[quote]Scott M wrote:
IgneLudo wrote:
Why is mixed grip a particular problem with heavy rack pulls/deadlifts?
One little mistake with the “under” grip arm position and you can book a surgery consult for your torn biceps.
For bodybuilding purposes a double overhand grip with straps is a much safer alternative. [/quote]
I second this.
Professor where did you see Dave claim no direct biceps work?
For his training program that second higher rep preacher curl he was doing is the training program he follows way of attacking weak bodyparts. He knows it’s an issue and is doing his best to bring it up although it will likely never match those triceps.
I think the same could be said for shrugs as do dead lifts doing a fine job all by themselves(if you are doing them). You choose not to dead lift therefore shrugs are necessary for you, I dead lift(well rack dead) and therefore I find shrugs not necessary for me.
In the end for me whichever one someone can use for more weight in good form is going to build the bigger traps.(or just use both and have all your bases covered if unsure). My issue was the one poster saying what IDIOT relies on dead lifts for trap development.
[quote]Bricknyce wrote:
I also think a hook grip feels much better than cotton straps digging into your wrists. When I first used it, it hurt my thumbs like crazy. But now I am totally used to it. [/quote]
I had that problem too but I recently purchased wrist straps made by Schiek, problem solved.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Professor where did you see Dave claim no direct biceps work?
For his training program that second higher rep preacher curl he was doing is the training program he follows way of attacking weak bodyparts. He knows it’s an issue and is doing his best to bring it up although it will likely never match those triceps.
I think the same could be said for shrugs as do dead lifts doing a fine job all by themselves(if you are doing them). You choose not to dead lift therefore shrugs are necessary for you, I dead lift(well rack dead) and therefore I find shrugs not necessary for me.
In the end for me whichever one someone can use for more weight in good form is going to build the bigger traps.(or just use both and have all your bases covered if unsure). My issue was the one poster saying what IDIOT relies on dead lifts for trap development. [/quote]
He has followed Doggcrap for years now and he has spoken of his training on another website (when I find the link, I’ll post it). He may have JUST added them back in (because his biceps have been his weak point for years making avoiding training them senseless), but there is no doubt that he did not train them directly for years.
We now see how well that worked out for him.
As far as deadlifts and traps, why would anyone in their right mind rely only on deadlifts for trap development?
Johnnie Jackson does shrugs. Just because he is great at deadlifting, it is a mistake to assume his traps look like that JUST because of deadlifts.
I am really wondering how big the traps are of the people in this thread.
I’d be interested to see the link if you find it(Muscle mayhem by chance?) because that doesn’t sound right to me.
My point about dead lifts and trap development was almost everyone does shrugs but the guys who routinely have the biggest traps are also great dead lifters so to discount the role of dead lifting in trap development is doing them an injustice.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
I’d be interested to see the link if you find it(Muscle mayhem by chance?) because that doesn’t sound right to me.
My point about dead lifts and trap development was almost everyone does shrugs but the guys who routinely have the biggest traps are also great dead lifters so to discount the role of dead lifting in trap development is doing them an injustice.
[/quote]
It is Muscle Mayhem and you should be able to find it on your own. I don’t intend to go search another website just to prove that to you. The man did not train biceps directly for years. Whether he is NOW is another matter all together.
The only post I found from Dave saying he didn’t train a specific bodypart was from January 04 saying he didn’t do direct forearm work.
And since he started DC in the middle of 04 he has since been doing forearms.
All posts that had the words bicep/biceps, arm/arm, curl/curls showed no results for not training biceps directly. He also mentioned the manner in which he trained them previous to DC so unless it was before he turned pro I think you mistook his forearm post for biceps.
[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
I find that the straps don’t really help because they just thicken the bar, making it even more difficult to hold on. Am I just not using them correctly? [/quote]
You’re not using them correctly. And I’ve sat here for a couple minutes trying to describe the right way in writing, but have failed miserably. Everything I tried typing sounded retarded.
