To Deadlift or Not

Training Bodybuilding
21

[quote]jtg987 wrote:

imo its better for beginners to start with rack pulls so they can get a feel for what deadlifts will be like and the kind of form they need. [/quote]

You Pick the Bar off the floor.

I’m not going to debate if everyone should deadlift.

But if you can’t pick a bar up off the floor safely, should you really be lifting weights?

Seriously, if you lack the flexibility and body control to pull a 45lb bar and a 5kg practice plate on each side, then it’s probably in your best interests to work on your horrible flexibility first.

22

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
PRCalDude wrote:
How else do you build good traps without deadlifting? Seems to me that nothing beats pulling a lot of heavy weight and using your traps to stabilize the load for building up your traps.

Shrugs, face pulls and other types of rows, olympic lift variations, there are plenty of other exercises that build the traps. Now, whether or not the individual personally feels that they get better trap growth from the above exercises or from doing DL’s and DL variations is something that one has to figure out for yourself.

Personally I don’t see why you can’t do both. There seems to be a tendency of “either or” when usually a better answer is both. Just do the exercises that work best for YOU, let everyone else worry about what works best for them.

I’m not saying to not look around and observe what other successful people do, or not take the advice of people who have helped others build impressive physiques. But you’ve got to actually give things an honest shot before you can say for certain whether it’s for you.[/quote]

I actually do many of these exercises within my bodybuilding routine. I do not do standard deadlifts anymore. I do sumo deadlifts for my hamstrings and glutes.

The standard one has too much forward lean and has caused some problems for me - NO MATTER how much stretching, mobility stuff, and strengthening my glutes and hams I do. My erectors simply get too stiff from them. I have gone stetches where I did not do deadlifts of any sorts at all.

I find that my erectors get a lot of stimulation from squats anyway.

My back day is this:
Pulldowns
Dumbbell rows
Machine pullover
Cable rows
Rear delt raises

That’s a lot of trap exercise right there.

Then on shoulder day, its
Overhead press
Lateral raise
Machine lateral raise
Shrugs

Again, more trap exercise.

Then I do sumo deadlifts on leg day. How much do shrugs contribute. I don’t know. But I am agreeing with some here that I do not think they would be where they are at if not for deadlifts and the upper back exercises.

I think shrugs are like the icing on the cake, just like flies, lateral raises, leg extensions, pec deck, etc.

Also, if you are someone who actually knows how to bench (CORRECTLY) you’d see there is a lot of tension on the traps (isometric, that is).

23

Every benefit seen from the deadlift can be substituted with other movements VERY efficiently. I am not sure why anyone would rely on deadlifts alone for trap development. Heavy shrugs will build them up unlike any other movement.

24


Old, shitty pic of my upper back. Keep in mind this was three years ago. I need some new quality pics; damn it!

This was also when I was doing more powerlifting. I decided PL was not for me and since then have been bodybuilding. I am like 20# heavier now.

25

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Lorisco wrote:
300andabove wrote:
For traps alone rack deadlifts blow mine out of the water, deadlifts do everything else in the posterior chain :slight_smile:

Technically, except for traps (and arm involvement), back squats activate nearly the same muscle groups as deadlifts (glutes, hams, hip flexors, calves, suprasinaliss[lowerback], etc). I can stop doing deads for months, come back and still hit close to the same load because of back squats.

But not lats and upper back so much.[/quote]

That depends on your technique. However, IMO, lats are hit better by rows and chins.

26

[quote]jtg987 wrote:
at the moment I’ve been concentrating on rack pulls as opposed to deadlifts.

imo its better for beginners to start with rack pulls so they can get a feel for what deadlifts will be like and the kind of form they need. [/quote]

Dude, pull up your pants, sagging is sooo last year!

27

I do traditional deadlifts once every month. Shrugs build traps.

28

If narrow grip (very narrow) cable rows are done properly it’s almost entirely a rear delt/trap exercise, at least for me. Cleans are awesome for both calves and traps as well though. I usually deadlift once every couple of weeks in lieu of either back or leg day. Mostly because I enjoy it.

29

I have not seen a BB book distinguish between the three kinds of traps. According to some sources,deadlifts hit the upper traps,while rows (cable and barbell kinds) would address the lower and middle to some extent. Books may suggest one kind of shrug and deadlift.
What do you think about that?

Only olympic lifts or snatch grip deadlifts cause appreciable soreness for me. If I want to deadlift on a trap recovery day,then single leg dead combined with not helping with shoulder retraction will not affect them very much. Might be useful for someone looking for an isolation solution.

30

[quote]Lorisco wrote:
jtg987 wrote:
at the moment I’ve been concentrating on rack pulls as opposed to deadlifts.

imo its better for beginners to start with rack pulls so they can get a feel for what deadlifts will be like and the kind of form they need.

Dude, pull up your pants, sagging is sooo last year![/quote]

ha I would but since I’ve cut these have gone from comfortable/tight fit too pretty much fall down when i wear them

31

I used love deadlifting, but over the past few years, I seem to tweak my back when I do them.

It’s too much of a risk vs reward thing for me now.

My traps seem to respond fine to other back exercises.

32

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Personally I don’t see why you can’t do both.

Honestly, I think most people would agree it’s hard to fit Olympic Lifts into a Bodybuilding regime.[/quote]

The standard olympic lifts I agree, but things like power cleans, clean and press, or even something like high pulls are pretty easy to work into a BB’ing program.

