Tim Sylvia-World Class Striker?

Training Powerlifting
41

[quote]DaMadMonk wrote:

This is MMA. Liddell wins because he is smart and circles to get angles. Watch the last fight w/ Liddell and Courture. He created the angle and nailed Courture. Straight punches might look great but it won’t win you fights. Liddell knows this. You can’t tell me Liddell doesn’t know how to punch straight. He know’s how to knock guys out and so does Franklin.

[/quote]

Considering all the posts that have been made regarding MMA fighting on T-Nation, this is one of the best paragraphs I’ve read. I couldn’t have said it better.

42

Keyser,

Well I had no idea. I stand corrected. :slight_smile: I’m glad we can agree on Tim though. He pivots on his knees instead of at his waist. It makes me sick to watch.

43

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
sjfou wrote:
LMAO - did i hit a nerve Monk? dude, Randy outboxed him. Jackson out-striked (out-struck?) him. i doubt think those 2 guys will ever get a mention as a world class striker. Please dont tell me you take Xycience too…

And since then he has developed…It’s what you’ve done lately. he’s a good striker. Look what Jackson and Couture have done lately.[/quote]

I always hear people say that Liddel is better now. How do you know? How much better? Better enough to not get dominated by Rampage? The only definite thing I know since Rampage’s beat down on Liddel 3 years ago is that Liddel is three years older.

44

Liddell Appears to hit harder/faster…in training footage…
Also, better footwork/timing and has had more chance to see Jackson fight…
Also, not saying new Lidell is better than old Lidell so much, though I believe he is…I’m saying he is now better than Jackson who has leveled off or even declined…Jackson’s ability to take a shot remains good though

[quote]otoko wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
sjfou wrote:
LMAO - did i hit a nerve Monk? dude, Randy outboxed him. Jackson out-striked (out-struck?) him. i doubt think those 2 guys will ever get a mention as a world class striker. Please dont tell me you take Xycience too…

And since then he has developed…It’s what you’ve done lately. he’s a good striker. Look what Jackson and Couture have done lately.

I always hear people say that Liddel is better now. How do you know? How much better? Better enough to not get dominated by Rampage? The only definite thing I know since Rampage’s beat down on Liddel 3 years ago is that Liddel is three years older. [/quote]

45

[quote]Scrappy wrote:
Liddell Appears to hit harder/faster…in training footage…
Also, better footwork/timing and has had more chance to see Jackson fight…
Also, not saying new Lidell is better than old Lidell so much, though I believe he is…I’m saying he is now better than Jackson who has leveled off or even declined…Jackson’s ability to take a shot remains good though

otoko wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
sjfou wrote:
LMAO - did i hit a nerve Monk? dude, Randy outboxed him. Jackson out-striked (out-struck?) him. i doubt think those 2 guys will ever get a mention as a world class striker. Please dont tell me you take Xycience too…

And since then he has developed…It’s what you’ve done lately. he’s a good striker. Look what Jackson and Couture have done lately.

I always hear people say that Liddel is better now. How do you know? How much better? Better enough to not get dominated by Rampage? The only definite thing I know since Rampage’s beat down on Liddel 3 years ago is that Liddel is three years older.

[/quote]

I see your points about Liddel. I do not know about Rampage’s decline. The fight between the two was one-sided. A three year older Liddel would have to have improved alot. Rampage has fought in the k-1 ring against a k-1 fighter(Abidi) and won.

Who would be the best strker besides Rampage that Liddel has faced? Alistair maybe? Alistair got destroyed by Glaube Feitosa in 2004. The UFC should have made the rematch happen, it is a shame.

46

Zuffa/UFC overblow all of their competitiors its what promoter do, Sylvia is quite frankly a horrible striker, his movment is no existance, hes slow. He has hard hands granted but thats about it.

If LeBanner/Sylvia ever comes to be Sylvia will get tooled comprehensivley worse than Matt did royce.

