This is Israel

lou21 · August 9, 2014, 8:18am

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…

NorCal916 · August 9, 2014, 1:30pm

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

Curious, what part of Iran do you live in? Considering a family vacation there, was wondering if you could recommend a quality hookah bar…

lou21 · August 9, 2014, 4:15pm

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

Curious, what part of Iran do you live in? Considering a family vacation there, was wondering if you could recommend a quality hookah bar…[/quote]

lmfao

I can recommend some decent ones in London if you’re planning a visit… Of course you’d have to be careful there are a great many of those islamo-facist-brown-muslim-evil-terrorist-jihad-world-domination types here in the UK and you have to be very careful to wear your burqa at all times <\sarcasm>.

angry_chicken · August 9, 2014, 5:06pm

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

The foundation of the modern State of Israel is literally a movement where the goal and result was buying up land, annexing the land into a jewish state, and herding non-jews and native resistant jews out of the area.[/quote]

foundation of Israel was buying up land, annexing the land into a jewish state

Israel was buying up land (to make) a jewish state

Bought land - Jewish state…

I’m not sure how it works in the rest of the world, but here’s how it works in MOST civilized countries: When you BUY SOMETHING YOU OWN IT. For example, if I bought a house, I have a REASONABLE EXPECTATION that the current occupant of the house will, you know, LEAVE…

Call me crazy, I know - I’ve been know to have some pretty “radical” ideas. But this one doesn’t seem to be all that “far fetched” to me…

The founders of Israel (from my limited understanding) BOUGHT the land. The rest of it was lines drawn in the sand by the British who owned the land via conquest…

SO… We have land that was PURCHASED, and we have land that was GRANTED by an authority recognized as having ownership…

So, given these facts (and feel free to dispute the facts, I am always open to correction with sources, of course) why would the new nation of ISRAEL, founded fairly (as in land purchased and granted) for the PURPOSE of giving the world’s Jewish population, just recently persecuted and almost wiped out in concentration camps, why would they NOT kick off all NON JEWS from THEIR PROPERTY?

I mean, they OWN IT. It is theirs to with as they desire… If they desire non Jews off of the land that THEY OWN, who the fuck is ANYONE to tell them otherwise?

If I bought a house with some land and a homeless person was living in the shed, if he didn’t leave when I asked him to, I’d call the cops. If he came back to MY PROPERTY uninvited, I’d be well within my rights to put a bullet between his eyes…

What’s so hard about that for people to understand?

Gkhan · August 9, 2014, 5:09pm

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

You can not make peace with people who do not want it. Sure, they’ll accept a peace treaty but secretly re-arm and attack as evidenced by the past.

lou21 · August 9, 2014, 5:47pm

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

You can not make peace with people who do not want it. Sure, they’ll accept a peace treaty but secretly re-arm and attack as evidenced by the past.[/quote]

What reasonable peace treaty has actually ever existed?

lou21 · August 9, 2014, 5:55pm

[quote]angry chicken wrote:

[quote]TooHuman wrote:

The foundation of the modern State of Israel is literally a movement where the goal and result was buying up land, annexing the land into a jewish state, and herding non-jews and native resistant jews out of the area.[/quote]

foundation of Israel was buying up land, annexing the land into a jewish state

Israel was buying up land (to make) a jewish state

Bought land - Jewish state…

I’m not sure how it works in the rest of the world, but here’s how it works in MOST civilized countries: When you BUY SOMETHING YOU OWN IT. For example, if I bought a house, I have a REASONABLE EXPECTATION that the current occupant of the house will, you know, LEAVE…

Call me crazy, I know - I’ve been know to have some pretty “radical” ideas. But this one doesn’t seem to be all that “far fetched” to me…

The founders of Israel (from my limited understanding) BOUGHT the land. The rest of it was lines drawn in the sand by the British who owned the land via conquest…

SO… We have land that was PURCHASED, and we have land that was GRANTED by an authority recognized as having ownership…

So, given these facts (and feel free to dispute the facts, I am always open to correction with sources, of course) why would the new nation of ISRAEL, founded fairly (as in land purchased and granted) for the PURPOSE of giving the world’s Jewish population, just recently persecuted and almost wiped out in concentration camps, why would they NOT kick off all NON JEWS from THEIR PROPERTY?

