What you continually miss is that my focus has been on the posters here.
Nowhere have I stated that racist problems no longer exist or racial attitudes no longer affect ethnic minorities.[/quote]
Gee, but you did state this by making the claim that any time I bring up a situation I have experienced, that it is some type of persecution complex. The arrogance involved by you claiming to know what I have experienced and degrading my ability to perceive it in the process is astounding. I mean, how do you do it? How do you wake up every morning that much elitist bullshit in your head and still find the ability to function?
[quote]
The point is dirt simple, stated again - at some point there is a line between reasonable suspicion stemming from experience and the plain old wannabe-victim persecution complex.[/quote]
Yet you, through a computer screen, have judged my experiences to be false and made up. You have decided that my ability to view certain situations is somehow disabled and only YOU can see the truth. Again, the shit is piling high.
[quote]
But, and I’ll quote Pookie: And that means that you must accept anything said by a minority without ever having the right to question it? Or the audacity to point out they’re wrong? [/quote]
How do you know I’m wrong? Were you there? I have watched as you related an experience I described to EVERY time a white person gives a compliment. You can’t possibly be that stupid. You honestly believe that I could not experience any form of social racism in that context and that by mentioning it, I must assume that EVERY COMPLIMENT ever given is a racist insult.
Roll down a window.
[quote]
Why is saying “you’ve crossed the line into irrationality” to an ethnic minority so taboo to you? Can you not question this idiotic presumption on the table that ethnic minorities will assume people not of their ethnic background are acting in a racist way, no matter how nice it is on its face (a compliment)?[/quote]
How do you know how nice it was?
Not only do you take the position of telling me what I have experienced, you now also claim to know what was intended by someone you were never anywhere near. Yet, somehow, you have deemed me wrong…how?
Please describe the process you used to come to the conclusion that I was wrong…besides you thinking you are better than me and can “perceive” the world better.
I mean, that is what you are saying, right?
Because it just COULD NOT BE what I perceived it to be. It had to be that the individual described was child-like in innocence and my warped mind created the scenario…right?
Your random rant aside, the point remains - it is ridiculous to assume that when a white person calls a black person ‘articulate’, is presumed to be done in bad faith and is a racist act.
I don’t dispute any experience you have had. Nor did I claim to know anything about your experience. What I am challenging is your presumption - which I think is idiotic and the result of something like a persecution complex. And that presumption - just like any opinion you offer up here in the forum - is fair game for discussion…well, you would think so.
And don’t act surprised that someone mentioned that you have a persecution complex. First time you have heard that? Be honest.
My comments were - and still are - narrow to the issue at hand: the general use of the word ‘articulate’ and the presumption of racism in its use.
I claim no expertise over your experiences - this started when Harris said that a white person calling a black person ‘articulate’ was automatically condescending because of the inherent racist overtones. I say anyone who actually buys into that is the one with the problem, not the white person expressing a compliment. No more, no less.
There is nothing elitist with taking your story, thinking about it, and thinking it is wrong. Just because you are a minority making the claim doesn’t mean I have to swallow it as truth without evaluating it critically.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
And, how do you know patients aren’t commenting on well-spoken white doctors? How could you possibly know that?
Ahahahaah! Bwahahahahaaha! Are you fucken serious?
You can’t be serious!
To comment on something of this nature it is generally something contrary to your initial expectation, otherwise you wouldn’t fucking comment.
Do you see what I’m saying at all? Something has to prompt a person to notice something, to make a comment, otherwise it would never occur to them to say such a thing.
Now, some of you innocent wallflowers may not have a single racial bias in your brain, but if you were a minority you’d hear what surprises people enough to recognize some serious biases in society.
Stop fucking pretending that racism, or at least racial attitudes, don’t exist. Stop trying to tell minorities that they are wrong all the time.
Yes, minority groups can be hypersensitive to this, but I’m pretty sure you can assume it’s due to facing these issues all the time and being sick and tired of it.[/quote]
The problem isn’t the perception of surprise – the problem is the attribution of the cause. A possible cause can’t definitively be ascribed as the cause without more than a feeling that it’s correct…
Take Tiki as the example – a lot of people are surprised by the eloquence of an athlete, and will comment on it. Tiki happens to be a black athlete – can we then automatically assume the surprise was caused by the fact he is black?
