Nope, do powerlifters have a lack of trap size either?
[quote]Scott M wrote:
The first part I agree, dead lifts are without a doubt a phenomenal back builder but this…
ab_power wrote:
What idiot tries to build up their traps by deadlifting? Even powerlifters like Wendler say they got big shrugs by doing… direct shrug work.
Which guys consistently have the biggest thickest traps? The guys with powerlifting backgrounds(ie big dead lifters)…
Now if they all do shrugs, but only a few of them get 700+ lb dead lifts and those that do those dead lifts routinely have the best traps on stage could we venture to say that dead lifts are a good trap builder(especially when combined with shrugs if someone chooses)?
Dave Henry is a guy who hasn’t done a shrug or rear delt specific move in 3-4 years and I don’t think any judges are going to pick apart his upper back thickness anytime soon. Rack deads and heavy ass rows built that back. [/quote]
I meant that they should be used in combination. And that someone wanting to build up their traps to their best potential can’t just rely on conventional deadlifts.
Also, to say that Dave Henry hasn’t done a shrugging exercise in 3-4 is a little naive. Does he have 4 years of training logs posted or has he said this in an interview?
So to rephrase that “what kind of idiot relies on ONLY deadlifts to build their traps?”
[quote]ab_power wrote:
Also, to say that Dave Henry hasn’t done a shrugging exercise in 3-4 is a little naive. Does he have 4 years of training logs posted or has he said this in an interview?
So to rephrase that “what kind of idiot relies on ONLY deadlifts to build their traps?”
[/quote]
That would be because Dante Trudel and Scott Stevenson have trained him for the past 3-4 years and have said that he does not do Shrugs.
Here is Zane doing a rack pull.
I didn’t think BBers did/do them a lot, but I know many BBers do RDLs/SLDLs and heavy bent over rows. Those pulling motions are pretty close to the stress rack pulls would put on back muscles, so it makes sense that it wouldn’t hurt to not do rack pulls as a BBer.
[quote]ab_power wrote:
You guys are kidding yourselves. Guys like Dave Gulledge built their mind-blowing spinal erectors using smith machine rows and back hyperextensions with a 45-pound plate.
Then theres Ronnie, who won olympia a few times and is able to deadlift 800lbs for a couple reps. Obviously they are superior for building overall thickness in the erectors and lower back, as well as in the hamstrings.
As for working traps, common sense and like 50 years of knowledge point towards DB or BB shrugs. It sounds like on this thread that there are people who are arguing against the use of shrugs and praising olympic lifts for some reason.
What idiot tries to build up their traps by deadlifting? Even powerlifters like Wendler say they got big shrugs by doing… direct shrug work.
[/quote]
I don’t think anyone is arguing that shrugs build the traps and back hyperextensions build the erectors. But, you don’t think the fact that Gulledge was a powerlifter or the fact that he pulled 800 lbs had nothing to do with his erector development?
Or how about the fact that the best backs in BB’ing (and not just erectors) have belonged to big proponents of DL’ing (Columbo, Coleman, Jackson, Yates, Oliva though I’m sure his olympic lifting background didn’t hurt him, etc…).
If you can’t deadlift much, I could understand why you don’t think they work the traps well. But get your weight up (or do top half partials/rack deads to really overload) and you’ll see that they absolutely work the traps damn hard.
Get 600 lbs on the bar and do it for reps (4+) and tell me that your traps weren’t screaming trying to keep your shoulders from tearing out of their sockets.
Strong men competitors and powerlifters don’t generally have bad traps, and most of their stimulus comes from isometric trap work (farmer’s walks, DL’s, Hercules Hold, etc…).
I don’t doubt that many of them do shrug as well, but to suggest that DL’s and other isometric trap work doesn’t contribute just isn’t the case IMO.
Again, not saying that you must DL to build a great back, clearly there have been people who haven’t done them (Dexter, Ben White, Prof X, that wheel chair guy), and there are legitimate reasons for stopping doing them as the weight gets up there.
