[quote]The center estimates that there were 6.8 marriages per 1,000 people in 2009, after a rate of 7.1 and 7.3 marriages per 1,000 people in 2008 and 2007, respectively.
In the states for which data were available, there were 3.4 divorces per 1,000 people in 2009, following rates of 3.5 divorces per 1,000 people in 2008 and 3.6 divorces per 1,000 people in 2007.[/quote]
That would mean about half get divorced in this country.
According to some of you, this is because they all simply didn’t know each other enough.[/quote]
There are many reasons why a marriage would fail. I think we can all agree on the following though:
Selfishness
Inconsiderateness
Betrayal (physical or emotional)
Incompatibility*
*Not the incompatibility that comes because of the first 3 things, but incompatibility that stems from not really knowing your partner beforehand.
The first three can be avoided only by work done inside of one’s own life, preferably BEFORE marriage is even considered; however they are never completely finished tasks. The last one can be avoided in many if not most cases by applying the suggestions and advice given from the collective population of successfully happily married individuals.
[quote]The center estimates that there were 6.8 marriages per 1,000 people in 2009, after a rate of 7.1 and 7.3 marriages per 1,000 people in 2008 and 2007, respectively.
In the states for which data were available, there were 3.4 divorces per 1,000 people in 2009, following rates of 3.5 divorces per 1,000 people in 2008 and 3.6 divorces per 1,000 people in 2007.[/quote]
That would mean about half get divorced in this country.
According to some of you, this is because they all simply didn’t know each other enough.[/quote]
There are many reasons why a marriage would fail. I think we can all agree on the following though:
Selfishness
Inconsiderateness
Betrayal (physical or emotional)
Incompatibility*
*Not the incompatibility that comes because of the first 3 things, but incompatibility that stems from not really knowing your partner beforehand.[/quote]
Wait. Stop there, professor marriage. How two people LIVE TOGETHER as a couple when finances, fico scores, taxes and bills link them at the hip is not something you would EVER know about someone until you two are hitched…so are you psychic as well as annoying?
Guy, just because your marriage worked out so far doesn’t mean you have the keys to success of everyone else’s marriage.
Talking to marriage counselors and previously married people makes sense no matter what, but I think you dove into the deep end head first if you are taking the stance that all people have to do is talk to other married people to know how to be happy in marriage.
Marriage is not some carbon copy textbook affair. My parents have been married from the start and even though they are at retirement age now, there are STILL days my dad pisses my mom off to the point that they call me like I used to call my grandmother.
Marriage is a living breathing entity and doubtfully any two are just alike.
But you keep up those mental images where you think you stand as the truth and the light of marriage.
I think this would work better for you if you had a symbol or something…you know, like Batman.
Wait. Stop there, professor marriage. How two people LIVE TOGETHER as a couple when finances, fico scores, taxes and bills link them at the hip is not something you would EVER know about someone until you two are hitched…so are you psychic as well as annoying? [/quote]
Just so you are aware, I did not say that those are the ONLY reasons. I just said that they were some of the reasons. You are right, there are things that you are going to find out about your mate once you get married. Even more so, if you have never lived together beforehand. However, by making in a priority to always treat the other person with respect, always consider the other persons feelings on a matter, always put the interests of the other person ahead of your own, you will go a long way in solving a lot of the “bumps” that occur when two people become one.
I would dare to argue that many if not most of the big issues that could lead to a divorce stemmed from some form of selfishness.
I appreciate what was brought about about communication as well. That is a must. Open, honest, yet tactful communication should be there. Sometimes, it is easier not to talk, but that doesn’t mean you shouldn’t.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Kids aren’t stupid. This isn’t about “choosing” to love. This is about not dealing with a major issue all in favor of sweeping it under the rug simply because you think the kids are better off with both parents in the house whether they can actually trust each other or not.