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Your random rant aside, the point remains - it is ridiculous to assume that when a white person calls a black person ‘articulate’, is presumed to be done in bad faith and is a racist act.
[/quote]
Since your post to me was basically the above, I’ll address this from my perspective.
Nowhere have I said that every time a compliment is given that it is not in fact a compliment. However, I have suggested that when minorities notice that they receive compliments of a certain type often enough, they may start to notice patterns.
You’ll also notice that I have left myself to generalities and even defended Nuthunter on this particular issue because of the comparison being made and the presumable appropriateness of the compliment given the subject of comparison.
You are working way too hard to discredit the entire notion of racial bias… and I have to wonder why?
You can disrespect me or make fun of the fact that I’m able to discern these issues while you can’t, but every time you do you are merely sticking your foot in your own mouth. Please, do so at will, perhaps one day you will discover you don’t like that flavor anymore.
Let me draw you a comparison in language you may possibly grasp. A very sexy woman with big tits rises to power in a company. Guys say things like “I wonder who she slept with to get to the top”. Every time her peers or coworkers stare at her tits and give her a compliment for doing a simple task she knows is not worthy of a compliment, she may be aggravated by it.
Can anyone see why? Anyone? Spicoli?
This is true even if many of the people giving those compliments are actually oblivious to the fact that she has to work ten times as hard as the ugly powerful women to be taken seriously - as somebody with a brain and business acumen. Even if the person giving the compliment has no clue that he or she has just insulted the sexy but smart woman by giving a compliment because of bias (because of her looks) and not necessarily performance.
There is a bias against very sexy people actually being smart and competent. So, compliments on actually having half a brain, instead of noticing the person has a full brain, are very insulting. Having a million lechers discount your brain can be very insulting…
Oh well, I doubt you’ll be able to fathom the analogy either, because obviously compliments can only engender good feelings in the recipient. Duh.
Either that, or maybe you’d actually have to have a brain to realize some of these subtleties and apply them to other situations.
It amazes me that so much of the depth involved, in so many issues, is simply missed by so many people. Zzzzz. Did you have fun sleeping through your life?
[quote]BostonBarrister wrote:
The problem isn’t the perception of surprise – the problem is the attribution of the cause. A possible cause can’t definitively be ascribed as the cause without more than a feeling that it’s correct…
[/quote]
Again, for the criminally retarded, I am not trying to take one example and provide proof that it can be ascribed to one particular thing.
However, I am saying that if you are the recipient of the same compliment enough times, you’ll start to know some of the reasons that it is given to you. I think we see some profound arrogance in this thread when some people feel they know better than people who have lived through these issues…
Certainly, being a meathead and having brains is another bias that is out there, and while annoying, at least it isn’t racial.
Your random rant aside, the point remains - it is ridiculous to assume that when a white person calls a black person ‘articulate’, is presumed to be done in bad faith and is a racist act.[/quote]
My random rant aside? First, it is not meant that EVERY TIME A WHITE PERSON USES THIS TERM IT IS AN INSULT. There, I capitalized it for you because you seem to be either incapable of understanding what is being said…or perhaps you just aren’t that bright. Maybe your racial bias is getting in the way, who knows.
[quote]
I don’t dispute any experience you have had. Nor did I claim to know anything about your experience. What I am challenging is your presumption - which I think is idiotic and the result of something like a persecution complex. And that presumption - just like any opinion you offer up here in the forum - is fair game for discussion…well, you would think so.[/quote]
Hold on, you said above that racism is not dead yet when someone presents any manifestation of it, your action is to immediately discredit it? How do you not see the glaring social error you are making? How does this not come across as bias to you?
Simply put, if every time a minority mentions an act of racism several non-minorities jump to action in an attempt to discredit it, how could you not see why every chance possible for it to be brought to light it gets media attention much like the Seinfeld crap that just happened? You have a hand in the reaction of the public…by simply always acting to discredit it at every single chance you get. What would make someone do that?