But to suggest that using them to build the traps/back is idiotic is…well, idiotic. 
Mike Francois used to do heavy sumo rack pulls. In fact, he’s the first person I ever saw do them.
About halfway through this video he’s doing regular rack pulls:
[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Flow wrote:
Scott M wrote:
The first part I agree, dead lifts are without a doubt a phenomenal back builder but this…
ab_power wrote:
What idiot tries to build up their traps by deadlifting? Even powerlifters like Wendler say they got big shrugs by doing… direct shrug work.
Which guys consistently have the biggest thickest traps? The guys with powerlifting backgrounds(ie big dead lifters)…
Now if they all do shrugs, but only a few of them get 700+ lb dead lifts and those that do those dead lifts routinely have the best traps on stage could we venture to say that dead lifts are a good trap builder(especially when combined with shrugs if someone chooses)?
Dave Henry is a guy who hasn’t done a shrug or rear delt specific move in 3-4 years and I don’t think any judges are going to pick apart his upper back thickness anytime soon. Rack deads and heavy ass rows built that back.
Hey Scott M, do BBers do rack pulls any different than powerlifters?
Do Bodybuilders DO rack pulls?
I bet there aren’t any IFBB Pros who are doing Sumo Rack Pulls. Not that it has anything to do with the quality of the exercise. But I bet I’m right.[/quote]
I’d bet that David Henry does rack pulls, I’d also bet that Justin Harris, and Steve Kuclo do them at times as well. And I know for a fact that Jason Wojo and Franco Datillo both do them regularly.
Of those, only Henry is an IFBB pro, but he’s also known for having one of the best backs of any current pro.
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
ab_power wrote:
You guys are kidding yourselves. Guys like Dave Gulledge built their mind-blowing spinal erectors using smith machine rows and back hyperextensions with a 45-pound plate.
Then theres Ronnie, who won olympia a few times and is able to deadlift 800lbs for a couple reps. Obviously they are superior for building overall thickness in the erectors and lower back, as well as in the hamstrings.
As for working traps, common sense and like 50 years of knowledge point towards DB or BB shrugs. It sounds like on this thread that there are people who are arguing against the use of shrugs and praising olympic lifts for some reason.
What idiot tries to build up their traps by deadlifting? Even powerlifters like Wendler say they got big shrugs by doing… direct shrug work.
I don’t think anyone is arguing that shrugs build the traps and back hyperextensions build the erectors. But, you don’t think the fact that Gulledge was a powerlifter or the fact that he pulled 800 lbs had nothing to do with his erector development?
Or how about the fact that the best backs in BB’ing (and not just erectors) have belonged to big proponents of DL’ing (Columbo, Coleman, Jackson, Yates, Oliva though I’m sure his olympic lifting background didn’t hurt him, etc…).
If you can’t deadlift much, I could understand why you don’t think they work the traps well. But get your weight up (or do top half partials/rack deads to really overload) and you’ll see that they absolutely work the traps damn hard.
Get 600 lbs on the bar and do it for reps (4+) and tell me that your traps weren’t screaming trying to keep your shoulders from tearing out of their sockets.
Strong men competitors and powerlifters don’t generally have bad traps, and most of their stimulus comes from isometric trap work (farmer’s walks, DL’s, Hercules Hold, etc…).
I don’t doubt that many of them do shrug as well, but to suggest that DL’s and other isometric trap work doesn’t contribute just isn’t the case IMO.
Again, not saying that you must DL to build a great back, clearly there have been people who haven’t done them (Dexter, Ben White, Prof X, that wheel chair guy), and there are legitimate reasons for stopping doing them as the weight gets up there.
But to suggest that using them to build the traps/back is idiotic is…well, idiotic. [/quote]
I’m not arguing against doing deadlifts. I just don’t get the idea of relying on only deadlifts to build your traps and totally neglecting shrugs. It’s like relying on pullups to build your arms and neglecting curls.