Anybody remeber Frye/Lebanner in K-1? Now what do you think a hook like that will look like with those tiny 4oz gloves? Its will not be pretty that for sure

47

On the case of Liddell, his punches are loopy granted but he also hits like a mack-truck and puts people on the canvis. However him being the no.1 205lbs is jumping the gun a bit.

He has wlaked through the UFC LHW division but sayin that the UFC LHW division has consisted of

1 - Vitor
2 - Chuck
3 - Tito
4 - Randy

For the past 2 1/2 Years! Its been these guys doing the rounds with each otehr for so long I can’t rember the last time the last time these guys fought anybody of a higher caliber…

Oh thats right Chuck got beat by Rampage. For chuck to be crowned *1 in the LHW class he will have to fight some of the Pride guys and until then any ranking of this nature is preley spculation.

However Chuck/Babalu will prove to be his most stern test I belive to date if he comes out of this one with flying colours I think it will add a shit load more validity to his current reputation in the fight game

48

[quote]MarcKeys wrote:
On the case of Liddell, his punches are loopy granted but he also hits like a mack-truck and puts people on the canvis. However him being the no.1 205lbs is jumping the gun a bit.

He has wlaked through the UFC LHW division but sayin that the UFC LHW division has consisted of

1 - Vitor
2 - Chuck
3 - Tito
4 - Randy

For the past 2 1/2 Years! Its been these guys doing the rounds with each otehr for so long I can’t rember the last time the last time these guys fought anybody of a higher caliber…

Oh thats right Chuck got beat by Rampage. For chuck to be crowned *1 in the LHW class he will have to fight some of the Pride guys and until then any ranking of this nature is preley spculation.

However Chuck/Babalu will prove to be his most stern test I belive to date if he comes out of this one with flying colours I think it will add a shit load more validity to his current reputation in the fight game[/quote]

You have a good point about Liddel having only fought those few guys the past few years. It is really hard to tell if he has gotten better. Belfort hasn’t beat any top guys recently. Couture was getting old.

For me Liddel would have to beat Rampage, Silva, Arona, Lil Nog to call himself the best in the world.

49

369×504 45.7 KB

i wouldnt say world class, but he’s alright. but in my opinion he wouldnt stand toe to toe against this man.

50

[quote]otoko wrote:

I always hear people say that Liddel is better now. How do you know? How much better? Better enough to not get dominated by Rampage? The only definite thing I know since Rampage’s beat down on Liddel 3 years ago is that Liddel is three years older. [/quote]

I think Liddell is smarter now especially after losing to Couture in their first fight.

If you watched the fight, Couture had a very smart game plan. Couture would get into a half clinch with Liddell and use “dirty boxing” with him. This game plan was use very effectively in this fight as well as previous fights. This was Coutures standup plan and Liddell lost to it because he was always in front of Courture in the fight.

In matches 2 and 3, Liddell used more of the circling, side to side footwork to put a stop to Courture game plan. This created angles to let Liddell’s fists fly and K.O.'d Couture on both occasions.

Especially in the Octagon where the fighters have a lot of room, Liddell uses this to his advantage against take downs as well as providing his world class striking skill set the best chance of winning.

51

Sylvia isn’t world class in regards to his technique, he is very far from it. However, when you have other attributes to use a lack of technique may not hinder you.

For Sylvia, the fact that he’s 6’8" and has a huge reach just masks his lack of technique. As long as he is able to use his reach advantage against opponents, keep his distance and load up a good right hand then he will continue to dominate, technique be damned.

As for Lidell, I think Monk summed it up best. He has tremendous footwork and the ability to generate amazing power from his punches, even while back pedaling! Couple this with his great sprawl and ability to get up when put down and its quite a devastating combo.

If “world class striker” is used in reference to pure boxing technique then every MMA fighter will fall very short of the classification. However, if you consider the ability to use striking effectively in MMA against world class opponents and in such a dominating manner that you have over half of your fights end with a KO or TKO, then yes, they are both world class strikers.

