Timbo/Joel - Max whey utilized at one time?

Bigger Stronger Leaner Competitive Bodybuilding
1

I was hesitant to post this, b/c I know the topic has been stomped to death - That is ‘the amount of protein that can be utilized at one sitting’, but I want to be specific about it.

I want to know how much WHEY powder can be used in one meal. I ask b/c I am allergic to dairy and casein and thought that I should up my intake of whey suppl. during P+C meals (hopefully keeping my fat for the meal down). Currently i eat 1.5 cups of rice or oatmeal and 30g of whey with it and some veggies as well.

I notice that in most meal recommendations I see here at t-mag, 30g+ are recommended, but that is always in conjuction with cottage cheese or protein blends like GROW! that contain casein. Is using 30g+ of whey too much at one time if eaten with my P+C meal, or with a P+F shake?

Timbo and Joel, I thought of you when I decided to post this. Hope you can help me out!

2

Mayfield…First of all, I would not recommend whey protein as a standalone source of protein at any other time during the day outside of: before, during and/or after training. The rest of the time, this will not serve as an optimal source of amino acids (read JB’s Bedtime Story for more details). If you do choose whey during the day, then add a whole-food source of protein to it. This might even be more optimal than consuming whole-food protein alone.

Now, I’ll give you a smart-ass answer to your question about “How much protein can one use in one sitting…” All of it!

All dietary protein is broken down into its consituent amino acids during digestion and absorption. Because there is no storage pool for amino acids like glucose or fatty acids (i.e. glycogen, adipose tissue, intramuscular triglycerides), the body must utilize the amino acids in one way or another.

The most likely scenario is that the amino acids will be used for protein synthesis and tissue turnover–remember from all of JB’s articles on protein (i.e. Protein Prejudice) that the functions of amino acids are not simply to build muscle–although it is what we want to be the first priority.

In the case that there are excess amino acids, the nitrogen component of the amino will be cleaved off (i.e. deamination), leaving a carbon skeleton. All macronutrients are bonds of carbon, hydrogen and oxygen, with protein having the unique nitrogen component.

Because some amino acids are considered ketogenic and some are considered gluconeogenic, the fate of these deaminated amino acids will vary. Those that are ketogenic will–after deamination–be incorporated into the cycle of fat metabolism. One fate of these is to be stored as triglyceride if not used for energy. The gluconeogenic precursors, on the other hand, will be incorporated into the metabolic cycles specific to glucose.

I hope this little physiology lesson helps, and once again shows why it’s so difficult to store protein as fat and that one should maximize protein intake.

As far as your original question, my answer is: I don’t know! Honestly, just try to meet your desired protein requirements. I would rather see a balance of protein throughout the day; however, you’ll still see advocates of the protein pulse type diets.

3

Timbo, I want to make sure I understand what you wrote. You don’t recomend whey protein as a standalone source of protein becuase it will not serve as an optimal source of amino acids?

4

JeffRage…you shouldn’t use whey as a “standalone” protein source other than right before training, during training, and post training, because as JB mentioned in his article “Bedtime Story” whey protein intake “(30g) produces large transient hyperaminoacidemia. After an hour, blood amino acids are elevated by about 300%. After two hours, about 92%. After 4 hours, you’re back to baseline. This is ideal for increased protein synthesis, but does nothing for protein breakdown,” Basically, if you ingest whey by itself (with water for example)…blood amino acids are back to normal after about 4 hours. If you are the type of person who drinks a whey drink for breakfast (for added protein) and you dont workout till late afternoon…it is not conducive cause your blood amino acid profile will be baseline. Now, if you ingest whey along with whole foods such as cottage cheese (GREAT source of casein)…then that is a different story. Read JB’s article…it will clear everything up for you. Talk to you later

5

Thanks for the lesson Timbo - so eloquent as usual. my concern was that with the ‘quick’ absorption of whey, that larger (30g+) amounts at one serving might not all get used with some being excreted (or broken down for other use). I suppose I just wanted some assurance that I wasn’t wasting my beloved whey powder. But I guess I can’t cheat my own physiology. It just makes it a little trickier when you’re sensitive to casein. I had been eating alot of sardines (20g P, 8g F) in one tin, then add 1/2 scoop protein. I find it works well…but dude, you can only eat so many sardines…

Thanks again T-Bomb.

