Assuming there is no negative recourse at all ever with this program regarding non-participation, how do you think the heathcare system will improve??? look at canada, many of their citizens come here for health care! where will we go? Europe? More government and LESS freedom is NEVER the answer. What about when the next mandate is something more invasive to you personally? give the gov’t an inch they take a mile. Patriot act… for example
BrianHanson,
You are, as usual, incorrect. What you’ve posted is NOT the law but one man’s opinion. On the other hand I have actually posted the part of the law which absolutely talks about fines and then more severe punishment, including imprisonment, if those fines are not paid.
Naturally, the surrogates are out trying to soft sell this mess to the people. But even then people like Nancy Pelosi and Joe Biden have never denied that there will be fines. They’ve side stepped the question but have never out right denied it. And what happens when a fine is not paid?
Imprisonment, as the US government is not going to levy a fine unless they are ready to back it up with prosecution. If you think that’s the case point out even one instance where the federal government has fined someone without any intention of collecting.
Tell me, is it your opinion that the fine (which you’ve already admitted to) which will be levied will just go away if the person decides not to pay it? Is that what you are asserting? If so that is ludicrous and very naive of you to believe.
Through Obamacare the US government is mandating insurance coverage everyone! And that is one of the reasons that it is before the Supreme Court as I write this. As it is unconstitutional for the government of the United States to FORCE anyone to purchase insurance.
My gosh just admit you’re wrong and walk away.
[quote]andy.steven wrote:
BRIAN
simple fact is ZEB is right… Listen to the reasoning…
If you are not punished for not paing the fine why in the FUCK would anyone pay it???
the incentive to pay any fine levied by anyone is the concequences… Do you honestly believe that our government would give you a fine year after year and NEVER collect or punish you?
The IRS may not be the enforing arm on this but does it really matter who inforces it? because we all know it will be enfored one way or another whether its with a new agency or an existing agency. [/quote]
Actually, the IRS IS the enforcing arm of the law in this case. And that is one reason that this is nothing more than a taz increase Obama style, not that he’s given up increasing taxes hte old fashion way. And that’s why the US government hired, or is in the process of hiring 4000 more IRS agents! Just what we need huh?
As they say the devil is in the details. Here is what will happen year by year if Obamacare is not struck down by the high court. Notice the many and varied fines which are levied if one does not have health insurance. Again I ask, would the government issue a fine if it was not ready to back it up with jail time should the individual not pay? Why would the government say that the IRS will have authority over those who refuse to pay fines? And what happens when someone does not pay the IRS?
JAIL!
Health Care Reform: Changes Happening in 2014
All US citizens will be forced to have health insurance coverage considered acceptable by the US Government or else pay a fine of $95 in 2014, $325 in 2015, $695 in 2016 (capped at 2.5% of AGI). All of the fines are per person per year except for families have a cap on the total fine of $2,250 and the fine amount for children is half of the adult fine.
Eligibility standards are implemented for newly formed health care exchanges.
Businesses with 50 or more employees will face a fine of either $2,000 or $3,000 per employee for not offering health insurance coverage.
Group health insurance plans have a maximum waiting period of 90 days.
Health insurance companies are prohibited from using an individual?s health status to issue a policy or renew a policy. All pre-existing conditions must be covered and higher health insurance rates cannot be levied because of health, gender, etc.
The eligibility standards for Medicaid will be changed to 133% of poverty for those who are not considered elderly.
New annual fees will be levied on all health insurance providers based on an insurance companies market share and whose total premiums exceed $25 million.
Health Care Reform: Changes Happening in 2018
The “Cadillac” health insurance plan tax will kick in. An excise tax will be levied on all employer provided health insurance plans costing more than $27,500 for families and $10,200 for individuals (with increased limits for those considered to be in ?high risk? professions).
Here is the link decide for yourselves exactly how dangerous this law would be:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]andy.steven wrote:
BRIAN
simple fact is ZEB is right… Listen to the reasoning…
If you are not punished for not paing the fine why in the FUCK would anyone pay it???
the incentive to pay any fine levied by anyone is the concequences… Do you honestly believe that our government would give you a fine year after year and NEVER collect or punish you?