52

[quote]otoko wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
sjfou wrote:
LMAO - did i hit a nerve Monk? dude, Randy outboxed him. Jackson out-striked (out-struck?) him. i doubt think those 2 guys will ever get a mention as a world class striker. Please dont tell me you take Xycience too…

And since then he has developed…It’s what you’ve done lately. he’s a good striker. Look what Jackson and Couture have done lately.

I always hear people say that Liddel is better now. How do you know? How much better? Better enough to not get dominated by Rampage? The only definite thing I know since Rampage’s beat down on Liddel 3 years ago is that Liddel is three years older. [/quote]

So hmmm, I’m going to run with your logic a little here, Liddell beat two guys in the UFC handily who ran over Wanderlei Silva who ran over Quinton Jackson, so by the transitive law of MMA Liddell is thereby the best in the world, but since he lost to Jackson who lost to Rua who lost to Coleman who lost Renzo who lost to Penn, Penn is thereby the LHW champ of the world. Thanks, I’m out.

In all seriousness, Liddell has been locked into competition with Couture for much of his past few fights which has garnered much attention for MMA and the UFC in North America. This is good for the sport as it generates more viewers, more revenue, and hopefully better fighters, but has prevented him from facing different fighters and truly placing him at the top position in his weight division.

I’m tired of people bringing up the Pride fight with Jackson as evidence of Chuck’s inferiority. Losing one fight does not make you a chump or an inferior fighter, on that night in that ring Quinton Jackson was the better man. He does not get to wear the tag indefinitely because it is how you rebound and retool after your losses that will make you a better(or worse in Jackson’s case) fighter.

Look at the guys Liddell has fought, he hasn’t ducked anyone so how can you continue to fault him for UFC’s lack of depth. He went to Pride looking to take on Wanderlei and came up short, I guess in your mind that makes him an inferior fighter, but how many of Pride’s guys have come to the UFC looking to make a statement about their dominance?

53

Hi guys,

alfuh,

I think you are right on about Liddell. And that was pretty much what I was trying to say in one of my previous posts. Liddell does not have “World Class” (as in boxing) striking skills. That does not however mean that he isn’t a dangerous fighter. He gets by on his attributes, much like some of the great boxers have (Ali, Jones Jr. Marciano, etc…).

I’m definetely not saying that’s a bad thing (obviously looking at the men who have done this would make me a fool for doing so), but let’s call a spade a spade. As far as boxing technique goes Liddell is not world class, as far as being effective at utilizing his attributes to KO opponents in MMA, he is world class.

But, let’s say for a moment that he developed world class technique and applied his attributes to it. He would be even better than he is, and would most likely be a contender in any venue that allowed striking (boxing, K-1, MMA, etc…).

SlimJim,

I completely get what you’re saying, and isn’t it funny how certain styles seem to just match up well against other styles. You could continue that continuum by; Penn, who got beat by GSP, who got beat by Matt Hughes, who got beat by Ken Hallman, and so on and so on. It really just illustrates the fact that you can’t necessarily define a fighter’s ability by who they’ve defeated (well except maybe for Fedor, since he’s beaten everyone).

Also, I for one am not trying to suggest that Liddell is inferior. Yeah, he got stomped by Jackson, and that remains his only unreconciled loss. Does that mean he’s a chump? No, of course not.

And as far as why we haven’t seen any of the Pride guys come into the UFC “looking to make a statement about their dominance”, that can be racked up to a little thing called money. Why would the Pride guys even care about coming over to the UFC to fight when the can make a lot more money continuing to fight in Japan?

Good training,

Sentoguy

54

Sylvia has fists at the end of his arms. Arlovski has a glass chin. End of story.