6

Tony, Yup, I did read the article. So, it’s still no good, even if you eating every 2-3 hours?

I am switching from Whey to Grow Low-Carb. I was doing this because of the potential for insulin to rise after eating whey. I guess that’s not the only problem with whey.

7

Jeff Rage,
Yeah, you can take in some whey every two hours if you want, but it is just a pain in the ass! Why not combine it with some whole food such as cottage cheese or something and reap the benefits of both whey AND casein and save some money to boot?

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Tony the Tiger, thanks for being a mediator there. You did an excellent job of explaining things.

Rage against the Machine: What Tony said is really true. I shall take a quote from the researchers in the classic Boire study on protein utilization (1):

Since muscle protein status is a function of both synthesis and breakdown, you need to do your best to combat both arms. That is, you want to raise synthesis and decrease breakdown, both to the greatest possible extreme.

Another point to recognize is that the oxidation rates of whey protein is very high. That is, those aminos will be released rather quickly. As such, the rate may very well exceed need, and therefore, the likelihood of deamination is greater.

Mayfield: I hope the above info helps you also. Thanks for the kind comments. I’m glad that my eloquence was helpful in getting the message across:-)

    1. Slow and fast dietary proteins differently modulate postprandial protein accretion. Boirie Y, Dangin M et al. Proc. Natl. Acad. Sci 94 (1007) 14930-35
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Rage: "I am switching from Whey to Grow Low-Carb. I was doing this because of the potential for insulin to rise after eating whey. I guess that’s not the only problem with whey. "

I wouldn’t villify whey because of the ‘insulin spike’ associated with it. If I’m in a rush I’ll make a P+F shake with whey/flax oil/olive oil and some fish oil caps. This will significantly reduce any undesirable insulin response. This was also discussed with Dr. Lowrey on the guest forum 2 wks ago. The preference would be to mix some sort of whole food protein with it, but the above alternative isn’t that bad. According to the Ice Dog CT, in order to illict an insulin spike from whey you need to consume around 50g+. So if you take in a resonable amount and mix it with oil, insulin shouldn’t be a concern.

Perhaps Timbo or Tongy G can elaborate on this though.

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“This is ideal for increased protein synthesis, but does nothing for protein breakdown”

I hear this statement all the time relating to whey. Does this suggest that protein breaks down all the time?

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when i ever drank some whey other than around training time, i’ve always mixed it up with egg protein, in hopes of slowing absorbtion, and just to have a more rounded protein intake. This has got to be a better alternative than just straight whey, but it’s not great.

12

Thanks Tony, Timbo, & Mayfield. I’ve been in this game for more than 8 years, but still learn things every day.

I was only using 17 gm of protein at a time, so maybe it wasn’t that bad. In any case, the tub o’ whey is almost empty and the low-carb grow is sitting next to it, waiting to be opened.

13

Mayfield,
I totally agree with you in regards to adding some “healthy” fats such as fish oil or flax oil with your whey to help reduce the insulin spike. BUT…I certainly hope that you arent focusing on getting the majority of your protein intake through powders and MRP’s. As my boy Timbo has stated numerous times in the past, one shouldn’t deny the powers of good ol’ chicken, turkey, tuna, lean beef, eggs, etc. Not to mention JB makes a good point when he says that constantly relying on whey powders can be downright boring! Timbo made some VERY relavent points above concerning protein synthesis and protein breakdown. Personally, why spend all the extra money on supplements when you can eat “cheaper” foods and to get the same affect? I am in no way saying that using whey is bad (or low carb Grow for that matter). I use whey quite a bit…but like you Mayfield…when I do use whey…I tend to eat some whole foods with it, never by itself, unless it is around workout time. Make any sense? Good thread by the way!