Why would someone need to work so hard to make it seem as if racism does not exist in society?
[quote]
And don’t act surprised that someone mentioned that you have a persecution complex. First time you have heard that? Be honest. [/quote]
On this site? You and those like you show it time and time again ANY TIME a situation is mentioned where it is expressed. If I mention being pulled over for no reason, there are immediately responses from your type who jump to the cause to act as if it is NOT because of profiling. If I mention someone locking their car door when I walk past, you and your kind immediately jump to action to say, "well, maybe she had been raped before and it had nothing to do with social stereotypes even related to race (this was actually an explanation in the past when that exact scenario was mentioned).
Again, why would people need to work so hard…to act as if these situations either don’t exist or simply can NOT be racism? What exactly would possibly qualify for “racism” if left to people like you? Only blatant hangings and lynchings? You seem to think no social applications can ever be made unless so blatant that I am left with a burning cross in my front yard. Are you really that dumb? Or is this a choice?
[quote]
I claim no expertise over your experiences[/quote]
BULLSHIT. You claimed to know exactly how nice the person was and that it was not racism. You claimed my perception was wrong and that by mentioning it at all, I have a persecution complex. Yet you then turn around and act as if you don’t understand why minorities will take the opportunity to shine a light on any public manifestation of it.
Gee, perhaps if every time a minority mentions an act of it, it were NOT attacked as being irrelevant and false, there would be no need for it. Considering many like you seem to want to pretend that none of this happens whenever it is mentioned, how can you not see that as a problem in itself?
Again, are you just socially blind…or just socially inept?
[quote]
There is nothing elitist with taking your story, thinking about it, and thinking it is wrong. Just because you are a minority making the claim doesn’t mean I have to swallow it as truth without evaluating it critically.[/quote]
Gee, one last time…read it slowly…you are not only claiming that my perception is false, but in this thread, you have claimed to even know how nice the person was. You not only go OUT OF YOUR WAY to avoid accepting the possibility that I could be correct, you invent situations to help you cope with it.
You simply don’t want to believe it. That is the bottom line. It has nothing to do with any rational response…because nothing I wrote above gave you the many justifications you imagined to help you cope with the existence of it. It seems to be your nature to feel the need to immediately discredit any claims of social/racial bias. If anything points to a persecution complex…how could it not be that?
[quote]vroom wrote:
However, I am saying that if you are the recipient of the same compliment enough times, you’ll start to know some of the reasons that it is given to you.[/quote]
Because you’re worthy of it? Because people who claim you’re are telling the truth?
[quote]pookie wrote:
vroom wrote:
However, I am saying that if you are the recipient of the same compliment enough times, you’ll start to know some of the reasons that it is given to you.
Because you’re worthy of it? Because people who claim you’re are telling the truth?
Sheesh.
[/quote]
Aaaah, ignorance is bliss. If the only way you can mentally consider any of this is to pretend as if CONTEXT and the specific situation do not matter, then continue on. We obviously have nothing to talk about. Just let me know when you want to discuss something a little more reality based, Pooks.
Wasn’t it concluded that Tiki is gay in another thread? As I recall it was decided that his eloquence in speech couldn’t held against him but his snappy dress and the irrefutable “gleam in his eye” were more than sufficient to make the case. T-Nation threads are like man-law after all.
That leads me to ask, HH, are you saying you would vote for a gay man for president?
Since we’re throwing out names of people for whom we would vote based on their performances on morning shows, I’ll throw out Matt Lower. Sure he’s dumb as shit and looks kinda pathetic with his haircut, but he does have more experience in the all-important format than Tiki.
My random rant aside? First, it is not meant that EVERY TIME A WHITE PERSON USES THIS TERM IT IS AN INSULT. [/quote]
Well, that’s what was being discussed - the general use of the word ‘articulate’ as categorically bad. As mentioned to Vroom, no one was saying every complaint of racism was wrong or unfounded - we were talking specifically to the use of the word ‘articulate’.
This has been said too many times for you to pretend to ignore, yet it infects the rest of your post.
