Well, I pulled the trigger and bought it, so I’ll let you know how it goes.
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Ben shows how to do anterior tib raises, while leaning backward against a wall, and raising toes. To make it more difficult, move feet further away. The hip flexor movements can be done with some ankle weights, and if you want to add more, use a voodoo band to strap on (not strap-on) the lower leg. I was able to use two velcro adjustable leg weights, and added a 3# db, making it 13 #.
You’re over a month in - what’s your initial impression?
My initial impression is that it is a well thought out program that attacks the common areas that cause knee pain. I know from my PT sessions that some of the movements are ones I probably don’t need, but I’m still doing them. The program takes longer than advertised if you do the optional stretching, which I have mostly been doing. Adding that stretching in means the program ends up taking between 40 and 60 minutes to complete, depending on the day.
I’ve seen some measurable progress in my ankle mobility, but so far have not noticed any improvement in my knees. You’re not supposed to progress in the program until you can do certain exercises completely pain free. Since I’ve had both orthos and PTs tell me that doing an exercise at 2-3 on the pain scale is okay, I suspect this particular advice is given more for liability limiting reasons than anything else. Nevertheless, I’m following it and so have remained stuck on one of the fairly early steps in the zero program (the Patrick step).
I’m going to give the zero program the full 12 weeks and then re-evaluate.
I have also bought the program and I am on week 4 of zero.
So far so good. I actually do most of the sessions in between sets of my “other” program. Probably not what is recommended, but I had already had a 6 week lay off without lifting and I needed to get back into it.
I do the stretching every second day, and this has got me excited about flexibility. My knees have always been decent, although I still get a niggling pain in my dodgy knee now and again if I’m not resting enough. I think I will implement these movements for the rest of my life. Backward walks/sleds and tib raises feel so good.
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I’m now a little over two months in. My ankle mobility has continued to improve and for the first time in my life, was able to pass the wall ankle dorsiflexion test with my right ankle. I have done tons of stretching for my calves over the last 3 years and never got to the point where I could pass this test – I got very close but never actually passed it. I suspect the change is due more to the training of the tibialis than to the stretching in the program.
The program has changed a bit and now I’m getting through the stretching days a bit quicker, but still not in 30 minutes. I’ve also finally progressed to some heavily regressed ATG split squats, so we’ll see how those go.
Oddly my knees seem to feel better in every day life than they did before this program but perhaps a bit worse with some of the leg exercises I was doing in the gym. I can’t quite figure out why that might be the case, except it may be that the combo of the kneesovertoes program plus the leg exercises is a little too much for them. My post bike ride experience also seems to be improving – I did a little over 27 miles yesterday with some climbing and normally that would make both knees pretty sore, which they are not.
I’ll update again in another month.
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I’ve now “finished” the 12 week Zero Program. I say “finished” because I’m not really done with it – I’m going to keep using it.
My knees are about the same as they were when I posted my last update, though I have been able to progress my ATG split squats some. One of the coaches suggested using flossing and what they call VMO squats (I’ve seen these called cyclist squats too) as part of the exercises leading to the ATG split squats. I’ve done a ton of flossing over the years and so was a bit skeptical this would make a difference, but it does seem to have helped get me into a better state so I can complete the ATG split squats. Certainly not something I would have tried w/o nudging from the coaches – they had to tell me 3-4 times before I actually tried it.
The only other thing I’ve noticed is that when I do over do things and flare my left knee up a bit, it seems to bounce back more quickly than it used to. Thankfully I’ve not flared it up more than a couple of times in the last 12 weeks, so it remains to be seen whether my impression is real.
To sum up, I’ve found the program worthwhile enough to continue for at least another 12 weeks. I’m still not seeing much improvement in the exercises I’d like to be doing for legs in the gym but have accepted the fact that 1) this is going to be a slow process for me and 2) that the improvements I’m seeing outside of the gym are FAR more important than what’s going on in the gym (it is really nice to go up and down stairs with only mild discomfort).