I mean, they OWN IT. It is theirs to with as they desire… If they desire non Jews off of the land that THEY OWN, who the fuck is ANYONE to tell them otherwise?

If I bought a house with some land and a homeless person was living in the shed, if he didn’t leave when I asked him to, I’d call the cops. If he came back to MY PROPERTY uninvited, I’d be well within my rights to put a bullet between his eyes…

What’s so hard about that for people to understand?
[/quote]

The property rights argument is interesting…

Now let’s look at some facts. Before the partition the Jewish population of Palestine owned 7% of the land. The partition gave them 55% of the land. Hence why 65% of the population were a little miffed…

As for the settlement program…

Bismark · August 9, 2014, 6:57pm

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

You can not make peace with people who do not want it. Sure, they’ll accept a peace treaty but secretly re-arm and attack as evidenced by the past.[/quote]

What reasonable peace treaty has actually ever existed?[/quote]

There have been quite a few since the treaty of Westphalia ended the Thirty Years War and created the modern state system in 1648.

lou21 · August 9, 2014, 8:06pm

[quote]Bismark wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

You can not make peace with people who do not want it. Sure, they’ll accept a peace treaty but secretly re-arm and attack as evidenced by the past.[/quote]

What reasonable peace treaty has actually ever existed?[/quote]

There have been quite a few since the treaty of Westphalia ended the Thirty Years War and created the modern state system in 1648.
[/quote]

Nice one.

I meant what reasonable peace treaty in terms of the Palestinian interests that the Israelis showed any signs of actually thinking of following have there been?

DrSkeptix · August 9, 2014, 8:09pm

For Angry Chicken:

The Imbecile Who Is a Jelly Donut is once again perpetuating a lie, disguised as it might be in a statistic.
The Arab population were largely not land-owners in 1948, they were landless Bedouins, share-croppers, tenants, recent immigrants drawn by higher wages and the agricultural and economic activity started by Jewish settlers. What arable land owned by non-Jews was largely held by absentees in Damascus, Beirut and Cairo, or by land speculators who sold marginal land to Jews at inflated prices.

Land Ownership in 1948
The claim is often made that in 1948 a Jewish minority owning
only 5 per cent of the land of Palestine made itself master of the
Arab majority, which owned 95 per cent of the land.
In May 1948 the State of Israel was established in only part of the
area allotted by the original League of Nations Mandate. 8.6 per
cent of the land was owned by Jews and 3.3 per cent by Israeli
Arabs, while 16.9 per cent had been abandoned by Arab owners who
imprudently heeded the call from neighbouring countries to “get
out of the way” while the invading Arab armies made short shrift of
Israel. The rest of the land–over 70 per cent–had been vested in
the Mandatory Power, and accordingly reverted to the State of
Israel as its legal heir. (Government of Palestine, Survey of Palestine,
1946, British Government Printer, p. 257.) {Edit: Note that the whole of the Transjordan had been transferred to Arab protogovernment long before.}
The greater part of this 70 per cent consisted of the Negev, some
3,144,250 acres all told, or close to 50 per cent of the 6,580,000
acres in all of Mandatory Palestine. Known as Crown or State
Lands, this was mostly uninhabited arid or semi-arid territory,
inherited originally by the Mandatory Government from Turkey.
In 1948 it passed to the Government of Israel.
These lands had not been owned by Arab farmers?neither under
the British Mandate nor under the preceding regime. Thus it is
obvious that the contention that 95 per cent of the land?whether
of Mandatory Palestine or of the State of Israel?had belonged to
Arabs has absolutely no foundation in fact.