Yes, that’s it. I have tried to explain to you that Harris suggested THE EXACT OPPOSITE OF WHAT YOU JUST SAID AND CAPITALIZED ABOVE - and that is what started this discussion. So when addressing my points, you should remember that is what I was discussing.
I highlighted more evidence of your nonsense. At what point have I tried to immediately discredit any manifestation of racism? When and where? See, once again, you have engaged in straw man. I am discrediting the specific assumption that Harris raised about the use of the word ‘articulate’ - I have never attempted to discredit any and all claims of racism.
So there is no ‘glaring social error’ on my part - because the position to ascribe to me simply doesn’t exist. I have tried repeatedly to inform you that I am not speaking generally that all complaints of racist behavior are in bad faith, but that I think this particular one is.
I ask you to do better - that was just plain stupid.
But that isn’t what I am doing, genius. I am not trying to discredit every single chance I get. I am saying Harris’ presumption here is bad - and I have tried to remind you over and over in my postings that that was my focus.
I wonder - do you even read the posts you reply to? Most of the time, it is as though you don’t.
Dunno - because that is not what I am doing. One point I made earlier was that going and trying to find racist action where there isn’t one only contributes to the problem of racism because we take our eyes off real problems when we focus on fake ones.
I would make the above paragraph blink on and off with a naked fitness model on it if that would make you read it, but alas, I can only hope that you will read it, digest it, and not make up some position I don’t have.
I am not saying racism doesn’t exist - I am saying sometimes claims of it go too far and those claims need to be addressed candidly and honestly, and not be reduced to puppets of political correctness.
Being a victim brings you attention. And Lord knows you love attention.
And don’t forget - you are the one that has earlier referred to a person of a different ethnicity than your own as an ‘opponent’. Feeling persecuted?
If other people are doing that, no problem - take it up with those people. That is, repeat, not my position, but you keep trying to make it stick.
See above. Shine the light all you want, but when I think you have it wrong, I am not just going to take your word for it. If that bothers you - that people won’t just lay down and accept your word as Gospel - then too bad. Toughen up.
Well, specifically, I was saying that calling someone ‘articulate’ is generally viewed as ‘nice’. Neither myself nor you are psychic, so we’ll just have to leave it at that.
Now for the possibility you could be correct - that is not what I am arguing. I am arguing that the presumption exists to assume you are correct - and that is wrong. You have no idea what a person who calls you ‘articulate’ is thinking any more than I do - you are guessing. And your guessing will be informed by other things. Here, it is informed by the fact that the other ethnicity - your opponent (your words) - is automatically presumed to be acting with racist intent. I say such a presumption is dumb.
The person paying the compliment may be the Grand Wizard of the KKK for all I know, but is it rational to automatically presume that the comment is racist? No.
“Any claims of social/racial bias”? After how many times I have said the opposite? How do you type this and feel honest at the end of it? You are lashing out like a child throwing a tantrum.
Last paragraph, a summary: I believe racism exists. I believe there can be acts that have sneaky racist undertones even when they look innocent on their face. I don’t believe we have such an instance here, which is the general use of the word ‘articulate’ as automatically condescending with racist undertones, as Harris argues initially against Headhunter’s post.
Moreover, it is not about what a person is really thinking - most often we will never know - it is about the presumption of what that person is thinking. Nor do I think that is a good idea to start with the mindset that people of other ethnicities are opponents until they prove that they aren’t.
When white people do that, it is wrong, and it is wrong when everyone else buys into it. And just because someone raises a claim of a racist act doesn’t mean that it is always accurate, and if I don’t think so, I shall say so.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
pookie wrote:
vroom wrote:
However, I am saying that if you are the recipient of the same compliment enough times, you’ll start to know some of the reasons that it is given to you.
Because you’re worthy of it? Because people who claim you’re are telling the truth?
Sheesh.
Aaaah, ignorance is bliss. If the only way you can mentally consider any of this is to pretend as if CONTEXT and the specific situation do not matter, then continue on. We obviously have nothing to talk about. Just let me know when you want to discuss something a little more reality based, Pooks.[/quote]
You’ve still never addressed Pookie’s original concern: How DO you compliment someone such as yourself? If someone complimented you on your hard work, for example, does this imply that the speaker means that most black people are lazy and ‘Wow! Surprise! A black dude who actually tries HARD!!’? In my culture, that’s ludicrous.