But I can say this. Make sure the straps are very tight.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
The only post I found from Dave saying he didn’t train a specific bodypart was from January 04 saying he didn’t do direct forearm work.
And since he started DC in the middle of 04 he has since been doing forearms.
All posts that had the words bicep/biceps, arm/arm, curl/curls showed no results for not training biceps directly. He also mentioned the manner in which he trained them previous to DC so unless it was before he turned pro I think you mistook his forearm post for biceps. [/quote]
I didn’t. You can believe what you want. If I run across the posts again, I will post them here. I won’t, however, waste my time searching that website for this issue.
It seems to me that you’ll build your upper traps very well with shrugs, face pulls, etc, but that DLs will work to build the lower traps also b/c they are used to stabilize the scapulae when pulling from the floor.
Shrugs may well be a better trap development exercise in terms of building the yoke, but it seems like you’d still need to do a lot for the lower fibers to balance out the part of the muscle that pins the scapula to the spine.
[quote]PRCalDude wrote:
It seems to me that you’ll build your upper traps very well with shrugs, face pulls, etc, but that DLs will work to build the lower traps also b/c they are used to stabilize the scapulae when pulling from the floor.
Shrugs may well be a better trap development exercise in terms of building the yoke, but it seems like you’d still need to do a lot for the lower fibers to balance out the part of the muscle that pins the scapula to the spine. [/quote]
Yes…that is what T-Bar rows are for.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Scott M wrote:
I’d be interested to see the link if you find it(Muscle mayhem by chance?) because that doesn’t sound right to me.
My point about dead lifts and trap development was almost everyone does shrugs but the guys who routinely have the biggest traps are also great dead lifters so to discount the role of dead lifting in trap development is doing them an injustice.
It is Muscle Mayhem and you should be able to find it on your own. I don’t intend to go search another website just to prove that to you. The man did not train biceps directly for years. Whether he is NOW is another matter all together.[/quote]
That’s interesting. Do you remember if this was before he started doing DC, or while he was doing it? Because the basic template has you directly training biceps every other workout. And seeing as how Dante and Scott Stevenson trained him personally I find it hard to believe that he wasn’t following the program.
But, hey maybe he wasn’t as I haven’t read the thread that you are quoting. I’ll see if I can find it and post it.
I did find a post by Dante from 5/16/07 in which he stated that Dave was doing several direct biceps exercises. I don’t know, I’ll try to find that thread that you (X) are referring to.
[quote]LankyMofo wrote:
IgneLudo wrote:
I find that the straps don’t really help because they just thicken the bar, making it even more difficult to hold on. Am I just not using them correctly?
You’re not using them correctly. And I’ve sat here for a couple minutes trying to describe the right way in writing, but have failed miserably. Everything I tried typing sounded retarded.
But I can say this. Make sure the straps are very tight.[/quote]
I’ll have to try again. I’ll post if I fail again.
Love deads. Do them regularly. As Prof X mentioned, shrugs are superb for traps. Deads may not be necessary but i do love them.
[quote]Qaash wrote:
Bricknyce wrote:
I also think a hook grip feels much better than cotton straps digging into your wrists. When I first used it, it hurt my thumbs like crazy. But now I am totally used to it.
I had that problem too but I recently purchased wrist straps made by Schiek, problem solved.[/quote]
No doubt. Those are pretty good straps. I used to have a pair. Now I am just hooked on the hook grip. No pun intended! 
I am in agreement with PX.
I mean, how do we know how much one exercise contributes to someone’s growth of a specific bodypart? We can’t.
I think pullups and chinups are great biceps builders. I have some soreness and stiffness in my bis the day after doing them. However, I do still train arms directly. I have even had some tricep stiffness and soreness from performing my chest workout.
But there is no way I am going into the CW line of thinking that we have to forgo direct training of smaller bodyparts because they are involved in compound exercises.
Everyone arguing for Deads seems to be missing the strongest argument for including them in one’s program.
Even if you don’t think Deadlifts are DIRECTLY responsible for big mass gains, then look at it this way…
(4) Deadlifting is a good idea for those
interested in building big muscles.