[/quote]
From personal experience, successfully hiding dysfunction from the kids doesn’t mean they aren’t aware of it. For me, when all the dirty secrets in my family came tumbling out of the closet (I was 25), I spent a year alone going “Holy shit! That explains so much! That explains THIS event and THAT event…”
No one is a good enough actor to raise children in a marriage that exists “for the sake of the children” and have those kids grow up completely right.
[/quote]
How would it have been for you if your parents had split, your Mom remarried and some dude was beating the crap out of you all the time? Or maybe he’s a pedophile, or maybe not a pedophile but by the time you were 16 you were a younger hotter version of your mom and he had no scruples?
Or, forget that, what if he was a fairly decent guy but because he didn’t love you quite the same as if you were his own he didn’t check on you by the pool (or insert any suitable similar circumstance you like) and your life ended?
You haven’t shared details so I can’t say if your parents made the right decision or not. I stand by my conviction that when children are involved the parents should make every effort to make it work.
I agreed with what she wrote…both times now. Why would I need to explain anything any further than that?
She’s right. You’re wrong. There have been several people in this thread acting like their marriages are so airtight that should a divorce happen, they know with 100% certainty that their significant other won’t screw them over in court.
That line of thinking isn’t even rational.
You have decided to make this personal…even though I keep avoiding some all out attack on you that most here should know I am capable of. In other words, I am going very easy on you at the moment because your ideas put forth so far suck…but arguing back and forth with irrationality is just a waste of time.
Bottom line, neither you nor anyone else here can predict the future no matter how well you THINK you know someone else.
Therefore, it makes sense to protect your assets.
It makes ZERO SENSE not to.[/quote]
Professor X, dear man, does it not occur to you that I, too, am pulling my punches? But if you want to go ahead and let me have it, please feel free. I assure you I won’t crumble.
I suspect, though, that you will come out of it looking foolish, not I.
I’m not sure I’ve stated this clearly: I have nothing against prenups. Tear your ass! But careful attention to your own character and any prospective partner’s will go much further in protecting you, in my opinion.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Kids aren’t stupid. This isn’t about “choosing” to love. This is about not dealing with a major issue all in favor of sweeping it under the rug simply because you think the kids are better off with both parents in the house whether they can actually trust each other or not.
[/quote]
From personal experience, successfully hiding dysfunction from the kids doesn’t mean they aren’t aware of it. For me, when all the dirty secrets in my family came tumbling out of the closet (I was 25), I spent a year alone going “Holy shit! That explains so much! That explains THIS event and THAT event…”
No one is a good enough actor to raise children in a marriage that exists “for the sake of the children” and have those kids grow up completely right.
[/quote]
How would it have been for you if your parents had split, your Mom remarried and some dude was beating the crap out of you all the time? Or maybe he’s a pedophile, or maybe not a pedophile but by the time you were 16 you were a younger hotter version of your mom and he had no scruples?
Or, forget that, what if he was a fairly decent guy but because he didn’t love you quite the same as if you were his own he didn’t check on you by the pool (or insert any suitable similar circumstance you like) and your life ended?
You haven’t shared details so I can’t say if your parents made the right decision or not. I stand by my conviction that when children are involved the parents should make every effort to make it work.[/quote]
Ooooooh, is this a game!!!???
I mean…what if two people get divorced and the mother gets remarried to an Oil Tycoon in Texas who treats his stepson like his own kid and sets up a scholarship for him that he can’t touch until the age of 18 all while spending every moment he can raising him into a strong dependable and honorable young man…oh, and his real dad marries a Russian supermodel who, upon becoming world famous and gaining 1 million dollars of liquid assets quits her job so she can spend more time loving the kids!!!
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Kids aren’t stupid. This isn’t about “choosing” to love. This is about not dealing with a major issue all in favor of sweeping it under the rug simply because you think the kids are better off with both parents in the house whether they can actually trust each other or not.
[/quote]
From personal experience, successfully hiding dysfunction from the kids doesn’t mean they aren’t aware of it. For me, when all the dirty secrets in my family came tumbling out of the closet (I was 25), I spent a year alone going “Holy shit! That explains so much! That explains THIS event and THAT event…”
No one is a good enough actor to raise children in a marriage that exists “for the sake of the children” and have those kids grow up completely right.