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@theBird are you still going with the program? I’m bailing on the paid version – the coaching has turned out to be pretty worthless – but will probably keep doing some or all of the exercises.
I’m dealing with similar kneeproblems ,and also came across kotguys yt stuff. i’m still not sure if i should subscribe to him. i’m currently using his free stuff and not sure if i’m using it right. what where the most impactfull stuff you did to get these results. i can do ATG Split Squats almost painfree but can’t do nordics without cramping or cannot do sissy squats without pain.
My goals are to Squat painfree again, so i want to sissy squat and nordic curls painfree first.
In your situation, I would sign up for the program or at least buy the book on Amazon. Neither are all that expensive. If you did the coaching, you could probably stop after a month or two once your form is down on the exercises. I found the coaching inconsistent but it was still initially useful and having the program all laid out is definitely useful. In Zero, for example, the exercises all build on each other so that by the time you get to doing the ATG split squats, you are very warmed up and ready for them.
There are parts of the hamstring that only do knee flexion and do not contribute to hip extension. You have to do some form of knee flexion to train them.
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GHRs are loadable. You can load the eccentric Supra-maximally if that’s what you wanted to do. Weight vest and a pvc pipe to help you get back up would be a way to do it by yourself.
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True
Do you know what your knee problems are? I like the ATG system for a lot of things, but I don’t think it’s a panacea.
I was talking to a football player (that’s soccer for some folks) and he’s been doing ATG with very little success but his problem is that the articular cartilage in the knee is very worn down.
Im convinced KOT training helps people who hadn’t been doing direct quadriceps training (and deep flexion/dorsiflexion) prior.
There’s nothing magical about it, it’s just a gap in some people’s physical preparation.
At the end of the day, load is load, and thats exactly what some peopl need (regardless of how they get it)
I’d had that thought before. For some people, due to age, injuries, etc., their knees might just be too far gone to ever get “fixed” very much by certain movements/techniques. I’m interested in this guy’s work but I’ve wondered how well it fits someone with, like your acquaintance, who’s lost most of their cartilage, or someone with arthritis.
AFAIK people with arthritis should definitely stay active through as large a range of motion as possible.
And, I might be mistaken but, you won’t grow back cartilage in the joints. Regrettably, there’s stuff that’s irreversible damage. Maybe @Koestrizer or @j4gga2 have learned something else but as an example I’ve been taught that there’s a point of elongation of (for instance) ligaments wherein they’ll permanently deform. In my language it’s called something that’d translate into moving into the plasticity zone of the tissue. It’ll return towards it original length but never get back to it.
We didn’t go into it in depth but it seems as if to me that paints a poor picture of traditional flexibility training within the dancing- and martial arts worlds wherein teacher’s sometimes hands on force their students in a stretch into a deeper position.
I am not familiar with the man’s work myself. However this gives me a good idea of what I think about his reasoning:
Movement and exercise is one of the four pillars of arthritis management/ treatment and I agree with that statement
but ultimately neither strength training nor any other intervention (including all sorts of injections!) Will “heal the joint”. It’s about managing symptoms and slowing/ halting the process of decline.
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I’ll chime in again here since I have cartilage damage in both knees. One ortho diagnosed me with patellofemoral pain syndrome and another with chondromalacia patellae. My MRIs say there’s arthritis in both knees.
Prior to starting the KOT exercises, I was avoiding things that put me through a full knee bend (hamstrings on calves) and while I was working on my ankle mobility, I wasn’t really doing anything to strengthen my tibialis. My progress has been slow but my knees are noticeably better than they were prior to starting the KOT exercises, especially in my daily life. Prior to starting the KOT exercises, I’d done several years of PT and had same day stem cell injections. It’s all helped. I don’t think the KOT exercises have healed anything but I do feel like I’ve conditioned my knees to deal better with a more extended range of motion. If nothing else, I have access to much more pain free range of motion, especially in my left knee, than I did before. I suspect my progress has been slower on the program because my issue is damage to the cartilage.
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