Time for Some Real Strength

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:
Classy_Cojones wrote: Yes, my well informed opinion is much more valuable than your childish idol-seeking behaviour.

People who train with light weights and lots of reps but are extremely strong? Define extremely strong and give me an example.

That information is myth. It can be proven. Bruce Lee fought two amateur junior boxers in a school tournament. Bruce Lee fought a rival teenage gang member back when he was a teenage gang member himself. Bruce Lee fought some Wu-Shu guys when he was studying Wu-Shu.

A bit of history for you. There are yearly tournaments in which China sends their best Wu-Shu (aka Kung Fu) team over to Thailand to determine what the best art is. The first time this happened, years ago, the chinese got totally destroyed. Even funnier is how, with time, they have actually adoped the muay thai (aka kickboxing) way of training. They are trying to beat the thai with their own weapons (it’s called adopting the better technology, or, in this case, adopting a better version of a cultural activity - aka organized fighting). But funniest of all is how every year the new and improved chinese team are getting their asses kicked by B-grade thais (thais who would never even fight on the big stadiums in Thailand).

Now, when Bruce Lee saw the thais and what they can do, he pretty much shit his pants. Sure, he did it with a cocky swagger and self-assured smile, but cocky swagger or not, shitting your pants is shitting your pants.

Don’t want to believe it? Fine. You’re just another guy who belived the fairy-tales of losers past and losers present who ‘choose’ not to step in the ring. Wanna know why? It’s not because their art is too deadly, it’s because they’d get beat so bad it wouldn’t even be funny.

Another funny tidbit is this: people choose to bring up all the time how Bruce Lee fought this and that on the street (by his own admission he fought a few punk kids and that’s it), or how the founder of some modern breed of karate-meets-ninjutsu-on-steroids has an undefeated record of 14 wins and 0 losses on the street. Let me put it this way. The combined record of bad-ass boxers, kick-boxers and wrestlers who have worked the door or simply fought on the street, throughout the ages (think Kung-fu is old? think again, wrestling and boxing and even kickboxing are much, much older) is somewhere in the millions. Many millions. Many many many millions.

And don’t give me this “every coin has two sides, you choose to see a different part of the myth, we’re all right so let’s just get along” crap. There is only one truth. And Bruce Lee ain’t it.

Ha…idol seeking behaviour? Dont throw around petty titles when you dont have a clue what your talking about. Calling me childish and then calling your oppinion more valuable then mine? Very adult! You graduate from diapers last week?

Like I said…I meant absolutely no disrespect to you or your e-ego/virtual persona.

It would have been fine to just post the meat of what you said and I would have gladly retracted my previous statements because you backed up what you said…not hard for me to do that because as I stated before im no expert on the subject matter.

And yeah I know guys that do 50+ reps with light weights because they so choose…one of them I watched sqaut 800lbs when a powerlifter started talking shit about how his workout was bullshit…Im not saying Bruce could sqaut 800lbs but I dont buy into him being “weak” as the guy that posted before you stated before. If you know any lifters from malboro massachusetts I will gladly drop the name.

And every coin does have two sides. You provided good info so I know what your saying isnt simply oppinion…

But keep the “lets all get along bullshit” and other childish attempts to mock or undermine me to yourself.[/quote]

It’s called being cocky. Deal with it. And I don’t have to marry you in order to form an opinion based on your behaviour.

Since you’re now probably through with Bruce Lee’s nuts, maybe you’d like to hold onto mine for a while.

I powerlift, oly lift, and I train gymnastics (I used to compete).

I win.

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:
I have no reason to lie because I could give two $hits if some fool on a forum doesnt beleive me…[/quote]

but you DO have a reason to lie…you’re trying to give proof that people who do 50+ reps with light weight are very strong, this claim is complete bullshit…

NO ONE trains with light weights for stupidly high reps and then pulls an 800 lbs squat out of their ass…

if you do show a video clip of someone squatting 800 lbs to good depth with minimal gear, there is NO WAY the guy squatting that weight trained using very light weight and very high reps…

you are an astronomical internet shit talker…

[quote]DPH wrote:
Phoenix1911 wrote:
I have no reason to lie because I could give two $hits if some fool on a forum doesnt beleive me…

but you DO have a reason to lie…you’re trying to give proof that people who do 50+ reps with light weight are very strong, this claim is complete bullshit…

NO ONE trains with light weights for stupidly high reps and then pulls an 800 lbs squat out of their ass…

if you do show a video clip of someone squatting 800 lbs to good depth with minimal gear, there is NO WAY the guy squatting that weight trained using very light weight and very high reps…

you are an astronomical internet shit talker…[/quote]

Your a close minded fool that lives in some little bubble and refuses to beleive stuff thats true…thats your own problem not mine. Proving a point to someone on the interenet, as I said before is not on my priority list and I gain nothing from lying to prove it thus I wont lie…as for cojones, you two seem to have lots in common…cajones seems to have a lack of ladies in his life and wants someone to grab his nuts…go for it.

