[quote]johnflower wrote:
[quote]Depression Boy wrote:
Agreed. These movements probably have value for a grappler or gymnast to build some static strength in 3D spanning the 3 planes rather than simply the saggital plane. If you’re looking for a career in law enforcement to overpower perps or man the ER having to control a 300 pound addict who explodes without warning on arrival, then i see no reason not to incorporate these movements. If you’re a regular joe who wants to join a weekend “fight club” and slug it out with other untrained schmoes, then yeah, some kettlebell work and odd movements like the bent press will likely give you a serious (and i mean serious) edge over other office goers.
That said, bent pressing 55 kilos is basically an “easy” way for someone with your build to put up 115 pounds with a single arm, so if that indirectly helps your overhead pressing allowing you to move heavier weights more smoothly - then yeah, I see the value in building size. The focus today is building raw strength in the main muscle groups using foundational lifts where you move heavy weights for reps in the saggital plane - carryover to general daily activities is not the focus. For athletes, sports specific drills after a raw strength-based GPP in the offseason are usually relied on to help the athlete “learn to transfer” his raw strength to the field.
OP, I think you should post these ideas on Thibaudeau’s forum since he has experience across the training spectrum (size/strength/power/speed) and trained bodybuilders as well as athletes in different sports.
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Bulk of the lifts done in the saggital plane. That makes perfect sense. Walking, running, swimming, cycling, pushing and pulling heavy things, are all done in this plane. Nicely phrased.
Below are some comments for public scrutiny. Feel free to rip them to bits :).
Bent Pressing is the only multiplanar lift I do (except the odd Get Up). Most of my training is squatting, cleaning, pressing, and carrying, and other lifts that are saggital in nature. I talk about BP a little more because it is a pet lift, and controversial.
I agree that the Bent Press is the only way for me to move 55kg with one hand. It isn’t easy. Alan Calvert (an expert in the days when 200lb+ was common) wrote in Super Strength:-
“If you will try to imagine yourself with your body bent over that far, and the same weight supported on the up-raised right arm, you will commence to realize the enormous amount of strength in the back, the sides, the arms, and the shoulders, which a man must have before he can make a bent-press with that weight. You cannot make a bent-press until you do learn the style; but don’t fall into the error of thinking that style alone is necessary.”
He suggests the ratio between the Bent Press and One Arm Press is 2.5. This means I can use technique improvement to drive progress up until I reach about 65kg. At which point strength will be the major factor. To other lifts I have found the transfer to be improved lockout of the elbow and better control of the scapula in quick lifts. Outside of the gym I’ve noticed grip improvement, better balance (this surprised me), and lifting is easier in awkward situations e.g. reaching from the drivers seat in a car to the seat behind and moving something heavy. Some of those benefits may be as much from getting the bar to the shoulder as they are from pressing. I haven’t had a chance to see how it might help in a combat sport, but Alan Calvert thought it helpful for wrestlers and Arthur Saxon had a good reputation as a wrestler. For defence… I hope like hell I don’t have to find out, and avoiding walking through town alone on a Saturday at 2am will help more.
I don’t have sport, or vocational, demand for my training. Vanity. I was using Maslow’s Hierarchy of Needs to drive my aesthetic sensibility, but as pointed out, in a post above, it poorly matches my goals. I have a desire to develop strength, power, size, and have latent athletic potential. Bodybuilding in the literal sense of the term.
Perhaps this thread could be moved again? It was moved out of Bodybuilding to this forum.[/quote]
First, post on Thibaudeau’s forum.
Second, for your goals - you’d still be waaaay better off building a base of strength in the saggital plane (and some muscle which you badly need so you can someday bent press 100 kilos without snapping your spine) by training 4-5 basic movements in the 3-5 rep range, a few auxiliary movements in the 6-10 rep range and accessory work for smaller muscle groups in the higher rep ranges.
You don’t have to stop bent pressing. Find a way to work it in as a basic move (like the push press) or as an assistance movement for overhead work. If anything, the increase in raw strength (and muscle) will carryover to your bent press allowing you to handle way heavier weights down the line.
