[quote]harris447 wrote:
Once again, I stand by the fact that calling a man who was valedictorian of his high school[/quote]
Because all valedictorians are eloquent and articulate speakers? I really doubt that.
John Madden probably commands even more money; I wouldn’t call him eloquent and articulate.
I’ll agree that HH’s motives are simply to stir shit up. But to state that anyone who pays a black man a compliment is being condescending is completely stupid.
This thread is more interesting now because of a perceived cultural difference. What is a compliment in one culture is perceived as quite insulting in another (following the reasoning of Prof and Harris).
What are the implications of this? If we remain segregated, then we continue to have clashing cultures. If we live together, we’ll clash now (witness this thread), because of past segregation.
Maybe it would be better to have more diversity NOW and get the clashing ‘out of our system’, so to speak.
[quote]pookie wrote:
I’ll agree that HH’s motives are simply to stir shit up. But to state that anyone who pays a black man a compliment is being condescending is completely stupid.
[/quote]
Tiki Barber IS a fine man whom I admire and would happily vote for, if he chose to run. I refer to him to illustrate that: (a) I like conservatives and moderates, black or white (b) ripping black liberals IS NOT rascist, any more than a black man ripping white conservatives is not racist.
If its not clear by now that I am not a racist, then the ones making the charge have mental problems.
[quote]Headhunter wrote:
If its not clear by now that I am not a racist, then the ones making the charge have mental problems.[/quote]
Personally, I think you protest too much.
Holy shit this is dumb. Now we have to argue about how to properly compliment somebody in order not to offend? If you get offended by someone paying you a compliment then the problem is you and you will perpetuate the disease of racism; at least in your mind. You are seeking to get offended so you can fight about how put upon you are. If you are looking to get offended then you will be. Quit being so petty. Really, take a step back and look at it. They way some are talking is that the only way not to offend a black person is to not speak to them. Walking on egg shells does wonders for race relations. Hell, why do we even have “race” relations? Why can it be “people” relations? Isn’t paying attention to a persons skin color a racist act? To say most “black people”, or most “white people”? If we say we are not racists, why do we put so much power into skin color?
We made a movie “White Men Can’t Jump” what is we made one called “Black men can’t swim”? I bet you there’d be a shit storm a brewin’
The only way to not be offended is to have confidence in yourself and believe in yourself. If you are so frgile as to get offended at any little thing that can be construed as an offense.
People have told me that I am pretty articulate for a southerner, I guess I should be offended.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
A racist act, done by one black against another, according to the bone-headed theory being proffered here.[/quote]
Don’t forget “funny, passionate, concise, profound and inspiring.”
Jason Whitlock’s real name is probably “Whitelove” and I’m betting he wears a full Klan outfit in the privacy of his home.
Anyone so lavish with his praise of a black man is obviously a white supremacist speaking condescendingly to his deservedly oppressed inferiors.
Am I getting the gist of this thread right?
[quote]Sloth wrote:
And, how do you know patients aren’t commenting on well-spoken white doctors? How could you possibly know that?
[/quote]
Ahahahaah! Bwahahahahaaha! Are you fucken serious?
You can’t be serious!
To comment on something of this nature it is generally something contrary to your initial expectation, otherwise you wouldn’t fucking comment.
Do you see what I’m saying at all? Something has to prompt a person to notice something, to make a comment, otherwise it would never occur to them to say such a thing.
Now, some of you innocent wallflowers may not have a single racial bias in your brain, but if you were a minority you’d hear what surprises people enough to recognize some serious biases in society.
Stop fucking pretending that racism, or at least racial attitudes, don’t exist. Stop trying to tell minorities that they are wrong all the time.
Yes, minority groups can be hypersensitive to this, but I’m pretty sure you can assume it’s due to facing these issues all the time and being sick and tired of it.
I do have to add, in Nuthunter’s potential defence, that Bush is not articulate and that comparing any potential candidate to Bush would leave one with the thankful thought that the candidate was articulate.
This is at least reasonable because after Bush it is indeed out of the ordinary to imagine a well-spoken president.
I am incredibly saddened to have to admit such a thing.
[quote]pookie wrote:
Headhunter wrote:
If its not clear by now that I am not a racist, then the ones making the charge have mental problems.
Personally, I think you protest too much.