Then also, if what I say is a compliment in my culture, why is it up to me to understand that the same thing is an insult in your culture? Since I am not part of your culture, how am I to know this?
Oh, I see, I’m supposed to understand YOUR culture but you don’t need to make an effort to understand mine. You can draw conclusions based upon YOUR beliefs, they are valid, they are irrefutable, and its obvious that this was an insult.
Thunder is correct. Persecution complex, plain and simple.
You are working way too hard to discredit the entire notion of racial bias… and I have to wonder why?[/quote]
Your clumsy attempt to call me a racist not withstanding, you keep making the same mistake - I have not in any way tried to discredit the entire notion of racial bias.
As I stated earlier, there are legitimate claims and wrong-headed claims. And if we see a wrong-headed claim, we can say so. In fact, I think we need to - we need to focus on the real problems of racism and not waste our time and resources chasing and legitimizing a false claim of it.
Heh.
Spare us.
Fine, but ‘articulate’ does not fall into that category - and that is what we have been arguing all along. That is a compliment that is worthy on its face - even Jason Whitlock (a black) made it about Bill Cosby (another black).
So, yes, there can be spiteful, underhanded compliments - but, is there one of those here? Your abstractions are missing the point we are zeroing in on. We all recognize such a situation can and does exist - but does it exist here, in the case of the general use of the word ‘articulate’?
Once again, you want to spool paragraph after paragraph of attempted thoughtful insight into things we already know, with the belief you are enlightening us with your open-minded analysis. But everyone here knows and recognizes that the underhanded compliment situation is alive and well - is it present here, in this situation???
Classic Vroom - you are standing on first base giving us a dissertation on the importance of getting to first base and the complexities and values of of the first base paradigm - all while the rest of us are already rounding third.
See above.
I got the analogy. If the sexy corporate VP runs a good meeting, and someone comes up afterward and says “you really ran a good meeting, and you were very well-spoken today”, should she automatically presume that the individual assumed that hot women couldn’t run good meetings or speak publicly with any proficiency?
This is always hilarious. Vroom, why and how could you possibly think that you are some guru of wisdom and experience, while the rest of us roam the earth like mindless, clueless cattle? Where does this ridiculous and desperate self-assurance come from?
Do you honestly think that if we - the collective ‘we’ - put our resumes of life up against yours, we would all fall flat in comparison to your vast travels, studies, discussions, and chin-rubbing wisdom?
Give me - no, give us all - a break. No one is buying it.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Aaaah, ignorance is bliss. If the only way you can mentally consider any of this is to pretend as if CONTEXT and the specific situation do not matter, then continue on. We obviously have nothing to talk about. Just let me know when you want to discuss something a little more reality based, Pooks.[/quote]
Reality based? You’re the one who’s relating a personal incident and then using that to back up Harris’ sweeping generalization that calling a black man “articulate” is condescending.
Because you felt that a compliment might have been the result of lowered expectations because of your skin tone, you want us to believe that anytime a compliment is paid to a black man, racism is at work? That’s what you’re claiming is “reality?”
How does that work, by the way? How does a smarter entity like yourself ascertain the entire thought process of another person from across a room? Is there margin for error? Does it work only for race related bias, or do you get the entire catalog of their prejudices? What about intensity? Can you sort them and determine if the person is more sexist than racist?
It must be great to be able to deduce, with no possibility of error, a person’s entire interior monologue from just a few words. With us, regular and fallible mortals, it sometimes happens that we take offense when none is meant - because of various assumptions, or we’re in a bad mood, or we misunderstand our interlocutor’s intent. It happens that our perceived context does not match the other person’s.
That’s why, in reality, most sweeping generalization about anything turn out to be wrong; and why Harris’ initial post is full of it.
Sometimes I get surprised at how petty people can be. If somebody means to compliment you sincerely and you get offended, then you’re an asshole, period.
