Timing

Hi everyone,

I always doubt wether i should work my abs before or after training the major muscle group i chose for that day. For example, if its my bis/back day, should i work my abs before or after my B/B? the reason im confused is because i do around 500 abs and this takes about 25 mins, plus, it takes me like 1/2 hour to get to my house from the gym(drinking my shake in the gym is not an option), so maybe im missing the opportunity to drink my shake during the anabolic window, so my Bis/Back wont recover so well.
What do you guys think about this?

Thanks,

Rollus

I have always done them at the beginning of the workout simply because I know that I will be dead tired at the end and won’t want to do them. But don’t work them too often, they are a muscle group just like any other. If your diet is straight, then you shouldn’t need all that much work anyway.

I like a separate session for abs. This can be done at home with just a little equipment.

Also, you need to re-think your rep strategy. Here’s a cut and paste from an older T-mag article called ‘evolution of ab training’ issue 96 -

"Poliquin was one of the first training gurus to popularize low-rep ab work. The theory is simple. Slow-twitch fibers respond best to higher reps and low resistance. Fast-twitch fibers respond best to heavy resistance and, consequently, low reps.

You probably knew that, but did you know that the abdominals are composed primarily of fast-twitch fibers? In other words, if you’re one of those “three sets of 100 crunches” types, then you’ve been doing it wrong or, at least, not optimally.

According to Charles, performing more than 15 reps per set for abs will probably reduce the effectiveness of the exercise. Instead, do three or four sets of 8-12 reps, using some type of resistance and a slower tempo that emphasizes the eccentric phase of the movement. If you’re more advanced, you may want to perform as many as ten sets for abs, but keep the reps in the range of four to five.

Think about it, would you do 50-rep sets of biceps training? No, yet many people think nothing of getting on the floor and crunching their day away. This high-rep philosophy is probably left over from the spot-reducing myth. Remember Arnold talking about “whittling away” the fat with high reps? He was wrong—big, cut, and able to kick Satan’s ass, but still wrong.

The trick here is twofold. First, you’ll have to use resistance. Second, you’ll need to use a full range of motion. While the Swiss ball has run into some recent criticism, it’s still probably the best tool for ab training. The shape allows you to get a full range of motion, and the instability helps improve your balance, a must if you’re an athlete trying to approve agility.

The two best Swiss ball movements are Swiss ball crunches and reverse crunches. Allow the shape of the ball to give you a good stretch at the bottom of the movement. Start with three sets of 10-12 reps, and work your way to ten sets of four heavy reps. Hold a dumbbell across the upper pecs for resistance. If you must, wrap it in a towel for comfort. Yes, people will call you a big girl, but ten sets with a 60-pound dumbbell across your chest can get uncomfortable."

Good logic, right now im buking for the first time in my life, so I believe its true that i should work in size rather than definition, and this might be true for abs just as any other muscle.

This is the first time im bulking up since im a former fat guy. I think im doing pretty well, ive gained 1-1.5 pounds in 2 weeks. What do u guys think about that? whats the normal rate for gaining weight for a begginer and normal lean:fat ratio expected?

Thanks,
Rollus

i have a better theory…dont train them at all!

That’s gonna depend on your diet, Rollus.

Also depends on whether or not you’re natural ( which of course you are.)

Someone on androgens can expect to eat more and gain more lean mass compared to fat mass,of course.

Your progress seems on target, but the only way to tell for sure is to test bodyfat every two weeks or so and adjust accordingly.

Time and time again, its been said: there are concrete rules in this. It all depends on the individual. Do what you need to do, eat what you need to eat, train how you need to train in order to get the results you desire.

The key is constantly keeping tabs on your progressing and adjusting accordingly.

I would do them after your workout personally, but would also rethink the way you are training them. If you are having to do 500 reps you are doing something wrong.

Phill

P-Dog is the philosopher I would follow.

Big lifts = abs

Uh, that should read…

“There are NO concrete rules in this.”

Damnit.

Ok, thank u guys ive got enough info there, ill just aim to change technique and ill leave them post-lifting, since now it wont take so much time.

Thanks 4 the replies,

Rollus

You said you won’t do the high reps anymore because you’ve decided that you are putting on weight, so you’ll wait til you are cutting up, and do it then. This is what I understood you to say, if I’m correct in assuming this, then you didn’t gather the info in the Charles Poliquin quote. Re-read again and realize that you will not get cut by doing higher reps for abs. This is an old-school phallacy.

Looplift what i meant with post-lifting is ill work my abs after finishing with my bis/back. Oh, i work my abs on monday, wednesday, friday.
Is this ok or am i overtraining them?

Check out Christian Thibaudeau’s ab training article.

Rollus, my modest opinion is that you should replace the 500 abs + 25 min. with abs exercises you find in Tmag. However this is not enough. I guess that many bb would like to have a small waistline with outstanding abs. Unfortunately this scenario is the result of: 1)proper diet,2)proper cardio,3) proper abs training. Unless you are very dedicated,you have plenty of time, your wife has the same diet etc.,this can be a difficult goal.

I’m with Davo

there’s no way in hell i would do ab work before doing squats or deadlifts. i have done them as part of supersets (squat, abs, dips etc.) but i don’t do them to failure like that before something that uses them heavily like squatting. if your core is tired, how could you possibly keep good form on a big lift?!? maybe that’s just me, but i think it’s dangerous. and if you’re not doing big lifts, then you should be. you won’t NEED to do a shitload of ab work, cuz you will have done it through your whole workout anyway. lay down to do some silly crunches and i bet you’re tired already. cable stuff is fun, and takes less time… if you decide to throw some ab work in there.