[quote]Makavali wrote:
Tipping is considered insulting here with most professions. Most of NZ frowns upon elitism.[/quote]
There is nothing elitist about paying someone for a well done job. As a matter of fact the reason why service is so AWESOME in the US and SUCKS donkey balls every where else is precisely because of the almighty tip jar.
I bet you have no problem sliding a dollar into a strippers thong, you hypocrite.
[quote]malonetd wrote:
Synthetickiller wrote:
I totally disagree with tipping the pizza delivery boy. He gets his gas covered, makes at least 10 USD / hr and I have to tip his sorry ass? No sir. He did me no favors. Tips are given for favors, not for doing basic work.
I donāt know where youāre getting youāre numbers from. Maybe itās different in Louisiana. When I lived in California I delivered pizzas. I was paid state minimum wage(maybe slightly above, I donāt remember). I got 50 cants per delivery. Maybe that covers my gas, but not maintenance on my car for excess use and convenience for the customer to not get off their ass and get their own pizza.
Just random thoughts 
I agree with Mr. Pink. Get a law to increase wages, do something, but cut out this tipping BS. Its not MY job to ensure someone gets a proper paycheck, its the employer and the government. If we REALLY cared about peopleās wages in this country, weād stop voting in people who block increasing the minimum wage in this country.
I disagree. I like the idea of tipping. I like āpunishingā someone with a lower wage if they do a job poorly. And I really like rewarding a job well done. I donāt want to be forced to pay the same amount for service that is far from equal.
FINAL THOUGHT:
Maybe if you have a ārealā job, you donāt get tips? Thatās how I see it. Tips denote expendibility.
Thereās nothing wrong with these jobs. Someone has to do them. I would prefer someone that knows what theyāre doing and that likes their job to do them.
In fact, when I retire, I would love to be a barber. Since Iām not going to retire completely, because I think retiring is a silly and unnecessary luxury.[/quote]
Its interesting how its broken down. Hereās a help wanted at for a dominoās delivery boy position:
āSalary $12 to $15 per year + 5.15/hr base pay + $7-$10/hour in tips and mileageā
I think thereās a typo, maybe 12k - 15k? Considering what Iāve heard from people who did the job, they make a lot more than minimum when the day is done and arenāt hurting compared to working at fast food.
Honestly, I hate tipping, as Iāve stated before, BUT I tip 20% plus. I do this b/c I will get punished if I return and they remembered I tipped poorly. Iāve just heard too many stories about people spitting and doing other things in food as a result of a bad customer. Iād rather not have someone sneeze in my food b/c I didnāt tip well.
That doesnāt cover āgtatuityā though in your argument. If you end up going out to eat with a large group and the service sucks, youāre still stuck a forced tip of 15%-20% depending on the restaurant. No punishment thereā¦ Thatās not even a tip, thatās a service charge.
My point of saying these are not ārealā jobs, is that arguably (i donāt have statistics on this) the majority of people doing these jobs are high school and college students, more so, people with little education. They are easily replaced at any time by a large sea of applicants. Itās work, but nothing that requires massive amounts of intelligence by any stretch of the imagination.
Arguing that you want āsomeone who knows what they are doingā doesnāt really apply. You arenāt paying for knowledge or experience. Doesnāt service jobs in the food industry have a larger turn over than any other occupation? Point being, youāre paying for the manual labor of someone bringing food, drinks, refilling drinks, cleaning up, etc.
It sounds sounds juvenile to me to tip someone for a job well done in one facet of the job market and not the other. I know its a customary thing more so in western countries than asia, and someone mentioned New Zealand (Iām guessing Australia, that area of the world) and I know the japanese donāt tip (sorry for the run on sentence).
I see this as the government just finding another way to screw the working class by not requiring fair pay and having customer take on the responsibility of supplying someoneās income via tips. I have no issues with paying people fair wages. I am all for that. The federal minimum wage hasnāt changed since September of 1997, over 10 years. As well, most people donāt receive health or car insurance at these jobs. This is unfair and although tipping supplements, its not a viable way for many of these workers to pay for medication, car expenses and other health expenses. And that comes back to my point. Tips are not the answer, raising minimum wage and enforcing employers to provide proper medical coverage for their workers would be a better solution and taking it upon myself to give them a few bucks no top of my usually overpriced meal ticket.