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:

Your a close minded fool that lives in some little bubble and refuses to beleive stuff thats true…thats your own problem not mine. Proving a point to someone on the interenet, as I said before is not on my priority list and I gain nothing from lying to prove it thus I wont lie…as for cojones, you two seem to have lots in common…cajones seems to have a lack of ladies in his life and wants someone to grab his nuts…go for it.[/quote]

I saw a unicorn the other day. Santa Claus was riding it around trying to impale the Easter Bunny with its horn. That poor damn Easter Bunny. If you don’t believe me you’re close minded and I don’t need to spend the time to prove it.

Nothing in science or experience tells anybody but you (a jerkoff on the internet) that people train in the manner being discussed and can bang out a 1RM with 800+ in the squat. If you are expecting reasonable people to believe this, you are out of your fucking mind and honestly have no idea what it takes to squat big weight. The fact that your are claiming it broadcasts your ignorance of strength training so loudly that we all have to cover our ears.

[quote]Classy_Cojones wrote:
JaysonVirissimo wrote:
Classy_Cojones wrote:
cap’nsalty wrote:
Classy_Cojones wrote:
It’s too bad that more people don’t cross over.

For example, once you reach a certain level in powerlifting (let’s say 2xBW for bench and 3xBW for squats and deadlifts) you would benefit a lot from strongman and especially gymnastics training.

Of course, it will be hard at first, and most people will think “why feel like a beginner when I can get back to squatting 560 pounds”.

But the truth is your progress will be A LOT faster than that of a real beginner. In a few training sessions your body will have already adapted to the new demands, and you will start to carry over some of your overall strenght into these more complicated tasks.

In the end, someone who has mastered powerlifting, strongman, gymnastics training, as well as some form of sport (perhaps football or wrestling or MMA) will be a much better athlete. And the more you vary your training (after attaining a foothold in one of the strenght disciplines) the faster you will progress.

It’s a question of do you want to be really good at one thing, or just ok in a lot of things. Especially something like strongman; when was the last time you saw anyone below 250 lbs at any of the big events? When was the last time you saw a 300 lb gymnast period?

I don’t really care that much about being an “all around athlete”. I just want to do one thing well.

What I write comes from the worldview of someone who is a fighter.

When it comes to strenght training, for me, powerlifting is the basis and matters most, I do gymnastics from time to time, always looking to improve on my previous performances, and strongman is all about explosive power and using my powerlifting strenght in new angles.

To answer someone’s question, the last time I saw a strongman under 250 pounds was the last time I watched a 205 (90 kgs competition). I’m sure Brad Cardoza, who posts here, could do most gymnastics tricks, that is, if he can’t already do them. When you’re that strong, it’s just a matter of learning the move.

This doesn’t make a whole lot of sense to me…You say you are a fighter yet you value powerlifting above gymnastic movements?

Powerlifting has WAY less carryover to the strength used in fighting then almost any other strength sport. Olympic lifting(for power), gymnastics(for balance), and low weight high rep circuits(for endurance) would all prove more useful for fighting then the sport of powerlifting.

Tell that to…oh…Mirko Crocop and Kevin Randleman, will you?

Powerlifting has a hell of a lot of carryover into fighting. [/quote]

I didn’t say it didn’t have carryover. I use powerlifts to build strength aswell. I said it had “less” carryover. IMO after technique, the most important attribute in a fighter is endurance followed by power. Strength plays a role but only after those other attributes. Also Mirko Crocop spends much more time on endurance training then powerlifting.

You are right about Kevin Randleman though his routine is made up of mostly powerlifting but he is an exception rather then the rule. Just look at the some of the most successful fighters in their weight classes: Fedor, Silva, Gomi, Franklin… all concentrate more on endurance training then maximal strength.

[quote]Kratos wrote:
GhostOfYourMind wrote:
This thread has gone from strength, to bruce lee…I love it! HEHEHE!