[/quote]
You have called me this ‘too much’ and once was too much.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Stop fucking pretending that racism, or at least racial attitudes, don’t exist. Stop trying to tell minorities that they are wrong all the time. [/quote]
Name one person here who has suggested this, espoused this, or otherwise posted it. Go for it.
And I am pretty sure some individuals have a frighteningly transparent persecution complex, going looking for racist acts in every conceivable situation, even when the details don’t warrant it.
Real racism most certainly exists - and when we try and manufacture a racist act where one doesn’t exist, all in the name of nursing a persecution complex, it takes our collective eye of the ball of racist acts that are genuine.
[quote]vroom wrote:
To comment on something of this nature it is generally something contrary to your initial expectation, otherwise you wouldn’t fucking comment.[/quote]
That is complete and utter crap.
When I visit some random professional, I have the “expectation” of at least base competency.
If, upon interaction with said professional, he strikes me as being not only competent, but in fact excellent, I will most certainly feel free to comment on it; be it directly to him or when recommending him to family and acquaintances.
His race or sex doesn’t figure in the equation at all.
I don’t know about where you live, but around here, excellence is sufficiently rare that it deserves to be noted.
If people take offense at being complimented, then they’re the ones with personal issues they should resolve.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
Name one person here who has suggested this, espoused this, or otherwise posted it. Go for it.
[/quote]
just open your innocent little eyes…
I am sure those people are out there as well…
I don’t think Nuthunter was being racist, as he is in reality making a comparison to the president, however, don’t discount the fact that minorities “surprise” people and get more comments than the majority.
This isn’t racism, but instead what I’m referring to as a racial attitude or racial bias. The fact that such bias is not blatant racism doesn’t mean it should be ignored or that it doesn’t have an impact on minorities.
While I see people claim that minorities are wrong and looking for things, which at times can be true, I also see people saying that “it’s all in their heads” all the time, which is very likely to be false.
The issue is, and it’s a real pickle, the minority never knows when it is just in their head or when it is the real deal. Maybe you should ponder that for a while, because it creates serious issues that they will deal with on a lifelong basis.
Unless you are living that, you probably shouldn’t be so quick to ignore the lifelong annoyance that is being dealt with.
[quote]pookie wrote:
That is complete and utter crap.
[/quote]
No, it’s not. Believe it or not your words often reveal something of your thoughts or feelings. Strange how that works…
Of course. However, your own comment above, that your wife said, didn’t appear to include the concept of being able to speak well. It seemed that the doctor listened to the patient, which can be rare these days, and addressed her concerns well.
As well it shouldn’t.
Of course, excellence is noted. What you are missing is that surprises of any type are noted. Excellence is generally “beyond your expectation” and comments that something is “beyond your expectation” can reveal your expectation. Get it?
Yes and no. In the business world, if someone compliments your looks, you might find that they assume you got to where you are because of your looks. It’s a compliment that makes you second guess a few things.
Heck, if you can’t see it, I’m not saying you are wrong, but I am trying to point out that there is room for an issue here that a few people seem to be blind about.
If I was from some identifiable group that people generally didn’t expect much of, in some capacity, then I’d get a lot more compliments on some facet of being competent than would my non-identified peers.
This would cause me to discount the veracity of those compliments, and instead to realize that in many cases the compliment was due to lower expectations of my ability. That would sour the compliment.
[quote]vroom wrote:
just open your innocent little eyes…[/quote]
It is always odd to see you lecture others on not being naive.
Yep, and I can name at least one poster in this thread who is a candidate for that label - Professor X - and possibly Harris, as well. So I am dealing not with the abstraction of ‘those people out there’, but rather two people who have responded in this thread.
Fine - so why let a persecution complex trump common sense? Tiki Barber is being courted to do broadcasting when he retires - why must Harris default to thinking the compliment is laden with racist overtones when a common sense explanation will do?
As Pookie said, maybe the problem is a personal problem with the offendee. At some point, we can’t possibly go hunting for racist ‘false consciousnesses’ every time. There must be a line when reasonable suspicion tips over into an irrational persecution complex - and we are discussing that line in this thread.
But why act under the presumption that the acts/statements are racist until proven otherwise? Why inherently assume that people of your ethnicity are acting on racist impulses and that you will believe that until they qualify every move made or statement said?
I am positive it is not all in their heads ‘all the time’ - but some of the time, yes, which is what critics here are suggesting, absolutely. No one hear has suggested it is in minorities’ heads’ all the time - so stop pretending this is so.