[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
I see this as the government just finding another way to screw the working class by not requiring fair pay and having customer take on the responsibility of supplying someoneās income via tips. [/quote]
Fair pay is determined by the market not by a government bureaucrat.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Tipping is considered insulting here with most professions. Most of NZ frowns upon elitism.
There is nothing elitist about paying someone for a well done job. As a matter of fact the reason why service is so AWESOME in the US and SUCKS donkey balls every where else is precisely because of the almighty tip jar.
I bet you have no problem sliding a dollar into a strippers thong, you hypocrite.
:)[/quote]
This is a very ignorant statement. Itās cultural.
But you only tip for a job well done in the service industry, right? Not in any other job sector EVEN if the person goes out of his or her way for you, right? I wouldnāt be throwing the word hypocrite around so lightlyā¦
I usually get good service at higher scale restaurants. Usually (thereās a rare exception), I get mediocre service for mediocre food. The service seems proportional to the quality of the restaurant (most of the time).
[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Makavali wrote:
Tipping is considered insulting here with most professions. Most of NZ frowns upon elitism.
There is nothing elitist about paying someone for a well done job. As a matter of fact the reason why service is so AWESOME in the US and SUCKS donkey balls every where else is precisely because of the almighty tip jar.
I bet you have no problem sliding a dollar into a strippers thong, you hypocrite.
This is a very ignorant statement. Itās cultural.
But you only tip for a job well done in the service industry, right? Not in any other job sector EVEN if the person goes out of his or her way for you, right? I wouldnāt be throwing the word hypocrite around so lightlyā¦
I usually get good service at higher scale restaurants. Usually (thereās a rare exception), I get mediocre service for mediocre food. The service seems proportional to the quality of the restaurant (most of the time).[/quote]
Yes, tipping is cultural, and thank goodness for it. The US has figured out how to provide good, cheap services to the free market with individualized incentives. I have been to many other countries and I can honestly say without a culture of tipping the service sucks. They may be paid more they donāt earn anywhere near what an industrious, hard working tip earner does. Frankly, I like the fact that the barista at my local coffee shops goes the extra mile for a tip and I am only happy to provide that positive reinforcement upon a job well done.
Outside of the service industry there is something called a Bonus. It is not considered part of ones pay ā because it is non contractual. The free market has figured out that productivity goes up when confronted with a financial incentive.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Synthetickiller wrote:
I see this as the government just finding another way to screw the working class by not requiring fair pay and having customer take on the responsibility of supplying someoneās income via tips.
Fair pay is determined by the market not by a government bureaucrat.[/quote]
I would rather operate under the current system that allows me to use my dry sense of humor, charming personality and attention to detail to wring every nickel I can out of a guest. Hell, you can train a monkey to set a plate down in front of a diner. However, it takes skill to make someoneās dinner an experience. Why should the monkey get the same amount of money? Even though there are slackers out there that do not tip, on average I made about $20-25 an hour (central Illinois). There is no way the government is going to mandate that a restaurant pay me that kind of money. Not to mention that you would not be able to afford a meal if those costs were rolled into menu prices.
[quote]VanderLaan wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Synthetickiller wrote:
I see this as the government just finding another way to screw the working class by not requiring fair pay and having customer take on the responsibility of supplying someoneās income via tips.
Fair pay is determined by the market not by a government bureaucrat.
I would rather operate under the current system that allows me to use my dry sense of humor, charming personality and attention to detail to wring every nickel I can out of a guest. Hell, you can train a monkey to set a plate down in front of a diner. However, it takes skill to make someoneās dinner an experience. Why should the monkey get the same amount of money? Even though there are slackers out there that do not tip, on average I made about $20-25 an hour (central Illinois). There is no way the government is going to mandate that a restaurant pay me that kind of money. Not to mention that you would not be able to afford a meal if those costs were rolled into menu prices.[/quote]
Well, on average it would work out to 20% more and I daresay that bartenders would probably lose because drunk people tip way too much.