- ?
  There is perhaps no better way of concluding and summing up
  this study than to quote from an article entitled Is Israel a Thorn
  or a Flower in the Near East? by Abdul Razak Kader, the Algerian
  political writer, now living in exile in Paris (Jerusalem Post, Aug. 1,
  1969):
  "The Nationalists of the states neighbouring on Israel, whether
  they are in the government or in business, whether Palestinian,
  Syrian or Lebanese, or town dwellers of tribal origin, all know that
  at the beginning of the century and during the British Mandate
  the marshy plains and stone hills were sold to the Zionists by their
  fathers or uncles for gold, the very gold which is often the origin
  of their own political or commercial careers. The nomadic or seminomadic
  peasants who inhabited the frontier regions know full well
  what the green plains, the afforested hills and the flowering fields
  of today’s Israel were like before.
  “The Palestinians who are today refugees in the neighbouring
  countries and who were adults at the time of their flight know all
  this, and no anti-Zionist propaganda?pan-Arab or pan-Moslem?
  can make them forget that their present nationalist exploiters are
  the worthy sons of their feudal exploiters of yesterday and that the
  thorns of their life are of Arab, not Jewish, origin.”

lou21 · August 9, 2014, 8:14pm

[quote]DrSkeptix wrote:
For Angry Chicken:

The Imbecile Who Is a Jelly Donut is once again perpetuating a lie, disguised as it might be in a statistic.
The Arab population were largely not land-owners in 1948, they were landless Bedouins, share-croppers, tenants, recent immigrants drawn by higher wages and the agricultural and economic activity started by Jewish settlers. What arable land owned by non-Jews was largely held by absentees in Damascus, Beirut and Cairo, or by land speculators who sold marginal land to Jews at inflated prices.

Land Ownership in 1948
The claim is often made that in 1948 a Jewish minority owning
only 5 per cent of the land of Palestine made itself master of the
Arab majority, which owned 95 per cent of the land.
In May 1948 the State of Israel was established in only part of the
area allotted by the original League of Nations Mandate. 8.6 per
cent of the land was owned by Jews and 3.3 per cent by Israeli
Arabs, while 16.9 per cent had been abandoned by Arab owners who
imprudently heeded the call from neighbouring countries to “get
out of the way” while the invading Arab armies made short shrift of
Israel. The rest of the land–over 70 per cent–had been vested in
the Mandatory Power, and accordingly reverted to the State of
Israel as its legal heir. (Government of Palestine, Survey of Palestine,
1946, British Government Printer, p. 257.) {Edit: Note that the whole of the Transjordan had been transferred to Arab protogovernment long before.}
The greater part of this 70 per cent consisted of the Negev, some
3,144,250 acres all told, or close to 50 per cent of the 6,580,000
acres in all of Mandatory Palestine. Known as Crown or State
Lands, this was mostly uninhabited arid or semi-arid territory,
inherited originally by the Mandatory Government from Turkey.
In 1948 it passed to the Government of Israel.
These lands had not been owned by Arab farmers?neither under
the British Mandate nor under the preceding regime. Thus it is
obvious that the contention that 95 per cent of the land?whether
of Mandatory Palestine or of the State of Israel?had belonged to
Arabs has absolutely no foundation in fact.

- ?
  There is perhaps no better way of concluding and summing up
  this study than to quote from an article entitled Is Israel a Thorn
  or a Flower in the Near East? by Abdul Razak Kader, the Algerian
  political writer, now living in exile in Paris (Jerusalem Post, Aug. 1,
  1969):
  "The Nationalists of the states neighbouring on Israel, whether
  they are in the government or in business, whether Palestinian,
  Syrian or Lebanese, or town dwellers of tribal origin, all know that
  at the beginning of the century and during the British Mandate
  the marshy plains and stone hills were sold to the Zionists by their
  fathers or uncles for gold, the very gold which is often the origin
  of their own political or commercial careers. The nomadic or seminomadic
  peasants who inhabited the frontier regions know full well
  what the green plains, the afforested hills and the flowering fields
  of today’s Israel were like before.
  “The Palestinians who are today refugees in the neighbouring
  countries and who were adults at the time of their flight know all
  this, and no anti-Zionist propaganda?pan-Arab or pan-Moslem?
  can make them forget that their present nationalist exploiters are
  the worthy sons of their feudal exploiters of yesterday and that the
  thorns of their life are of Arab, not Jewish, origin.”[/quote]