Yes, and that is exactly the discussion are having right now - to argue that yes, in this case right here right now, it is in your head and it is not the real deal.
That is the entire point of the conversation, Vroom - to state plainly that such a mindset is unsupportable, that the presumptions are wrong, and that they shouldn’t do it for a variety of reasons.
[quote]thunderbolt23 wrote:
That is the entire point of the conversation, Vroom - to state plainly that such a mindset is unsupportable, that the presumptions are wrong, and that they shouldn’t do it for a variety of reasons.
[/quote]
This where your train leaves the tracks. You can’t just dismiss the readily observed issues that people face on a daily basis and expect to remain credible.
I may agree that it is better if people can get around these issues, and not bother to go looking, but then, I haven’t lived a life of recognizing peoples biases and hearing them voiced.
Sometimes people will pull the trigger and get it wrong. It happens.
What is more interesting, is how everyone gets so uptight when there is an arguable case. I mean, minority groups point it out and the discussion could end, but everyone jumps down their throat.
This is an ongoing issue, and it pops up from time to time. Perhaps majority members feel a “anti-majority” bias for voicing opinions… as they don’t realize the bias in their own opinions, and they have gotten hypersensitive to it? Sounds a bit like the pot calling the kettle black when people get uptight about biases.
Do you see it? The anti-bias bias? The hypersensitivity of the majority to being called insensitive and racially biased? The backlash it creates when people try to point it out? Don’t you think it’s a bit ironic?
It costs nothing to realize that people are dealing with this bullshit on a daily basis – which is why they become hypersensitive to it. The problem isn’t that people overreact, this is just the symptom.
Interestingly though, just about everyone has to deal with some type of prejudgment or bias. Young people. Men. Women. Some biases are more acceptable than others… and less dramatic in their effect.
Or, to put it another way, some biases aren’t as often backed by a full-blown “isms”, which adds heft and tangible threat to their impact at times.
[quote]vroom wrote:
No, it’s not. Believe it or not your words often reveal something of your thoughts or feelings. Strange how that works…[/quote]
Haha. I fully expect my words to convey my thoughts and feeling.
What we’re discussing here is the apparent propensity for some people to add to, or distort the meaning of my words so that they may feel offended by them when no offense was ever intended.
She did in fact comment that the doctor was quite good at explaining the situation in layman terms, without drowning her in medical terminology.
That said, I doubt this attitude is limited to this particular word. Unless “articulate” has been recently classified as the “A word” companion to that “N word…” If it has, I’ll admit to having missed the memo.
It seems to be you who’s missing the fact that surprises can be pleasant and a credit to the person causing it.
You’re assuming that any kind of surprise towards a black person is due to a priori reduced expectations based on racial prejudices.
If it ever happens to you, may I suggest your start looking for the white cane?
In business dealings, many words can hide ulterior motives. Here, we’re talking about a patient saying his doctor is eloquent and being branded of racist because of it.
Clearly, an issue can be entirely manufactured to support someone’s victim-like worldview.
Dismissing it is not being blind to it, it simply shows awareness of the true situation.
So you’re saying that it’s impossible to compliment someone from a minority because some other people could have “generally” lowered expectations?
Did someone chop down your thinking tree? Lately, you’ve been dumb as a stump.
So again, there’s basically no way for a white person to compliment someone from a minority?
Why are you bending over backwards to accept as the gospel truth anything put forth by any member of a minority, no matter how stupid or unreasonable?
[quote]pookie wrote:
You’re assuming that any kind of surprise towards a black person is due to a priori reduced expectations based on racial prejudices.
[/quote]
No, I’m not. In reading this thread, it appears that we’ve been told by some members of a minority group that something akin to this does happen.
I’m saying that it’s very hard to tell when it is happening and why any particular comment is given. Stop trying to paint my comments in a direction I’m not taking them. Heck, I’ve even stepped up for Nuthunter here, and you know that I wouldn’t do that lightly.
Anyway, as for your last point, I’ve seen this happen. Although I’m not a minority I’ve seen it happen towards myself as well… where a compliment was actually a put down.
Why are you going to such lengths to assure minorities that it never happens? You’d have to be either stupid or naive to imagine there aren’t any racial biases that can be detected by minorities.
I’ve dealt with minority groups professionally, in the past, when they worked for me. One one occasion, upon leaving, I later received a thank you note. It saddened me because it said that during my tenure there was an environment of “tangible respect.”