[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
Its interesting how its broken down. Hereās a help wanted at for a dominoās delivery boy position:
āSalary $12 to $15 per year + 5.15/hr base pay + $7-$10/hour in tips and mileageā
I think thereās a typo, maybe 12k - 15k? Considering what Iāve heard from people who did the job, they make a lot more than minimum when the day is done and arenāt hurting compared to working at fast food.
[/quote]
I donāt know whatās up with that add. Yes, I did make money well above fast food when I delivered pizzas, but it was BECAUSE of tipping.[quote]
That doesnāt cover āgtatuityā though in your argument. If you end up going out to eat with a large group and the service sucks, youāre still stuck a forced tip of 15%-20% depending on the restaurant. No punishment thereā¦ Thatās not even a tip, thatās a service charge.[/quote]
I donāt know what youāre saying here. Gratuity IS a tip. Youāre not expected to pay more beyond the added gratuity. And if you donāt like the gratuity, you can argue it and it will get removed. You may have to explain to the manager why you want it removed.
[quote]
Arguing that you want āsomeone who knows what they are doingā doesnāt really apply. [/quote]
You canāt tell me what I want doesnāt apply. That what I want. Someone with experience and good people skills is going to be a much better service provider than someone without.
[quote]
Tips are not the answer, raising minimum wage and enforcing employers to provide proper medical coverage for their workers would be a better solution and taking it upon myself to give them a few bucks no top of my usually overpriced meal ticket.[/quote]
If you think itās overpriced now, wait to see what you pay the restaurant owner suddenly has to triple 75% of his staffās wages.
[quote]Kreal7 wrote:
Makavali wrote:
If I get coffee and a reach-around from a spider monkey while reciting the pledge of allegianceā¦ then I might tip.
Is this from Scrubs? I remember an episode about Dr. Cox having a tip char and saying something like that to the person who gave him his coffee. I always get excited when I know a quoteā¦then again maybe I should be ashamed of being so dorky.
[/quote]
That sounds like something Dr. Cox would say and I know the episode you are talking about. Scrubs rules!
Argue with the added gratuity and see your service at that establishment go down the tubes since the staff will think youāre an ass. Tipping can easily work against you in this manner.
I donāt want to chit chat with my server, Iām there to eat, not meet new people. I went to a pizza parlor on Wednesday as a matter of fact. The people brought the pizza out and said if we needed anything to just ask. We tipped anyways. They didnāt do ANYTHING more than hand us some cups and carried out 2 pizzas. Iām not paying to talk to someone. Iāll call a 1-900 number if I need social communication that bad. Hell, T-Nation works too and its free!
I do agree that the price would go up, although not triple. Pay these people for a typical labor job. No one tips care takers for the elderly on a daily basis. Now thatās a hard job, cleaning up after people (who the hell wants to change diapers?), bathing people, feeding them, carrying them etc. These people get payed very little for a MUCH harder job than working in a restaurant and arenāt tipped. Too much double standard BS going on. While weāre at it why not tip a doctor or a police officer in relation to a life saving act. Oh waitā¦ they make too much money. Iād think tipping for good medical care would outweigh good service at a restaurant since poor medical care can easily result in death, ask any ER doctor about medical negligence.
Like Mr. Pink said, you tip these guys, but not these guysā¦ And thatās the point. There is way too much double standard tipping going on. Iām not responsible for anyoneās career choice, so why should I be responsible to pick up the slack for a lack luster pay check that you get for lack of an education?
I probably should start tipping 15% instead of the usual 20%+ I give. Iām convinced of that now.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Synthetickiller wrote:
I see this as the government just finding another way to screw the working class by not requiring fair pay and having customer take on the responsibility of supplying someoneās income via tips.
Fair pay is determined by the market not by a government bureaucrat.[/quote]
Free market would push to never increase wages. You wouldnāt see wage increases OTHER than a federal minimum wage that is established. 90% of countries have a type of federal minimum wage for a reason.