The IRS may not be the enforing arm on this but does it really matter who inforces it? because we all know it will be enfored one way or another whether its with a new agency or an existing agency. [/quote]
Actually, the IRS IS the enforcing arm of the law in this case. And that is one reason that this is nothing more than a taz increase Obama style, not that he’s given up increasing taxes hte old fashion way. And that’s why the US government hired, or is in the process of hiring 4000 more IRS agents! Just what we need huh?
[/quote]
Well that would at least cut unemployment by almost 0.0003%. Do they get credit for at least trying?
Let me put this another way with a very similar instance of the government forcing everyone to enroll in a program. Does the government currently fine and imprison people that drive without insurance? It should give you all the answer you need to take the next logical step.
For the record I am totally anti-government forcing me (or anyone) to take health insurance.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
"The next time President Obama hits the links, it will be his 100th round of golf since coming to the White House. That’s quite a milestone in just 3 1/2 years. As it takes him about six hours to drive to the greens and complete 18 holes, Mr. Obama has spent the equivalent of four months’ worth of work time golfing. Meanwhile, the U.S. economy has been stuck in a sand trap…
By the time Mr. Obama gave this year’s State of the Union address, he had 93 golf games on his scorecard. Unemployment was 8.3 percent, having never gone below 8 percent in his presidency. He took no responsibility for the $15.2 trillion debt or the nation’s credit-rating downgrade. Instead, he called for higher taxes and the “Buffett rule” while hosting the billionaire’s secretary in his guest box for the speech."
[/quote]
I am not defending this clown, but lets be honest, the man is allowed to play golf less than once a week on average in 3.5 years. FFS he is a human, and relaxation might just help him to stop making asshole choices.
I mean, it isn’t like he punches a clock every day. Who is to say he didn’t work until 3am the night before?
This is pointless bullshit, and they tried to drag Bush through the mud the same way with his vacations on the ranch or whatever.[/quote]
And I’m not defending Bush 43 but…
'WASHINGTON: George W. Bush says he quit playing golf in 2003 out of respect for the families of US soldiers killed in the conflict in Iraq. “I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal,” the US President said in an interview…“I don’t want some mom whose son may have recently died to see the commander-in-chief playing golf,” he said. “I feel I owe it to the families to be in solidarity as best as I can with them.”
Mr Bush traced his decision to the August 19, 2003 bombing of UN headquarters in Baghdad, which killed the world body’s top official in Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello.
“I remember when de Mello, who was at the UN, got killed in Baghdad as a result of these murderers taking this good man’s life. And I was playing golf - I think I was in central Texas - and they pulled me off the golf course and I said, it’s just not worth it any more to do.”
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
[quote]SexMachine wrote:
"The next time President Obama hits the links, it will be his 100th round of golf since coming to the White House. That’s quite a milestone in just 3 1/2 years. As it takes him about six hours to drive to the greens and complete 18 holes, Mr. Obama has spent the equivalent of four months’ worth of work time golfing. Meanwhile, the U.S. economy has been stuck in a sand trap…
By the time Mr. Obama gave this year’s State of the Union address, he had 93 golf games on his scorecard. Unemployment was 8.3 percent, having never gone below 8 percent in his presidency. He took no responsibility for the $15.2 trillion debt or the nation’s credit-rating downgrade. Instead, he called for higher taxes and the “Buffett rule” while hosting the billionaire’s secretary in his guest box for the speech."
[/quote]
I am not defending this clown, but lets be honest, the man is allowed to play golf less than once a week on average in 3.5 years. FFS he is a human, and relaxation might just help him to stop making asshole choices.
I mean, it isn’t like he punches a clock every day. Who is to say he didn’t work until 3am the night before?
This is pointless bullshit, and they tried to drag Bush through the mud the same way with his vacations on the ranch or whatever.[/quote]
And I’m not defending Bush 43 but…
'WASHINGTON: George W. Bush says he quit playing golf in 2003 out of respect for the families of US soldiers killed in the conflict in Iraq. “I think playing golf during a war just sends the wrong signal,” the US President said in an interview…“I don’t want some mom whose son may have recently died to see the commander-in-chief playing golf,” he said. “I feel I owe it to the families to be in solidarity as best as I can with them.”