If you can’t connect the dots, that’s fine, however, I’m not blind to what I’ve seen going on in the world around me and the difference that people have noticed with how I’ve treated them versus how others have treated them.
When I went to work and live in the states I developed a healthy racial bias or fear, because it was pervasive around me, and the difference, to me, was tangible. I hate that change in myself and I do what I can consciously to not allow myself to be affected by it.
Many people cannot see these issues at all because the attitudes of society around them are like the air they breathe. It is just there.
[quote]vroom wrote:
Sloth wrote:
And, how do you know patients aren’t commenting on well-spoken white doctors? How could you possibly know that?
Ahahahaah! Bwahahahahaaha! Are you fucken serious?
You can’t be serious!
[/quote]
Yes, I’m serious. Are you?
I don’t expect Doctors to be articulate or eloquent. My experience has actually been the oppossite. And, I have lots of experience as a patient. Doctors are generally nifty with medical jargon, but lacking in eloquence/articulation from a layman’s perspective.
Hell, I don’t expect politicians, pundits, and academics to be articulate/eloquent, either. Even when the speaker is supposed to be an ‘educated’ man, I’m not often impressed by their verbal communication.
You’re making the assumption that education level translates to an impressive level of articulation/eloquence, for the listener. Does the speaker sound well educated? Sure, they know lots of big words. But, do they sound articulate? No.
Bush and Kerry, for example. Both with Ivy Leaque educations. It’s argueable how educated either sound when they’re speaking. But, I doubt few would argue that either is a noteably articulate/eloquent speaker.
I noticed this kind of thing early on in life. I’m surprised you haven’t.
It doesn’t require being a minority. I’ve seen TRUE bias. Noone here is denying that racial bias doesn’t exist. I’ve seen enough of it to feel disgusted when someone whores the concept of “racists attitudes” into something absurd.
As a white man, it might be shocking for you to learn that I myself have experienced racism, multiple times. Yes, even to the point of violence.
Exactly what part of my post denied racism’s existence? Further, where in my post am I telling minorities they’re wrong all the time? Or, where I even imply something like that. I’d really like to see you address this. It seems to me we’ve talking about specific instances.
Hypersensitive? Why not call it by name? Racial stereotyping. “I experienced racist attitudes by members of X race. Therefore, I will assume compliments from members of race X spring from challenges to their racial stereotypes.”
[quote]vroom wrote:
No, I’m not. In reading this thread, it appears that we’ve been told by some members of a minority group that something akin to this does happen.[/quote]
No one is arguing that it never happens. We’re arguing against the generalization being made that a white man calling a black man “articulate” is condescending.
If the comments had been made regarding HH’s initial posting, I wouldn’t even be having this discussion. But when asked for clarification, Harris clearly indicated he stood by his generalization. He was later backed up by Prof X.
The question is not about case by case basis.
Anyone questioning HH’s motives for starting the threads wouldn’t have elicited the slightest comment from me.
But someone coming in and generalizing that any white man calling a black man “eloquent” or “articulate” is being condescending and/or racist doesn’t fly.
On a case by case basis? Ok. As a sweeping general rule? No, sorry.
That saddens you?
And you know that how? Or are you also reading a lot more into a simple compliment than you should be?
And that means that you must accept anything said by a minority without ever having the right to question it? Or the audacity to point out they’re wrong?
[quote]vroom wrote:
(text)[/quote]
What you continually miss is that my focus has been on the posters here.
Nowhere have I stated that racist problems no longer exist or racial attitudes no longer affect ethnic minorities.
The point is dirt simple, stated again - at some point there is a line between reasonable suspicion stemming from experience and the plain old wannabe-victim persecution complex.
Now, you have established yourself as Captain Sensitive, going on and on about your empathy with minorities and their collective experiences. Fine.
But, and I’ll quote Pookie: And that means that you must accept anything said by a minority without ever having the right to question it? Or the audacity to point out they’re wrong?
Why is saying “you’ve crossed the line into irrationality” to an ethnic minority so taboo to you? Can you not question this idiotic presumption on the table that ethnic minorities will assume people not of their ethnic background are acting in a racist way, no matter how nice it is on its face (a compliment)?
Vroom, you have become the classic case of the man whose mind is so open, his brain has fallen out. Even with their history and experience, ethnic minorities are not beyond being challenged on something they claim is racist.