Anyways, for the original poster. I think that those movements are used to gauge strength because they’re not as technical and don’t take as long to learn/adapt/strengthen in comparison to some gymnastics skills. I’ll go out on a limb here and say it takes a helluva lot longer starting from scratch to work up to a planche pushup on the ground compared to building up your bench number.

See my point?

Also, gymnastics is much easier for short, muscular dudes. Show me a good 5’5" 156 lb. gymnast and I’ll be impressed. Show me a good 6’3" 240 lb. gymnast, and I will be goddamn impressed.
Show me a 6,[/quote]

Another good point Kratos! I think one of the larger olympian gymnasts in recent years was a Aleksi Nemov. I believe he is about 5’8" and 170ish lbs.

Most are quite short (Read- better leverages) though and probably weigh in at 130lbs. give or take 10lbs. for the average gymnast height; friggin’ shredded to get rid of any “dead weight”.

[quote]JaysonVirissimo wrote:
You are right about Kevin Randleman though his routine is made up of mostly powerlifting but he is an exception rather then the rule. Just look at the some of the most successful fighters in their weight classes: Fedor, Silva, Gomi, Franklin… all concentrate more on endurance training then maximal strength.
[/quote]

Good fighters have off-season and in-season just like all other athletes. Their off-season training focuses on technique acquirement, sparring and power training.

In-season focuses on endurance, less frequent sparring and lactic-acid endurance.

That you’ve seen Franklin’s and Couture’s pre-fight gym workouts says nothing about their off-season training. What you’ve seen was their lactic-acid training. It wasn’t even endurance, endurance is done through bag and pad-work, together with running and swimming.

Powerlifting is the back-bone of any power routine. Olympic lifting should be done in training cycles. You can get huge gains in the oly lifts in a short time if you’ve improved your powerlifts (I consider the overhead press to be a powerlift). Maximal strenght is the best predictor of all other athletic qualities (in a healthy body) - as long as you train them, of course.

Of course, you could go ahead and contradict me, but that would only prove that you haven’t even read testosterone.net, not to mention other resources.

Forgot to mention.

It takes 5-6 weeks (of well-thought out training) for a normal person to reach the endurance required for an all-out MMA war.

It takes less for a pro athlete to do the same.

These are facts.

So why don’t more fighters come in with great cardio? It’s probably a combination of a self-defeating attitude, bad diet, bad life-style choices (drinking and partying) and poor pressure-managment skills (you’d be surprised how fast cardio goes out the window when you’re scared).

[quote]RickJames wrote:
Phoenix1911 wrote:

Your a close minded fool that lives in some little bubble and refuses to beleive stuff thats true…thats your own problem not mine. Proving a point to someone on the interenet, as I said before is not on my priority list and I gain nothing from lying to prove it thus I wont lie…as for cojones, you two seem to have lots in common…cajones seems to have a lack of ladies in his life and wants someone to grab his nuts…go for it.

I saw a unicorn the other day. Santa Claus was riding it around trying to impale the Easter Bunny with its horn. That poor damn Easter Bunny. If you don’t believe me you’re close minded and I don’t need to spend the time to prove it.

Nothing in science or experience tells anybody but you (a jerkoff on the internet) that people train in the manner being discussed and can bang out a 1RM with 800+ in the squat. If you are expecting reasonable people to believe this, you are out of your fucking mind and honestly have no idea what it takes to squat big weight. The fact that your are claiming it broadcasts your ignorance of strength training so loudly that we all have to cover our ears.

[/quote]

1st off asshat most everyone on this site pulls the “genetic freak card” on a regular basis…its more then likely this guy would fall into that class…2nd me making an observation in a gym has absolutely nothing to do with my knowledge of training nor does it reflect any of my own principles…
Furthemore Im not claiming what I saw…I am stating it as fact. Like I said beleive it or not I could give two fucks.

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:
Your a close minded fool that lives in some little bubble and refuses to beleive stuff thats true…thats your own problem not mine.
[/quote]

there are two things I know to be true in life…

  1. most third graders spell better than you.

  2. you have super concentrated cowshit for brains.

[quote]Classy_Cojones wrote:
Forgot to mention.

It takes 5-6 weeks (of well-thought out training) for a normal person to reach the endurance required for an all-out MMA war.

It takes less for a pro athlete to do the same.

These are facts.