Mr Bush traced his decision to the August 19, 2003 bombing of UN headquarters in Baghdad, which killed the world body’s top official in Iraq, Sergio Vieira de Mello.
“I remember when de Mello, who was at the UN, got killed in Baghdad as a result of these murderers taking this good man’s life. And I was playing golf - I think I was in central Texas - and they pulled me off the golf course and I said, it’s just not worth it any more to do.”[/quote]
well, seeing as he was the one to send them to war, and Obama was the one who (at least in name) brought them home…
Bush spent a shit load of time in Texas and Maine I believe. That is what I was referring to when I said the press was trying to drag him through the mud for.
If Bush can govern from horse back on the ranch, Numbnuts can do it from the golf cart for two hours, for less than once a week on average.
I suppose he shouldn’t be able to take a nice relaxing 20 min shit either?
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
well, seeing as he was the one to send them to war, and Obama was the one who (at least in name) brought them home…
[/quote]
Why would they want to be “brought home?” It’s a professional army of volunteers. I’m sure they were glad to be given the opportunity of taking out Saddam and his regime and killing some IslamoNazis. If not, perhaps they should’ve considered another profession.
Bush worked from his ranch in Texas. It cost the taxpayer less than if he worked from the Whitehouse. Obama’s family fly around the globe with an enormous entourage wasting huge amounts of taxpayers’ money($10 million in 2010 for Michelle’s vacations alone.)
[quote]
If Bush can govern from horse back on the ranch, Numbnuts can do it from the golf cart for two hours, for less than once a week on average.
I suppose he shouldn’t be able to take a nice relaxing 20 min shit either?[/quote]
His record speaks for itself. Obama is a lazy bum.
Dude, there are plenty or actual issues to get on Obama for.
Pointing out how many times he plays golf is…
You know what? Forget it. Focus on whatever you want. Your response to the first part of my post tells me how much I want to continue a conversation with you.
It’s part of a pattern of behaviour from Obama not just golf. And I meant no offense. That’s just my opinion.
Must be part of the socialist party reform act. He can only work 6 (or less) hour days.
Obama to Barbara Walters: ‘…deep down…I think there’s a laziness in me.’
Finally some truth from this man…
Obama: ‘It’s probably from, you know, growing up in Hawaii, and it’s sunny outside and sitting on the beach.’
Yes, Obama’s character flaws are all the fault of the 50th state. Too much sun and ukulele or something. For sure. But don’t worry. When Obama sees himself getting lazy…
Obama: “then I get mad at myself.”
Reassuring.
Certainly never has a President been voted in with such high hopes and done so little. Yet, the main stream liberal media continues to give him and pass. And some, with a straight face, actually blame Bush! I’ve seen many Presidential election cycles and have read about even more and I’ve never seen anything like this.
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Dude, there are plenty or actual issues to get on Obama for.
Pointing out how many times he plays golf is…
You know what? Forget it. Focus on whatever you want. Your response to the first part of my post tells me how much I want to continue a conversation with you.[/quote]
That guy has been studying the presidents daily schedule for years (not just Obama) and I don’t think he is even American. Too much free time I think, maybe he should take up golf too.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
Certainly never has a President been voted in with such high hopes and done so little. [/quote]
This, this, this this this.
Dude is a liar and a snake.
Fuck that clown.
[quote]sufiandy wrote:
[quote]countingbeans wrote:
Dude, there are plenty or actual issues to get on Obama for.
Pointing out how many times he plays golf is…
You know what? Forget it. Focus on whatever you want. Your response to the first part of my post tells me how much I want to continue a conversation with you.[/quote]
That guy has been studying the presidents daily schedule for years (not just Obama) and I don’t think he is even American. Too much free time I think, maybe he should take up golf too.
Err…I do play golf and my handicap is lower than Obama’s.
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Hey ZEB. When I brought up investments I was talking about his blind investment portfolio which obviously wasn’t blind at all. If you have any knowledge about blind investment portfolio’s and Romney’s words, you will see what I’m talking about. If you invest, you know its a scam, Romney called it a scam himself in the past/oldest trick in the book.[/quote]
Why don’t you tell us all about that, every detail as you know it. Then we can all be as informed as you think you are.