If you are looking to get offended the you will be.
[quote]
BostonBarrister wrote:
The problem isn’t the perception of surprise – the problem is the attribution of the cause. A possible cause can’t definitively be ascribed as the cause without more than a feeling that it’s correct…
vroom wrote:
Again, for the criminally retarded, I am not trying to take one example and provide proof that it can be ascribed to one particular thing.
However, I am saying that if you are the recipient of the same compliment enough times, you’ll start to know some of the reasons that it is given to you. I think we see some profound arrogance in this thread when some people feel they know better than people who have lived through these issues…
Certainly, being a meathead and having brains is another bias that is out there, and while annoying, at least it isn’t racial.[/quote]
As you can plainly read, I wasn’t saying that you were. I was pointing out the problem that set off the whole thing – the assumption of a cause, and then the posting/acting on that assumption.
BTW, you don’t “know” any of the reasons it’s given in any particular instance without knowing more than that you have heightened sensitivity due to assumptions about past causation…
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Fine, but ‘articulate’ does not fall into that category - and that is what we have been arguing all along. That is a compliment that is worthy on its face - even Jason Whitlock (a black) made it about Bill Cosby (another black).
[/quote]
Okay, then we are arguing at cross purposes… no surprise.
However, with respect to the above, I think I’ll take the word of a minority as to what they find offensive, as opposed to what I (or a jackass like yourself) think should or should not be offensive.
What we have here, straight from the minds of various people of various minorities, is a chance to find out ways that they are being aggravated by things that happen, that may not be readily apparent.
At the same time, we have a chance to make the case that some things should be taken with less sensitivity. However, again, don’t discount the fact that a compliment can cease to be a compliment to the recipient even thought the giver can honestly mean it.
As for my travels, etc, stop being such a petty dink. I’m not saying they are fantastic, but just that I’ve seen it first hand, and I’ve seen it in different environments, so it has stood out. It was so damned clear a dunce like myself finally figured it out.
[quote]pat36 wrote:
Sometimes I get surprised at how petty people can be. If somebody means to compliment you sincerely and you get offended, then you’re an asshole, period.
If you are looking to get offended the you will be. [/quote]
I’m going to throw off the sensitivity gloves and put it into context for the criminally retarded, so take the following under that context.
Let’s say many people feel that black people speak in ebonics and so forth, such that a well spoken understandable black person is “surprising” to one Mr. Redneck Crackerboy Honky. So, whenever Mr Honky talks to a black person that can actually speak he is very impressed and gives a nice glowing compliment “Boy, you done speak english real good”.
So, he’s really impressed, and has no idea he’s crossing several racial issues simultaneously, and intends the compliment sincerely.
Your wonderful fucking assumption is that the recipient of this is supposed to smile and be genuinely happy to get a compliment?
Wake the fuck up and join the real world every once in a while you flakes. You are dreaming if you think compliments can’t be insults because of the ignorance and bias that is underlying them.
However, if you’ve never had to deal with such an issue, I can at least understand how you would be blind to it. I’d imagine it’s pretty confusing to receive, is the person an idiot, are they really trying to be friendly and complimentary, are they insulting and trying to make fun of you, just what the fucking hell are they trying to say. You go through this EVERY FUCKING TIME you get that sime compliment, to figure out if it’s genuine, deserved, ignorance or actually a trick insult… as some people are happy to be insulting while acting innocent about it.
Yeah, I’d be happy to spared that type of compliment!
Please resume the parade of criminal rertardation proudly being displayed in this thread.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Your wonderful fucking assumption is that the recipient of this is supposed to smile and be genuinely happy to get a compliment?[/quote]
And your wonderful fucking assumption is that the recipient assumes that every white man who pays him a compliment is a “Mr. Redneck Crackerboy Honky.”
Who’s the one letting prejudices taint his perceptions here?
Some people apparently enjoy taking offense and wake up everyday looking for new ways to find it. You want to join the Victim-Fu Masters? Go right ahead.
But please, stop asking us to play along. Some of us, when presented with bullshit on a plate prefer to send it back, rather than eating it up and asking for crackers.