So why don’t more fighters come in with great cardio? It’s probably a combination of a self-defeating attitude, bad diet, bad life-style choices (drinking and partying) and poor pressure-managment skills (you’d be surprised how fast cardio goes out the window when you’re scared). [/quote]

You mentioned thai kickboxing awhile back and you seemed pretty familiar with it. Do they use powerlifting out there as well as the actual kickboxing or is the training different at those huge school in thailand and asia then it would be for someone involved in MMA or muy thai here in the states?

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:
Classy_Cojones wrote:
Forgot to mention.

It takes 5-6 weeks (of well-thought out training) for a normal person to reach the endurance required for an all-out MMA war.

It takes less for a pro athlete to do the same.

These are facts.

So why don’t more fighters come in with great cardio? It’s probably a combination of a self-defeating attitude, bad diet, bad life-style choices (drinking and partying) and poor pressure-managment skills (you’d be surprised how fast cardio goes out the window when you’re scared).

You mentioned thai kickboxing awhile back and you seemed pretty familiar with it. Do they use powerlifting out there as well as the actual kickboxing or is the training different at those huge school in thailand and asia then it would be for someone involved in MMA or muy thai here in the states?[/quote]

While powerlifting is a great idea for MMA, it has to be done very carefully in kickboxing.

Too much bulk and you’ll end up in the wrong weight-class, eating one knee after the other.

That being said, I know kickboxers who fight in limit weightclasses (non heavyweight) who have pretty much doubled their strenght with powerlifting without changing weightclass. They’ve added 8-10 pounds that they cut pre-fight. Of course, this took very careful training parameters, none of that wacky martian-monkey 50 reps stuff.

[quote]DPH wrote:
Phoenix1911 wrote:
Your a close minded fool that lives in some little bubble and refuses to beleive stuff thats true…thats your own problem not mine.

there are two things I know to be true in life…

  1. most third graders spell better than you.

  2. you have super concentrated cowshit for brains.[/quote]

[quote]DPH wrote:
alot of people seem to get great results from it…unfortunately I didn’t get any stronger using it, but I did get indegestion, I’m not going to spend $13 on something that has never given me anything more than stained undies…[/quote]

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=indigestion

Before you flame my spelling you might want to check yours in other threads. But being the grammatical powerhouse you are I shouldnt have to tell you that.

[quote]avitohol wrote:
I absolutely agree with that. I came to realize the difficulty of gymnastics when I switched from powerlifting to bodyweight training. I think you will agree that most of the stuff gymnasts do is damn hard if you weigh 200 pounds like me. Can you suggest how I can work up to a planche and a one-arm chin? Do you happen to have some resources on getting stronger at these? I’m really struggling with them. Thanks.[/quote]

heavy weighted chins… followed by chins and chins and more chins. i competed in gymnastics when i was younger and just recently got back into it. i’m pretty consistent with the one arm chins. planche is nothing more than a horizontal handstand.

get good with handstands, you can also use a box or something to place your feet on. and keep pushing your body forward, eventually youll get to where your feet will lift off the box. drillsandskills.com has trainers/tutorials/videos on about everything. ps i’m about a hair away from performing a maltese, i’ll post a pic when i get it…

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:
DPH wrote:
alot of people seem to get great results from it…unfortunately I didn’t get any stronger using it, but I did get indegestion, I’m not going to spend $13 on something that has never given me anything more than stained undies…

http://dictionary.reference.com/search?r=2&q=indigestion

Before you flame my spelling you might want to check yours in other threads. But being the grammatical powerhouse you are I shouldnt have to tell you that.
[/quote]

haha, fair enough…

guess we’re both a couple of third grade level dumbshits…

[quote]Phoenix1911 wrote:
Like I said beleive it or not I could give two fucks.[/quote]

They why get so upset when we don’t actually believe it?

Like a lot of people I occasionally grapple and play around with gymnastics. I’d love to do a lot more of both, but I have to waste 8 hours a day at a meaningless job and then there is the sleep thing. There is only so much time for cross training. I think a lot of people would do more if they had the time. I found this on the web. Very interesting…

skillstest.crossfitto.com/

I love how the only people who have seen these legendary feats of strength accomplished by some wacky method are the fanboys of that particular method.

Everybody has seen the way Westside guys train and how strong it gets them.

Everybody has seen the way Metal Militia guys train and how strong it gets them.

Everybody has seen the way (insert any other legit training method) guy trains and how (strong/fast/powerful/etc.) it gets them.

The only people that seem to witness these extraordinary feats are the ones proclaiming the method works. Funnily enough since they never seem to be able to demonstrate it on any legitimate field of competition.