You can also tell us all exactly how Mitt Romney dodged the draft? And then you can tell us how Bill Clinton did it. And while you’re at it tell us all about Obama’s past because no one seems to know very much about it. And I think that’s rather odd don’t you?
I am not claiming that the health care in Mass was something that I would prefer. But then I don’t live in that liberal of a state. The people in Mass wanted it and Romney gave it to them. He’s a politician and he was leading a group of more liberal voters. And as I’ve already told you there was no penalty if you didn’t sign up. Obama’s version is far, far worse with fines and jail time if you don’t participate. And as I’ve already told you about 67% of America is against Obamacare. There are other differences as well.
[quote]The deficit inheritance, man that’s just amazing how you feel no blame should be put on G Dubya.
[/quote]
I’m surprised that you would bring this up because the debt has increased more under Obama in 3 1/2 years than during Bush’s 8 years in office.
Here you go take a look at the chart.
Obama is a disaster. Him self said that the Bush debt was “unpatriotic.” If that’s the case Obama should be tried for treason!
You mean the war that John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi and top democrats on the armed services committee signed off on? That war?
And why are you bothering to mention Bush? He’s not running for President? Obama is running for President I have not seen one word of defense for his horrible 3 1/2 years in office. Why are you not bragging about how he’s lowered unemployment? It’s higher now than when your favorite punching bag, Bush was in office. Why are you not bragging about he’s lowered the debt? It’s higher now than when Bush was in office. Why are you not bragging about how he’s closed Gitmo as promised? Because he’s not done any of these things. I gave you a nice long list of his broken promises how come no comment on them? Are you proud of his record? Doesn’t sound like it. When someone starts slamming Bush who has been out of office since 08’ I know that they cannot defend Obama. Very transparent!
I thought it odd that you would attack Bush, but sure I’d much rather have him as President than the failure that currently holds down the job. As for Romney, I’ve talked about his resume many times on T Nation, double major at Harvard, business and law advanced degrees (By the way did you figure out how Obama could afford Harvard yet? Or why Harvard has hidden his grades? Let me know when you crack those two). Romney saved the Olympics which was under water, he made a pile of money in business (A good thing for those of us who admire success). And he was a governor. I don’t see a problem in giving him a chance at the White House. He’s well qualified and has vast executive experience. And that’s something lacking in the three worst Presidents of the modern era, LBJ, Jimmy Carter and now Obama, none had executive experience.
Simple, Obama has failed let’s give someone else a chance. If he can’t do it then we can boot him out as well. Why stick with a proven failure?
Why because Obama has made the dollar strong? LOL PULEEEEZE![/quote]
Nice little trick there trying to turn the stock manipulation into a good thing, you play like a politician yourself :)[/quote]
You said that he was against that rule but plays it anyway. Isn’t that his repsonibility to follow the rules? How am I trying to trick you?
Y[quote]ou will see 
I don’t like your source buddy, and I’m quick to see how you like to spin, that’s cool if you need to do such to convince yourself. The chart has manipulated statistics by the way, fails to mention anything that Obama put forth that increased spending and failed to account for the two wars and the prescription drug plan already in place belong to Bush and not Obama. How about this? I’ll sign up for a phone plan that costs a trillion dollars a year for ten years, only I’ll only have the phone for 2 years after which point you get to take it over, and then I can turn around and say that you are responsible for 8 trillion dollars of debt. Right.[/quote]
Why do you think everything is a trick that doesn’t line up with your hero Obama? You can go to any web site you like Obama has raised the debt 5 Trillion in 3 1/2 years which is double what Bush did in 8 years. That is a fact. You don’t like it? Neither do I!
I accurately pointed out that many fine and even great Presidents never served in the military. And that Romney not serving is not a disqualification for the office. Simple.
[quote]But really, enough with the sophistry charade. If people actually buy what you have to say, they deserve the consequences.
[/quote]
That is actually funny coming from a liberal. You are the guys that had tears in your eyes and a chill up your leg when Obama spoke. four years later after your guy made things worse you are trying to blame Bush for Obama’s failure. I’d say that pretty much sums up the miserable four years that Obama has given you.