[/quote]
How would it have been for you if your parents had split, your Mom remarried and some dude was beating the crap out of you all the time? Or maybe he’s a pedophile, or maybe not a pedophile but by the time you were 16 you were a younger hotter version of your mom and he had no scruples?
Or, forget that, what if he was a fairly decent guy but because he didn’t love you quite the same as if you were his own he didn’t check on you by the pool (or insert any suitable similar circumstance you like) and your life ended?
You haven’t shared details so I can’t say if your parents made the right decision or not. I stand by my conviction that when children are involved the parents should make every effort to make it work.[/quote]
Ooooooh, is this a game!!!???
I mean…what if two people get divorced and the mother gets remarried to an Oil Tycoon in Texas who treats his stepson like his own kid and sets up a scholarship for him that he can’t touch until the age of 18 all while spending every moment he can raising him into a strong dependable and honorable young man…oh, and his real dad marries a Russian supermodel who, upon becoming world famous and gaining 1 million dollars of liquid assets quits her job so she can spend more time loving the kids!!!
See, play time is fun![/quote]
The rosy scenario does happen sometimes. Unfortunately the other scenario is more common because the love isn’t there.
Are two people who bail on each other after four years the type of schmucks that the successfully married people here are speaking of when they write about truly knowing their partners and developing strong connections before tying the knot?
[/quote]
Wait…you are now claiming anyone who gets divorced in that time frame is a schmuck? They could have been a couple for 10 years previous but maybe the marriage itself doesn’t work out.
Some of you really think like this?[/quote]
If it means that much to you, I really have no idea whether or not a woman would be looking for a serious payout after 4 years of marriage. That being said, I would love to know what it was about being married that caused a couple going strong enough after 10 years to choose that option to split so soon into it. I would like to think that such situations are rare compared to the couples who get hitched after a year or two then find that the marriage itself doesn’t work out.
[quote]Professor X wrote:
Does this mean you believe people who get divorced got divorced because of the reason that they didn’t know each other well enough?[/quote]
Not always. A quick, painless Google search will highlight the various common themes behind a a couple’s decision to divorce.
[quote]dianab wrote:
Sorry, if you are an honest person then faking happiness at home ain’t gonna work.
Staying together for the kids is a terrible idea, kids aren’t stupid and they pick up on things pretty fast.[/quote]
^ This. Kids aren’t stupid at all. You think they don’t know what’s going on? Wrong. What kind of example, as Dr. P pointed out, is to show kids that a “happy” marriage is two people who never speak to each other and show obvious contempt for each other? But hey if you want your kids to think a loving marriage is two people who don’t speak and one or both are cheating, going for it. They’ll thank you later.[/quote]
I agree! I made this mistake myself - staying too long in a bad marriage thinking it was the right thing to do for my kid. I finally woke up and realized how can it be right to show your kid that’s it OK to have a marriage where one person treats the other person with contempt a good amount of the time?
[quote]The center estimates that there were 6.8 marriages per 1,000 people in 2009, after a rate of 7.1 and 7.3 marriages per 1,000 people in 2008 and 2007, respectively.
In the states for which data were available, there were 3.4 divorces per 1,000 people in 2009, following rates of 3.5 divorces per 1,000 people in 2008 and 3.6 divorces per 1,000 people in 2007.[/quote]
That would mean about half get divorced in this country.
According to some of you, this is because they all simply didn’t know each other enough.[/quote]
It’s really not surprising, we are the most materialistic society in the world, and we also happen to lead the way in womens equality, those two things put massive strains on something traditional like marriage. Especially since Marriage was for almost the enitire history of the institution, between a working man and a homemaker wife who had less rights and priveledges, anywhere in the world. I’m predicting that marriage will make a comeback, but it won’t be until the LAW is updated to reflect the current realities of our society.