I’d be interested to read this article. What is the full reference?

lou21 · August 9, 2014, 11:37pm

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

You can not make peace with people who do not want it. Sure, they’ll accept a peace treaty but secretly re-arm and attack as evidenced by the past.[/quote]

What reasonable peace treaty has actually ever existed?[/quote]

What evidence that Hamas wants mutual co-existence has actually ever existed?

Your argument is the equivalent of “If you tried hard enough, you could fly. You just aren’t trying hard enough!”[/quote]

The thing is that until this attack (it’s not actually a war - Gaza is essentially occupied and therefore this actually counts as internal repression) Hamas were nearly finished. Some of their backing was out thanks to a split with Iran over Syria. The new military regime in Egypt are very anti-Hamas. They were essentially giving up to Fatah. Now they are stronger thanks to Israel’s governments insistence on bombing and attacking Gaza. The Palestinians are still unified but Hamas is not as much the minor party anymore.

Oh and I’ve asked this question a few times. What actual practical evidence has Israel ever actually provided that they are willing to accept a peaceful coexistence that offers the Palestinians full sovereignty?

NorCal916 · August 10, 2014, 1:45am

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

Curious, what part of Iran do you live in? Considering a family vacation there, was wondering if you could recommend a quality hookah bar…[/quote]

lmfao

I can recommend some decent ones in London if you’re planning a visit… Of course you’d have to be careful there are a great many of those islamo-facist-brown-muslim-evil-terrorist-jihad-world-domination types here in the UK and you have to be very careful to wear your burqa at all times <\sarcasm>.[/quote]

London? Oh your screwed lad. You will be a Muslim state within 10 years. Your children will be carrying their holy korans and prayer rugs every day.

Hate it for ya.

lou21 · August 10, 2014, 11:46am

[quote]Chushin wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]Gkhan wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

You can not make peace with people who do not want it. Sure, they’ll accept a peace treaty but secretly re-arm and attack as evidenced by the past.[/quote]

What reasonable peace treaty has actually ever existed?[/quote]

What evidence that Hamas wants mutual co-existence has actually ever existed?

Your argument is the equivalent of “If you tried hard enough, you could fly. You just aren’t trying hard enough!”[/quote]

SO Hamas have been prepared to accept a two-state solution for years. However, the point is that prior to this Israeli attack Hamas were not important anymore. Their main funding was out (Iran due to a split over Syria). Hamas had agreed to a unity government with Fatah as the main party.

Israel didn’t really need to negotiate with Hamas before this they just needed to act.

Now the Israeli government has made Hamas stronger.

lou21 · August 10, 2014, 11:46am

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]NorCal916 wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Clearly you don’t fear extremist Islam like the Israeli’s do…they are doing what they have to do to survive.
[/quote]

Thing is is they want to survive long term the Israelis need to work out how to make peace with the Palestinians…[/quote]

Curious, what part of Iran do you live in? Considering a family vacation there, was wondering if you could recommend a quality hookah bar…[/quote]

lmfao

I can recommend some decent ones in London if you’re planning a visit… Of course you’d have to be careful there are a great many of those islamo-facist-brown-muslim-evil-terrorist-jihad-world-domination types here in the UK and you have to be very careful to wear your burqa at all times <\sarcasm>.[/quote]

London? Oh your screwed lad. You will be a Muslim state within 10 years. Your children will be carrying their holy korans and prayer rugs every day.

Hate it for ya.
[/quote]

Brevik fan are you?

NorCal916 · August 10, 2014, 12:29pm

The good news is that infidel women will have a decent selection of burqas they can wear. Some of the more risque’ ones even show a tad bit of ankle! It won’t be THAT bad for your wife and daughter… Think of the money you will save on car insurance.

Gkhan · August 10, 2014, 12:57pm