Where is the hope and change that you fell for?
What happened?
I WANT YOU TO DEFEND OBAMA’S RECORD AND STOP THE CHICANERY!
But…you can’t do it as it is indefensible.
Now post back something about George Bush…(eye roll)[/quote]
You act as if I’m not critical of Obama. The fact is I’m critical of both guys. Your little dance about draft dodging shows how far you will go to defend YOUR step in hero who can’t seem to do anything wrong.
I don’t THINK things are tricks when I know that they are, and it’s simple to manipulate statistics to try to get a point across, especially when you skew data to make a point. Well if you skew the data to account for changes that Bush implemented, which Obama had no control over you can see things a little differently. I pointed out the two wars and the prescription drug plan, if you factor these in my explanation makes sense for my case that I’m not really trying very hard to argue for anymore, I know I’m not changing your mind… Not sure you know this, but statistics classes are lower division, and formal logic is upper.
That you even attempt to defend his investments, which he himself called a scam is a T-Nation conservative poster classic. You will ardently defend him, all good, he’s your man crush, neither are mine.
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
[quote]ZEB wrote:
[quote]Severiano wrote:
Hey ZEB. When I brought up investments I was talking about his blind investment portfolio which obviously wasn’t blind at all. If you have any knowledge about blind investment portfolio’s and Romney’s words, you will see what I’m talking about. If you invest, you know its a scam, Romney called it a scam himself in the past/oldest trick in the book.[/quote]
Why don’t you tell us all about that, every detail as you know it. Then we can all be as informed as you think you are.
You can also tell us all exactly how Mitt Romney dodged the draft? And then you can tell us how Bill Clinton did it. And while you’re at it tell us all about Obama’s past because no one seems to know very much about it. And I think that’s rather odd don’t you?
I am not claiming that the health care in Mass was something that I would prefer. But then I don’t live in that liberal of a state. The people in Mass wanted it and Romney gave it to them. He’s a politician and he was leading a group of more liberal voters. And as I’ve already told you there was no penalty if you didn’t sign up. Obama’s version is far, far worse with fines and jail time if you don’t participate. And as I’ve already told you about 67% of America is against Obamacare. There are other differences as well.
[quote]The deficit inheritance, man that’s just amazing how you feel no blame should be put on G Dubya.
[/quote]
I’m surprised that you would bring this up because the debt has increased more under Obama in 3 1/2 years than during Bush’s 8 years in office.
Here you go take a look at the chart.
Obama is a disaster. Him self said that the Bush debt was “unpatriotic.” If that’s the case Obama should be tried for treason!
You mean the war that John Kerry, Nancy Pelosi and top democrats on the armed services committee signed off on? That war?
And why are you bothering to mention Bush? He’s not running for President? Obama is running for President I have not seen one word of defense for his horrible 3 1/2 years in office. Why are you not bragging about how he’s lowered unemployment? It’s higher now than when your favorite punching bag, Bush was in office. Why are you not bragging about he’s lowered the debt? It’s higher now than when Bush was in office. Why are you not bragging about how he’s closed Gitmo as promised? Because he’s not done any of these things. I gave you a nice long list of his broken promises how come no comment on them? Are you proud of his record? Doesn’t sound like it. When someone starts slamming Bush who has been out of office since 08’ I know that they cannot defend Obama. Very transparent!
I thought it odd that you would attack Bush, but sure I’d much rather have him as President than the failure that currently holds down the job. As for Romney, I’ve talked about his resume many times on T Nation, double major at Harvard, business and law advanced degrees (By the way did you figure out how Obama could afford Harvard yet? Or why Harvard has hidden his grades? Let me know when you crack those two). Romney saved the Olympics which was under water, he made a pile of money in business (A good thing for those of us who admire success). And he was a governor. I don’t see a problem in giving him a chance at the White House. He’s well qualified and has vast executive experience. And that’s something lacking in the three worst Presidents of the modern era, LBJ, Jimmy Carter and now Obama, none had executive experience.