When people like you are no longer worried about getting your ass handed to you in court, you will let your guard down and find love for the right reasons. Also someone will love you for the right reasons, they won’t do it looking for a meal ticket, because they know, thats not how the law works anymore.
I just wanted to follow that post up with two other points.
X, I understand where you are coming from I really do, but you are asking us, or you are asking SOMEONE for a 100% Guarantee that a divorce won’t happen. Thats as impossible as me telling you you won’t get hit by a car, get cancer, have a heart attack or get diabetes. BUT, even though those other bad things happen with regular frequency to people in the US, you don’t lock yourself in your house and never come out to avaoid them, you take reasonable steps to minimize your risk.
Thats all a person can do, and what we are trying to say is that Getting married for the right reasosns and really getting to know your partner is a good way to do that, better in fact than a prenup, cause a prenup doesn’t prevent a divorce, it only attempts to keep your “stuff” if the divorce is inevitable.
Secondly I disagree with OE on the point of staying in a marriage JUST for the kids. Again, open communication is key in everything we do. People don’t get mad if they don’t get surprised. Or at least they don’t get AS mad. Be honest with your spouse and your kids, you will teach them how to be better people, which is ultimately what your job is. Kids develop problems not because of a split home, but because the parents lie to them. Thats just fucked.
I personally think that divorce is a pretty normal occurrence and doesn’t need to be treated as the massive failure that it gets treated as. I wonder if people’s expectations were a bit more realistic and were more accepting of the idea that most people will have a couple of serious relationships in their life and not just one ‘soul mate.’
I don’t think it’s necessarily going in to the relationship setting it up for failure as much as it’s a way of preventing so much bitterness if things do go wrong if you remove the unrealistic expectation of no-divorce. I do think a lot of the pain comes from people blaming each other for the failure and if they just accepted it was time to move on things could go much smoother.
But my point of view is that divorce is a GOOD thing when people are no longer in love and all that, whether they have kids or not.
I think people should be in it because they want to be in it, not for some non-existent greater cause of putting in the most time and suffering through because that’s ‘what good people do.’
I was never arguing that one can predict “with 100% accuracy” whether or not their marriage will fail.
It isn’t even really about a couple “changing” in that they develop different goals and perspectives on life.
The point is whether or not you can know someone well enough and develop a strong enough connection with them that, short of completely fucking them over in some capacity, they would be “out to destroy you” (Professor X’s words) when it comes time to divorce. I wouldn’t expect one spouse to turn the other cheek and meekly skulk out of a relationship after being emotionally torn apart in some way… I would just expect that two people who HAVE developed the bond that the people in this thread - you know, the one’s with thriving, successful relationships - claim to have wouldn’t be so malicious when it comes to the well-being of their loved one - like, say, kidnapping the children and falsifying charges of physical abuse for what is, apparently, no real reason whatsoever.
Outside of those worst-case scenarios, I wouldn’t expect a spouse to not be assertive (competitive?) when it comes time to divvy up assets, either. I would just like to think that there WOULD be an element of fairness involved and that one party wouldn’t set out with the aim of “destroying” the other.
The whole “marriage sux because the woman I married - who annoyed the shit out of me by the way - didn’t have the same goals or outlook in life as I do and ended up being a psychotic freakshow” is a ridiculous argument against the institution because it showcases poor judgment when it comes to getting involved in that serious of an arrangement in the first place.[/quote]
This is it exactly. I have no idea whether my relationship will last. I’m a realist. But we share too much for me to ever wish him destroyed. I am the demographic under discussion…I married a man with assets and considerably greater earning power, particularly at the outset (before he funded a lot of school for me). When I say he would accommodate me in a divorce if he cheated I certainly don’t suggest that he would “give me whatever I wanted if he was fucking around on me” (Marvel Girl), I mean that he would be inclined to quickly accept any reasonable settlement I might propose. My assumption about myself is that I would propose a reasonable settlement. (To save attorney fees if for no other reason. I am far more dubious of random divorce lawyers’ interest in my well being than I am of the man I’ve seen handle dozens of moral and emotional challenges. I think he would say the same of me.)
