You have to be especially careful with guys like that. The same thing translates to regular gym-goers. Again, I’m not talking about situations like yours. But if you get hurt while training, nothing else matters. Most people need to prioritize modalities that have maximize trainability while minimizing injury risk both short- and long-term. And, like I said, sure, you and I can do high-rep deads without a problem. That’s not my point. My point is that most people can’t, hence the article.

-Axial loading is definitely not a bad thing? Nor did I say it was? But there’s no denying that it’s a big CNS stressor. Combine that with bad form (which, again, will happen when most people scale up the reps) and things can get ugly pretty quickly. I don’t want to give advice that makes someone wind up on a couch eating cheetos and skipping out on work for a week. That’d mean I’m failing on my sole goal as a coach.

-There are a lot of great coaches who also bash high-rep deads for the general population. Again, and I’m sounding like a broken record, they’re saying that for people who are not like you. People who aren’t strongmen or people who are a heck of a lot weaker. You obviously have plenty of experience deadlifting, and if you’re saying that you’re a ton stronger than most dudes (which I’m agreeing with), you’re also saying that most dudes are not like you… Which is the population I’m talking to here. John Rusin, Mike Boyle, Tony Gentilcore, Eric Cressey, Jay Ferruggia (AKA, some of the most decorated strength coaches in our industry) aren’t fans of high-rep deadlifts. Doesn’t that say something? Again, these guys could probably do high-rep deads themselves, but they’re speaking as a general rule of thumb… As I am here.

There are probably some other things that I was thinking of that I forgot to mention as I’ve just puked out a ton of words that could constitute an article in and of itself, but let me know if you disagree with any of those points and I’m happy to share my thoughts. I’m not much of an internet tough guy so I’m receptive to your opinion and will consider what you have to say. You’re obviously an experienced lifter so all power to you there.

But if I had to sum up my take: MOST (not all) people can’t do high-rep deads with good form, let alone for high reps. Is there a time and place for people who compete in Crossfit or strongman comps? Absolutely. And for people who can do so well? Go for it. But that’s not who I’m talking to here, and that’s a small percentage.

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That’s a fantastic claim to fame indeed. Reminds me of Kirk Karowski failing with more weight than Ed Coan failed with, haha.

Nah, like I said: it was super tongue in cheek at that point. Pretty much the whole opening post was over the top.

Nah. Not for me. I don’t have the patience.

I do find the issue about articles being for gen pop on t-nation is that t-nation tends to appear to be about NOT being for gen pop. “Intelligent/relentless pursuit of muscle” and then other such taglines that made it out to be that they were for the OTHER crowd. I’m big on saying that people don’t need to deadlift at all, full stop, unless their goals require that they do.

Appreciate you replying to the topic. We used to have live spills, which allowed this exact sort of interaction and clarification, but this is the first time I’ve made one of these posts and the article author replied.

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It’s all good. I’m with you on the gen pop thing being irrelevant for the most part for T-Nation, and I agree. Obviously, T-Nation readers are a different breed. Still, I think that the vast majority of guys will still have the tendency to break down if they jack up the reps on deads here. Honestly, I think the same idea could apply to a back squat (if the low back becomes the limiting factor) or a military press. Military press might be the most obvious example as guys will go into crazy lumbar extension to get the weight up. At that point it’s a lower back exercise, not a shoulder exercise hah. BUT, again, that’s kind of a necessary thing during strongman comps.

But I digress. We obviously both have our different lenses since I coach and see a lot of sloppy technique on a regular basis, whereas you’re involved in the strongman world where guys are obviously on a different level than most athletes and regular meatheads. My point is that one viewpoint isn’t necessarily worse than the other; my point is that they’re different, hence the differing perspectives. It’s like what you said about deadlift form in response to my “laundry list of cues” comment. You said something like “it’s simple, just hinge at the hips.” I agree - it is simple. But as a coach, even of elite athletes, it’s not that easy to teach. If it were, my life would be a lot easier, hah. I started working with a guy who was already deadlifting 500 lbs. and when I saw it for the first time, it was not pretty. He was literally squatting his deadlifts and didn’t understand the concept of a hinge. A few quick corrections and he was up 50 lbs.

This is the downside with articles because there are always exceptions to the general rules of thumb. It’s the classic “seek first to understand” philosophy because there are certain articles I’ve read on here that make me scratch my head, but then I realize that if I talked to the author in person, they’d probably have a good explanation for it that I’d agree with. People have asked me what I think about that quarter-squat Lebron James video and my response is always the same: I have no idea what’s going on behind the scenes and I know nothing about his training. His coach is probably top notch, and I’m sure (at least I hope) that there’s a good reason for it.

Going further, there are always situations where an exercise or certain modality is appropriate. For example, Mike Boyle always talks about how he hates the leg extension machine but that it would be a great exercise for “a one-legged man in an ass-kicking contest.” His point is that there are always exceptions and plenty of gray area in regards to a number of exercises and/or topics.

Thanks for sharing your thoughts, always appreciate good discussion!

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With the low back being a problem and limiting factor for many people, what would you recommend to strengthen it?

High rep deadlifts. :joy:

Appreciate your responses, @Charley_Gould. It’s always nice to see thoughtful discussions from coaches.

This reminded me of Lee Boyce’s perspective. Are you guys friends?

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