Simple, Obama has failed let’s give someone else a chance. If he can’t do it then we can boot him out as well. Why stick with a proven failure?
Why because Obama has made the dollar strong? LOL PULEEEEZE![/quote]
Nice little trick there trying to turn the stock manipulation into a good thing, you play like a politician yourself :)[/quote]
You said that he was against that rule but plays it anyway. Isn’t that his repsonibility to follow the rules? How am I trying to trick you?
Y[quote]ou will see I don’t like your source buddy, and I’m quick to see how you like to spin, that’s cool if you need to do such to convince yourself. The chart has manipulated statistics by the way, fails to mention anything that Obama put forth that increased spending and failed to account for the two wars and the prescription drug plan already in place belong to Bush and not Obama. How about this? I’ll sign up for a phone plan that costs a trillion dollars a year for ten years, only I’ll only have the phone for 2 years after which point you get to take it over, and then I can turn around and say that you are responsible for 8 trillion dollars of debt. Right.[/quote]
Why do you think everything is a trick that doesn’t line up with your hero Obama? You can go to any web site you like Obama has raised the debt 5 Trillion in 3 1/2 years which is double what Bush did in 8 years. That is a fact. You don’t like it? Neither do I!
I accurately pointed out that many fine and even great Presidents never served in the military. And that Romney not serving is not a disqualification for the office. Simple.
[quote]But really, enough with the sophistry charade. If people actually buy what you have to say, they deserve the consequences.
[/quote]
That is actually funny coming from a liberal. You are the guys that had tears in your eyes and a chill up your leg when Obama spoke. four years later after your guy made things worse you are trying to blame Bush for Obama’s failure. I’d say that pretty much sums up the miserable four years that Obama has given you.
Where is the hope and change that you fell for?
What happened?
I WANT YOU TO DEFEND OBAMA’S RECORD AND STOP THE CHICANERY!
But…you can’t do it as it is indefensible.
Now post back something about George Bush…(eye roll)[/quote]
You act as if I’m not critical of Obama. The fact is I’m critical of both guys. Your little dance about draft dodging shows how far you will go to defend YOUR step in hero who can’t seem to do anything wrong.[/quote]
No, the fact is you try to blame George Bush for Obama’s failures. I addressed your idiocy about the draft by giving you some facts about the many, many Presidents who sidestepped the military and were good Presidents.
Nothing skewed about any of the information that I gave you.
Fact: Obama has raised the debt more in three years (to 5 Trillion) than Bush did in 8 years.
Fact: Unemployment is higher under Obama than under Bush.
Fact: There are more people on food stamps now than under Bush.
Fact: Gas Prices are much higher under Obama than under Bush.
I could go on and list at least 15 more things that are factual regarding your hero Barack Obama
. Bringing up Bush only makes Obama looks worse. Obama owns this mess, not Bush. His lies of hope and change got him elected. But now he has to blame Bush to try to get reelected. He’s fallen pretty far hasn’t he?
We addressed this before. We were attacked on our shores in 2001, did you forget about that? We went after the Tali Ban and Elqida in Afghanistan that was legitimate. As for the Iraq war I was against it, but the armed services committee made up of mostly democrats voted for the Iraq war, so don’t blame just Bush on that one.
The things I posted above have nothing to do with statistics so save it. They are facts! Look them up! Get your head out of Obama’s butt (that can’t be comfortable with the main stream media up there as well) and look for yourself, the guy has been a resounding failure as President!
I consider you no more than a left wing hack for even bringing George Bush up to defend Obama. Here is your argument:
Me: Obama is a failure look at all the things he’s done wrong.
You and your ilk: "Oh yeah well Bush was even worse!
What the hell kind of argument is that even if it were true? Bush is not up for reelection, he already got elected twice. Obama is the one who is up for reelection. You should be bragging about his great record!
Now list all of the things that Obama did over the past four years that would indicate that he deserves to be reelected. And if you can’t do that then you lost the argument it’s pretty simple isn’t it? Don’t mention Bush, Congress, or the little engine that could, just tell us all about Obama’s wonderful record! If you can’t do that don’t respond just go away and lick your wounds like the other liberals who bought into the hope and change lie!
Simple.
I think someone here is projecting…