As if business owners have best intentions for their employees. I guess that explains why people in service industries make so littleā¦
[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
I donāt want to chit chat with my server, Iām there to eat, not meet new people. [/quote]And a good server should recognize that. Good servers adjust their service style to the customer. Bad ones donāt.[quote]
I do agree that the price would go up, although not triple.[/quote]
I didnāt say the price would triple. Their wages would have to triple in many states just to reach minimum wage.[quote]
Pay these people for a typical labor job. No one tips care takers for the elderly on a daily basis. Now thatās a hard job, cleaning up after people (who the hell wants to change diapers?), bathing people, feeding them, carrying them etc. These people get payed very little for a MUCH harder job than working in a restaurant and arenāt tipped.[/quote]
Then perhaps these people should get a job in a restaurant.
So what if thereās a double standard? Thereās double standards everywhere. Some jobs pay more than others. It doesnāt mean one is harder than the other. Thatās life.
And you keep bringing up lack of education. Are you insecure? You sound worried that a waiter with only a GED might be making more money than you?
You know what really pisses me off is when your at a bar and the bartender automatically puts your change into the tip jar. If its like 1 or 2 bucks, whatever, but at least let me put the money in there.
This other time, I was expected to get $8 bucks in change, so again, this bartender throws the change in the tip jar. I got really pissed off and mad that I just reached into the jar and got my change back. Shit, maybe if your some hot model or something, but just for 3 bears, fuk that.
For all those āFuck that, I donāt tip!ā people; you do realize that sometimes there are āconsequencesā shall we say for the lack of tips? Iāve never been one of the people to spit in other peopleās food, but Iāve bore witness to many things much worse back when I worked in the service industry.
There was a restaurant in our town that got in serious trouble a few years ago because one waiters got caught pissing in the soups of the people who gave shitty tips. (a la Fight Club) He admitted to doing it for over a year.
[quote]Synthetickiller wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
Synthetickiller wrote:
I see this as the government just finding another way to screw the working class by not requiring fair pay and having customer take on the responsibility of supplying someoneās income via tips.
Fair pay is determined by the market not by a government bureaucrat.
Free market would push to never increase wages. You wouldnāt see wage increases OTHER than a federal minimum wage that is established. 90% of countries have a type of federal minimum wage for a reason.
[/quote]
And yet wages rise. It is illogical that business owners would pay more than a fair market wage and also illogical that a worker would accept less. If he or she could get paid more they would. If a business owner could get away with paying less than fair market price he would else he would be punished by businesses that steal his workers away via wage competition. It happens all the time in the more highly paid professions.
[quote]
As if business owners have best intentions for their employees. I guess that explains why people in service industries make so littleā¦[/quote]
Service industry workers earn very little because their productivity is very low. Wages are a reflection of oneās productivity. As workers become more productive they can demand a higher wages and seek alternative employment when not satisfied.
Minimum wage regulations create unemployment for marginally skilled workers. If a business owner can afford to pay $2/hr to someone to sweep his floor and all the sudden he is forced to pay $6 through regulation guess who is getting fired first. Also it just means he has to waste the productivity of another more highly skilled worker to now sweep his floors. It raises prices on all consumer goods and only protects one sector of the work force while hurting the rest.
[quote]LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
And yet wages rise. It is illogical that business owners would pay more than a fair market wage and also illogical that a worker would accept less. If he or she could get paid more they would. If a business owner could get away with paying less than fair market price he would else he would be punished by businesses that steal his workers away via wage competition. It happens all the time in the more highly paid professions.
Service industry workers earn very little because their productivity is very low. Wages are a reflection of oneās productivity. As workers become more productive they can demand a higher wages and seek alternative employment when not satisfied.