14

A7- Basically, yes.


Protein is being continuously broken down and synthesised in the body. This is how the body maintains itself day-to-day. In an individual maintaining the same body composition, the body remains in a state of NET homeostasis by balancing breakdown and synthesis.


If you are a bodybuilder, the ultimate aim is to attempt to increase protein RETENTION in the muscles. We do this by either increasing synthesis, reducing breakdown, or both. This is what all the training, diet and supp. manipulations are attempting to achieve. Make sense?

15

Well, Tony the Tiger brings up another fantastic point that I always strive to make elicit: emphasize whole foods. Obviously, certain times bring about circumstances that don’t allow for such. So there are definitely times when a liquid meal is advised.

Remember, I am not talking about during or post-workout nutrition in any of these posts when I make comments about whey being inferior.

Low-Carb Grow! is the shiznit, though, and I really, really enjoy this. So, I am not trying to say that I don’t consume any protein supplement. However, I never drink it. It’s either a pudding or mixed in with something (i.e. oats, cottage cheese, etc). Not that it makes a difference.

Back to the topic at hand…

Mayfield: As far as fat and whey mixture, I would still suggest that you opt for a protein blend (i.e. LC Grow!) in this scenario. Why? Well, although fat ingested by itself will not cause any release of insulin, fatty acids are insulin potentiators. Via the action of gastric inhibitory peptide, fatty acids can further enhance an already-present insulin response.

Therefore, we know that whey is oxidized quickly and the aminos are highly gluconeogenic, as I’ve already discussed. Therefore, I feel that this may be a dilemma in that the aminos may be quickly deaminated to gluconeogenic precursors, then subsequently cause a rise in insulin via that means and also because of the amino acid content itself is highly insulinogenic (that’s why it’s a post-workout protein). Combine that with the fatty acid potentiation and the high levels of plasma fats, and you might be in some trouble.

16

Uh oh, I seem to be getting a lot of protein from supps. Typical day:

MRPs 84 gr.
Whey 34 gr.
Chicken 67 Gr.
Veggies 5 gr.

(I’m a short guy, this is 1.5Xlbm)

Are you guys saying I should be eating more whole food? I use a lot of supps as they are easy to make and I think they are cheaper than real food.

Damn that Grow tastes better than the whey!

17

Wow I am in over my head. I thought I new alot but, I have just been humbled. Boy I have got alot to learn.

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Wow I have been humbled. I thought I knew alot. i have alot to learn.

19

Just a couple more quick thoughts, kids.

First off, I think I might be over-analyzing things here a bit. I’m pouring a lot of theory and conjectures into this. Like JB often says, you really don’t know how good or bad something is for you until you try it and see how it affects your physique. Now, obviously, we know that eating a bunch of junk everyday need not go through the trial and error test:-) So, take that with a grain of salt.

However, I’ve made mention before how potent insulin is as an anti-lipolytic. That is, insulin is a potent inhibitor of lipolysis and stimulator of lipogenesis, inhibiting hormone sensitive lipase (HSL) and stimulating lipoprotein lipase (LPL), respectively.

My point is, the talk of an insulin spike is beside the point! Elevating insulin just 10 microunits/ml is powerful enough to inhibit lipolysis (during exercise) to the same extent that 50g of glucose pre-exercise does (which stimulates insulin concentrations in the neighborhood of 50 microunits/ml).

20

Timbo- are you saying that adding fatty acids to whey could potentiate the insulin spike? I had been using a whey only protein (isopure-i went with it for the low carbs)with added flax or olive oil. I had assumed that combining the whey with a fatty acid would slow the gastric emptying and slow the absorption of the whey as well as blunt the insulin response. If I understand what your saying the opposite could be true. NO wonder why Im so fat! Ive since switched to Lean Mass Matrix protein- a low carb whey casein blend from Prolab. I gotta get my hands on some Grow! I wish Biotest did a better job of getting their products into stores. Mail order is a bitch for me as I think my UPS man is sadistic and likes to see how long he can avoid me b4 he fianlly has to give up my packages.