I would imagine that after the initial response (a cataclysmic expression of hurt and venomous outrage) I would probably go to psyops, which is more my style. Along about the time he’s realizing the woman he left me for is a harping nag or lacking in the qualities she presented initially, I will have regrouped. I normally dress modestly (sporty or pretty vs. sexualized) because I don’t particularly like the attention overtly sexy gets and because my job requires modesty. However, I could certainly see myself stopping by to drop something off with Mr. Q while my date waits in the car, all low-cut, pushed up, ass accented, and sporting high heels. Shit, I see myself making a special shopping trip just to do it. I could see stopping by in running tights, just to fuck with him because workout clothes turn him on. That sort of thing. But I don’t see wanting him to support me post-divorce because if he ever fucks me over then fuck HIM, I’ll make my own way and consider myself lucky to be rid of him, while hopefully he finds himself the poorer for having lost me.
mr. popular, just wanted to say that I read your posts with interest and agreed with all but the last. I don’t think it’s at all a given that all men would act as Tiger has. I find burgers and fries and banana splits delightful and I want them and I am biologically programmed to eat them…but I largely forgo them because I want something I value more highly than tasty food in abundance.
Debra, I agree to a point. I think among the unreasonable expectations people have is the expectation that they should be breathless with infatuation for years at a time and if they’re not they should seek a new partner. I don’t know a single person who left one relationship for another who is happier in the new one.
Wherever you go there you are, and all. Everyone is an ass sometimes, and strong character traits cause both positives and negatives for the people living with them. So I think people give up too easily, looking for happiness outside of themselves when they should be working on it from the inside.
So in my perfect world people would be more giving, more patient (admittedly not a trait with which I’m blessed), and as you said, more realistic. Because once you’ve left the father or mother of your children you’ve got step issues to deal with on top of all the stress of getting a relationship cemented. What a shame for the (many) people who realize later that #1 wasn’t really that bad, and in fact was a little easier to deal with than #2 and his or her bratty ass kids.
I agree that a bad marriage is not one that should be kept. Kids should not grow up with bitter conflict OR icy silence. OE is right that kids are most often abused by the romantic partners of their parents, but I think that has more to do with parents serially foolish choices than anything else. I can promise that no child of mine would ever be punched or thrown down stairs by my love interest.
I’d also like to say I don’t see what’s so hard about loving someone. I don’t mean faking it, I mean genuinely loving them. I mentioned I’ve have 7 long term relationships and I’d say I could have been perfectly happy with 5 of them. My wife is the best of them all but that was luck. The main reason I’m with her is timing. If the order had been shuffled I’d be with whoever i met after about the age of 25-26.
Everybody has flaws as well as good qualities. If you dwell on the flaws you end up hating them. If you focus more on their good qualities you keep loving them. All i need is someone who is smart, affectionate, good looking, generally a good person and respects me, and I will be happy. I don’t think it’s very hard to find those qualities in a woman.
People end up destroying each other over the silliest things that escalate to irreparable rifts. Very sad.
[quote]on edge wrote:
I’d also like to say I don’t see what’s so hard about loving someone. I don’t mean faking it, I mean genuinely loving them. I mentioned I’ve have 7 long term relationships and I’d say I could have been perfectly happy with 5 of them. My wife is the best of them all but that was luck. The main reason I’m with her is timing. If the order had been shuffled I’d be with whoever i met after about the age of 25-26.
Everybody has flaws as well as good qualities. If you dwell on the flaws you end up hating them. If you focus more on their good qualities you keep loving them. All i need is someone who is smart, affectionate, good looking, generally a good person and respects me, and I will be happy. I don’t think it’s very hard to find those qualities in a woman.
People end up destroying each other over the silliest things that escalate to irreparable rifts. Very sad.[/quote]
I would say you are the exception to the rule Edge. You seem thankful for it as you should be. I’m glad for you and your wife.