33

I only make it as complicated as this…

The guys with the biggest thickest backs(Yates Coleman Pierre Fux J. Jackson Dave Henry etc etc) are very strong on both rows and or dead lifts variations.

Pick your poison(or do both).

For me I like rack deads just below the knee, t bar rows(Like Ronnie does them) reverse grip barbell rows and the HS DY row(reverse grip again).

34

You guys are kidding yourselves. Guys like Dave Gulledge built their mind-blowing spinal erectors using smith machine rows and back hyperextensions with a 45-pound plate.

Then theres Ronnie, who won olympia a few times and is able to deadlift 800lbs for a couple reps. Obviously they are superior for building overall thickness in the erectors and lower back, as well as in the hamstrings.

As for working traps, common sense and like 50 years of knowledge point towards DB or BB shrugs. It sounds like on this thread that there are people who are arguing against the use of shrugs and praising olympic lifts for some reason.

What idiot tries to build up their traps by deadlifting? Even powerlifters like Wendler say they got big shrugs by doing… direct shrug work.

35

[quote]Sentoguy wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Personally I don’t see why you can’t do both.

Honestly, I think most people would agree it’s hard to fit Olympic Lifts into a Bodybuilding regime.

The standard olympic lifts I agree, but things like power cleans, clean and press, or even something like high pulls are pretty easy to work into a BB’ing program.[/quote]

Besides the Press, how?

36

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Personally I don’t see why you can’t do both.

Honestly, I think most people would agree it’s hard to fit Olympic Lifts into a Bodybuilding regime.

The standard olympic lifts I agree, but things like power cleans, clean and press, or even something like high pulls are pretty easy to work into a BB’ing program.

Besides the Press, how? [/quote]

Are you being serious?

Ok, well you do them on back day, or shoulder day (depending on which variation you do, and the purpose for which you are doing the exercise). And you just do them how you would do any other exercise, not max effort single and triples, but higher rep sets.

Here’s Justin Harris clean and pressing 225 for reps (for illustration’s sake):

37

[quote]FightingScott wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:
FightingScott wrote:
Sentoguy wrote:

Personally I don’t see why you can’t do both.

Honestly, I think most people would agree it’s hard to fit Olympic Lifts into a Bodybuilding regime.

The standard olympic lifts I agree, but things like power cleans, clean and press, or even something like high pulls are pretty easy to work into a BB’ing program.

Besides the Press, how? [/quote]

I would typically do any of those three exercises as my first or second movement in my shoulder routine.

38

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The first part I agree, dead lifts are without a doubt a phenomenal back builder but this…

[quote]ab_power wrote:

What idiot tries to build up their traps by deadlifting? Even powerlifters like Wendler say they got big shrugs by doing… direct shrug work.
[/quote]

Which guys consistently have the biggest thickest traps? The guys with powerlifting backgrounds(ie big dead lifters)…

Now if they all do shrugs, but only a few of them get 700+ lb dead lifts and those that do those dead lifts routinely have the best traps on stage could we venture to say that dead lifts are a good trap builder(especially when combined with shrugs if someone chooses)?

Dave Henry is a guy who hasn’t done a shrug or rear delt specific move in 3-4 years and I don’t think any judges are going to pick apart his upper back thickness anytime soon. Rack deads and heavy ass rows built that back.

39

[quote]Scott M wrote:
The first part I agree, dead lifts are without a doubt a phenomenal back builder but this…

ab_power wrote:

What idiot tries to build up their traps by deadlifting? Even powerlifters like Wendler say they got big shrugs by doing… direct shrug work.

Which guys consistently have the biggest thickest traps? The guys with powerlifting backgrounds(ie big dead lifters)…

Now if they all do shrugs, but only a few of them get 700+ lb dead lifts and those that do those dead lifts routinely have the best traps on stage could we venture to say that dead lifts are a good trap builder(especially when combined with shrugs if someone chooses)?

Dave Henry is a guy who hasn’t done a shrug or rear delt specific move in 3-4 years and I don’t think any judges are going to pick apart his upper back thickness anytime soon. Rack deads and heavy ass rows built that back. [/quote]

Hey Scott M, do BBers do rack pulls any different than powerlifters?

40

[quote]Flow wrote:
Scott M wrote:
The first part I agree, dead lifts are without a doubt a phenomenal back builder but this…

ab_power wrote:

What idiot tries to build up their traps by deadlifting? Even powerlifters like Wendler say they got big shrugs by doing… direct shrug work.

Which guys consistently have the biggest thickest traps? The guys with powerlifting backgrounds(ie big dead lifters)…

Now if they all do shrugs, but only a few of them get 700+ lb dead lifts and those that do those dead lifts routinely have the best traps on stage could we venture to say that dead lifts are a good trap builder(especially when combined with shrugs if someone chooses)?

Dave Henry is a guy who hasn’t done a shrug or rear delt specific move in 3-4 years and I don’t think any judges are going to pick apart his upper back thickness anytime soon. Rack deads and heavy ass rows built that back.

Hey Scott M, do BBers do rack pulls any different than powerlifters? [/quote]

Do Bodybuilders DO rack pulls?

I bet there aren’t any IFBB Pros who are doing Sumo Rack Pulls. Not that it has anything to do with the quality of the exercise. But I bet I’m right.