Minimum wage regulations create unemployment for marginally skilled workers. If a business owner can afford to pay $2/hr to someone to sweep his floor and all the sudden he is forced to pay $6 through regulation guess who is getting fired first. Also it just means he has to waste the productivity of another more highly skilled worker to now sweep his floors. It raises prices on all consumer goods and only protects one sector of the work force while hurting the rest.[/quote]
I agree with most of this. However, some āprofessionalsā also earn high wages not only because they are āskilledā, but also because their numbers are carefully regulated. Example: Pizza Hut doesnāt have an American Medical Association type of organization that helps to limit the number of pizza workers (medical students) that can be certified every year. Itās the same for a lot of supposedly professional industries. There are a lot of >3.75 GPA college grads that donāt make it in to medical school every year. Most of them could be just as good of a doctor as that Asian immigrant kid who got in on a 3.2 GPA.
But if we expanded enrollments for lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, etcā¦ well a lot of that āhigher skillā theory kinda goes to shit.
[quote]Tithonus81 wrote:
For all those āFuck that, I donāt tip!ā people; you do realize that sometimes there are āconsequencesā shall we say for the lack of tips? Iāve never been one of the people to spit in other peopleās food, but Iāve bore witness to many things much worse back when I worked in the service industry.
[/quote]
very true. If you eat some place, enjoyed the service and have any plans on returning, then tip well. as a former waiter I can tell you that the wait staff always remembers the faces of two types of customers: those who tip well and those who donāt. and the next time you return you will be treated accordingly.
also, I remember being in a barbershop one day and this one customer who always throws around big tips was being teased by another customer for handing out so much money. The big tipper looked over at the guy and said ``I hook him up so the next time I come in here I donāt have to wait. Thatās why when I walked in today I got in the chair before you and everybody else who was already waiting.āā
Whether you think itās fair or not, he had a point. money talks
[quote]robo1 wrote:
Tithonus81 wrote:
also, I remember being in a barbershop one day and this one customer who always throws around big tips was being teased by another customer for handing out so much money. The big tipper looked over at the guy and said ``I hook him up so the next time I come in here I donāt have to wait. Thatās why when I walked in today I got in the chair before you and everybody else who was already waiting.āā
[/quote]
My uncle owns a barbershop and Iāve asked him about this particular type of scenario. He has never allowed for someone who has just walked in to just automatically be next just because he leaves a big tip, while other customers have been waiting in line for up to an hour. It simply gives your barbershop a bad reputation and you will be losing customers in the long run just for giving special treatment for big tippers.
Sure, its good to leave a tip to your barber and I do it to my uncle, but āhooking him upā so that I donāt have to wait in line is highly unlikely.
[quote]Tithonus81 wrote:
LIFTICVSMAXIMVS wrote:
And yet wages rise. It is illogical that business owners would pay more than a fair market wage and also illogical that a worker would accept less. If he or she could get paid more they would. If a business owner could get away with paying less than fair market price he would else he would be punished by businesses that steal his workers away via wage competition. It happens all the time in the more highly paid professions.
Service industry workers earn very little because their productivity is very low. Wages are a reflection of oneās productivity. As workers become more productive they can demand a higher wages and seek alternative employment when not satisfied.
Minimum wage regulations create unemployment for marginally skilled workers. If a business owner can afford to pay $2/hr to someone to sweep his floor and all the sudden he is forced to pay $6 through regulation guess who is getting fired first. Also it just means he has to waste the productivity of another more highly skilled worker to now sweep his floors. It raises prices on all consumer goods and only protects one sector of the work force while hurting the rest.
I agree with most of this. However, some āprofessionalsā also earn high wages not only because they are āskilledā, but also because their numbers are carefully regulated. Example: Pizza Hut doesnāt have an American Medical Association type of organization that helps to limit the number of pizza workers (medical students) that can be certified every year. Itās the same for a lot of supposedly professional industries. There are a lot of >3.75 GPA college grads that donāt make it in to medical school every year. Most of them could be just as good of a doctor as that Asian immigrant kid who got in on a 3.2 GPA.
But if we expanded enrollments for lawyers, doctors, pharmacists, etcā¦ well a lot of that āhigher skillā theory kinda goes to shit.[/quote]
Cartels, I mean unions and professional associations, provide protection to earners of higher wages. Obviously this has a different effect than minimum wage laws because it protects higher skilled workers from competition. When competition is not allowed to play out the effects are not good for consumers.
I like tipping the velvet.