55

[quote]slimjim wrote:
otoko wrote:
Scrappy wrote:
sjfou wrote:
LMAO - did i hit a nerve Monk? dude, Randy outboxed him. Jackson out-striked (out-struck?) him. i doubt think those 2 guys will ever get a mention as a world class striker. Please dont tell me you take Xycience too…

And since then he has developed…It’s what you’ve done lately. he’s a good striker. Look what Jackson and Couture have done lately.

I always hear people say that Liddel is better now. How do you know? How much better? Better enough to not get dominated by Rampage? The only definite thing I know since Rampage’s beat down on Liddel 3 years ago is that Liddel is three years older.

So hmmm, I’m going to run with your logic a little here, Liddell beat two guys in the UFC handily who ran over Wanderlei Silva who ran over Quinton Jackson, so by the transitive law of MMA Liddell is thereby the best in the world, but since he lost to Jackson who lost to Rua who lost to Coleman who lost Renzo who lost to Penn, Penn is thereby the LHW champ of the world. Thanks, I’m out.

In all seriousness, Liddell has been locked into competition with Couture for much of his past few fights which has garnered much attention for MMA and the UFC in North America. This is good for the sport as it generates more viewers, more revenue, and hopefully better fighters, but has prevented him from facing different fighters and truly placing him at the top position in his weight division.

I’m tired of people bringing up the Pride fight with Jackson as evidence of Chuck’s inferiority. Losing one fight does not make you a chump or an inferior fighter, on that night in that ring Quinton Jackson was the better man. He does not get to wear the tag indefinitely because it is how you rebound and retool after your losses that will make you a better(or worse in Jackson’s case) fighter.

Look at the guys Liddell has fought, he hasn’t ducked anyone so how can you continue to fault him for UFC’s lack of depth. He went to Pride looking to take on Wanderlei and came up short, I guess in your mind that makes him an inferior fighter, but how many of Pride’s guys have come to the UFC looking to make a statement about their dominance?[/quote]

Try this MMAth to pick the best LHW:

Babalu beat Shogun.
Tito beat Wandy and Vitor.
Rampage beat Liddell, Arona.
Wandy beat Rampage, Arona.
Arona beat Wandy.
Shogun beat Lil Nog, Arona and Rampage.
Liddell beat Babalu, Tito, Vitor.
Vitor beat Wandy.

The LHW division is too messed to pick a number one, that is for sure.

56

[quote]slimjim wrote:

Look at the guys Liddell has fought, he hasn’t ducked anyone so how can you continue to fault him for UFC’s lack of depth. He went to Pride looking to take on Wanderlei and came up short, I guess in your mind that makes him an inferior fighter, but how many of Pride’s guys have come to the UFC looking to make a statement about their dominance?[/quote]

I am not saying A beats B, B beats C, so A beats C. I am not using that logic, because you couln’t follow it through to it’s end nd be satisfied with the outcome, like you demonstrated. I am not denying that Liddel is a good fighter.
Couture was a good fighter also. Originally this thread was about Sylvia being a world-class striker. I don’t think anybody has set the parameters for what is a world-class striker is. It seems though that everybody has a different definition of what one is.

For me it would be somebody with out-standing boxing skills(amateur is fine) and kicking skills. Who has used such skills succesfully against other trained striking professionals. A good example would be Crocop. So yes other than elite K-1 fighters I do not consider anybody to be world-class. Now about Sylvia, since there are no world-class strikers in the UFC heavyweight division, he cannot have proven himself to be one. He has won his fights by striking against guys who themselves were not the best strikers. Sylvia is tall, he is tough, and he can hit hard. Though I do not believe that his height and skill set would be a daunting obstacle to a Crocop or Lebanner, if Sylvia were to try and stand with them.

Also about Pride guys coming to the UFC. Well they have been offered several times. This has been stated by the Pride president Sakakibara. Then it is up to the UFC to make those fights happen. If they can afford Royce Gracie(1.3 million), who was loaned to them by K-1, they certainly have the ability to pay up.