Strength is obviously a big limiting factor in getting the most out of a training session.
Who is going to get more gains out a set of T-Bar Rows? Someone who can Deadlift 350 or someone who can Deadlift 700? My money is on the stronger lifter.
Yes, if you’re doing Barbell Rows with 275 and Push Press with 185, you can in all likelihood continue to push those numbers up without training the Deadlift.
But by not training the Deadlift, let me pander to your fears and warn you that you are probably missing out on the maximal amount of muscle growth you can get out of these exercises.
Perhaps in the shape you’re in now you can only pull 350X3. But if you had a body that could pull 455X10 you’d be able to inflict more damage on your shoulders and back by doing heavier Rows and Push-Presses.
Finally, why do Athletes, Olympic Lifters, and Bodybuilders deadlift if they aren’t being judged on their Deadlift? Because the Deadlift is arguably the most efficient way to build pure strength.
If you’re someone who doesn’t train the Deadlift, then it may take you a year to add 50 pounds to your Bent-Over Row. The Hip, Spinal Erector, Hamstring, and Abdominal Strength necessary to add 50 pounds to this lift will need to develop as a side effect of doing this Lat Exercise.
However, if you do train the Deadlift, then that extra 50 pounds on your rows may be achievable in something like 3 months.
If you can do an Overhead, 1-Arm Dumbbell Extension with 5 pounds, which path will get you to a 25 pound overhead 1-arm extension faster?
(1) Just do more 1-Arm Extensions.
(2) Get a Shit-Ton Stronger in your Bench
Press. Maybe do some overhead extensions
after you bench if you feel like it.
Likewise, I think if you can Shrug 275, you’ll get to shrugging 675 faster by Training both Shrugs and Deadlifts than you will by training Shrugs alone.
I suppose it’s possible to build a good physique without Deadlifting, but I don’t see why you’d try to. The Deadlift is just such an incredibly effective tool. Why would you train without it?
People who get away with training the Deadlift, In my Humble Opinion are some combination of:
(1) Genetic Freaks who can make huge gains in lean mass by smelling food and lifting 40lb Dumbbells
(2) Injured
(3) Scared
(4) Missing out
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Majin wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
I’d bet that David Henry does rack pulls,
He did a machine type rack pull in the Olympia training video and also this cool row which I plan on trying sometime.
http://webcast.bodybuilding.com/fitshow/2008olympia/oseries/2008oseries9.htm
Dave was doing a hammer strength row in that video… he’s 2 weeks out from the Olympia and pulling 600+ lbs for reps on a partial dead lift motion that depleted wouldn’t be that smart. You can bet he does them in the offseason however.
For that exercise you high lighted try it out with the “V” handle people use for close grip pulldowns and a slight pause in the stretch position. [/quote]
We’ve got at least 5 different ones I want to try.
PX,
I looked through all of Dante’s posts with the words “Dave (and/or) Henry” in them (both at IM and MM) and in none of them does he say that Dave doesn’t/didn’t do biceps since he’s been on DC.
I also looked through all of Dave Henry’s posts with the words (biceps and arms) at MM and again no luck.
Are you sure that it was DH, and that it was at MM?
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
PX,
I looked through all of Dante’s posts with the words “Dave (and/or) Henry” in them (both at IM and MM) and in none of them does he say that Dave doesn’t/didn’t do biceps since he’s been on DC.
I also looked through all of Dave Henry’s posts with the words (biceps and arms) at MM and again no luck.
Are you sure that it was DH, and that it was at MM?[/quote]
If you go to BB.com you can see the Pre-Olympia Training of David Henry, among others. One thing that stood out to me in the video was him doing strict EZ Bar curls with 2 25s per side. This is at about 10 days before the Olympia.
Here’s his trailer for his training DVD
Looks like he’s doing Seated Curls with about 90 pounds. The Man Likes his curls.
He’s also got like 6 plates per side on the Hammer Incline Machine. That’s pretty hard.