And I didn’t say that isometric trap work from deadlifts doesn’t build up traps, instead I think that by not doing direct work such as shrugs you can be limiting growth. If you are a powerlifter it doesn’t matter what your shrugs look like, but for bodybuilding, why not use all the tools available to you.
Deadlifts!
Why is mixed grip a particular problem with heavy rack pulls/deadlifts?
[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
I’d bet that David Henry does rack pulls,[/quote]
He did a machine type rack pull in the Olympia training video and also this cool row which I plan on trying sometime.
http://webcast.bodybuilding.com/fitshow/2008olympia/oseries/2008oseries9.htm
Either way, I just fucking love to do them.
I’m dealing with back problems right now so I can’t in this training phase though. Sucks because before I decided to pull them out of my routine I had hit 500x2.
Maybe I’m reaching my threshhold?
Real men deadlift. HAH!
I have them in some routines, but not a lot of the time because I find they are too taxing. I can’t recover from them fast enough and because they are such a full body exercise this stops me from training soon after.
[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
Why is mixed grip a particular problem with heavy rack pulls/deadlifts? [/quote]
One little mistake with the “under” grip arm position and you can book a surgery consult for your torn biceps.
For bodybuilding purposes a double overhand grip with straps is a much safer alternative.
I find that the straps don’t really help because they just thicken the bar, making it even more difficult to hold on. Am I just not using them correctly?
[quote]Scott M wrote:
IgneLudo wrote:
Why is mixed grip a particular problem with heavy rack pulls/deadlifts?
One little mistake with the “under” grip arm position and you can book a surgery consult for your torn biceps.
For bodybuilding purposes a double overhand grip with straps is a much safer alternative. [/quote]
A hook grip can actually work better than a mixed grip if you build up the grip strength over time.
I also think a hook grip feels much better than cotton straps digging into your wrists. When I first used it, it hurt my thumbs like crazy. But now I am totally used to it.
[quote]Majin wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
I’d bet that David Henry does rack pulls,
He did a machine type rack pull in the Olympia training video and also this cool row which I plan on trying sometime.
http://webcast.bodybuilding.com/fitshow/2008olympia/oseries/2008oseries9.htm[/quote]
[/quote]
Dave was doing a hammer strength row in that video… he’s 2 weeks out from the Olympia and pulling 600+ lbs for reps on a partial dead lift motion that depleted wouldn’t be that smart. You can bet he does them in the offseason however.
For that exercise you high lighted try it out with the “V” handle people use for close grip pulldowns and a slight pause in the stretch position.
[quote]Scott M wrote:
Majin wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
I’d bet that David Henry does rack pulls,
He did a machine type rack pull in the Olympia training video and also this cool row which I plan on trying sometime.
http://webcast.bodybuilding.com/fitshow/2008olympia/oseries/2008oseries9.htm
Dave was doing a hammer strength row in that video… he’s 2 weeks out from the Olympia and pulling 600+ lbs for reps that depleted wouldn’t be that smart. You can bet he does them in the offseason however.
For that exercise you high lighted try it out with the “V” handle people use for close grip pulldowns and a slight pause in the stretch position. [/quote]
I like David Henry, but the man also claims no direct biceps work when that is clearly his GLARING weak point on stage.
I think deadlifts are great.
I do NOT think they are necessary for great development. Ben White does not do deadlifts and he quite possibly has one of the best backs coming into the pro ranks right now.
I think deadlifts are great.
I do NOT think I need to do them to see greater trap development than most of the people talking about how great deadlifts are. Shrugs do a fine job of that all by themselves.
In other words, if you want to do them, then do so, just quit this concept that they are needed. They are NOT.
[quote]IgneLudo wrote:
I find that the straps don’t really help because they just thicken the bar, making it even more difficult to hold on. Am I just not using them correctly? [/quote]
If I had to guess I would say they are not tight enough.
x2 for Prof X’s D. Henry and subsequent points.