This is Israel

[DoubleDuce]

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]phatphit wrote:
didnt hamas start this with relentless rocketfire? hamas started firing just now breaking ceasefire again…[/quote]

No Israel started this.

Please read this from the Israeli press:

Hamas fires rockets for first time since 2012, Israeli officials say

Relating to the start of the crisis. Basically Hamas weren’t firing, other groups were, Hamas was actively working to stop them, then Israel launched an air strike rather than a police investigation of the murder of the three settler teenagers, then Hamas retaliated.

But yes they’ve just restarted firing. The ceasefire was officially over and although they are still talking the negotiations are going nowhere. Neither side is going to accept the other side’s demands at this stage. This will end badly for the Palestinians in Gaza.[/quote]

This is kind of like saying the guy who threw the 451 punch in a fist fight started it because there was no conflict in the space between the 450th and 451st punch.

And of course they are going nowhere. Radical Muslims lack the reason necessary for negotiation. There one demand is that all Jews die.

“In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube.”[/quote]

It does matter who threw the first punch in this one. Israel always says that it is responding to aggression. It is important to realise that they are not always doing so.

[/quote]
This one? What is “this one”? And building tunnels into Israel is aggression. So is crazy lunatics who have killed your people in the past and espouse to continue doing so forever arming themselves.

The Palestinian government (note not just Hamas they formed a unified government before this particular war) demands in these negotiations are fairly reasonable. They want the borders opened so that they can trade with the world. The situation on the ground in Gaza at the moment seems to be that ordinary people are prepared to keep getting pummelled because the day-to-day life since Israel left has been so difficult. If the borders were opened and there were an economy then ordinary people would have more to lose.

They have been open, they were used to get weapons to kill Jews, which is precisely what they would do again. Nor does Israel control all of the Gaza boarders, something Anti-Semites like you always fail to notice.

[quote]

Yes allowing these demands now will strengthen Hamas. But this is Israel’s own fault. Hamas were making the best attempt that they could to be reasonable before this war started (stopping rockets forming a unified government). Israel could have actually dealt with them then and demonstrated that peace not war is the way forward.[/quote]

It is Israels’ fault that open boarders have always lead to radical Muslims killing more Jews? How exactly do you recon that? And No Hamas has never been reasonable. They have always demanded the extermination of the Jews. The only times they have ever agreed to even the slightest measures of “peace” were to re-arm so they could continue killing Jews. EVERY SINGLE TIME. If twice fooled makes one a fool you are the dumbest person on Earth.

[lou21]

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]phatphit wrote:
didnt hamas start this with relentless rocketfire? hamas started firing just now breaking ceasefire again…[/quote]

No Israel started this.

Please read this from the Israeli press:

Hamas fires rockets for first time since 2012, Israeli officials say

Relating to the start of the crisis. Basically Hamas weren’t firing, other groups were, Hamas was actively working to stop them, then Israel launched an air strike rather than a police investigation of the murder of the three settler teenagers, then Hamas retaliated.

But yes they’ve just restarted firing. The ceasefire was officially over and although they are still talking the negotiations are going nowhere. Neither side is going to accept the other side’s demands at this stage. This will end badly for the Palestinians in Gaza.[/quote]

This is kind of like saying the guy who threw the 451 punch in a fist fight started it because there was no conflict in the space between the 450th and 451st punch.

And of course they are going nowhere. Radical Muslims lack the reason necessary for negotiation. There one demand is that all Jews die.

“In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube.”[/quote]

It does matter who threw the first punch in this one. Israel always says that it is responding to aggression. It is important to realise that they are not always doing so.

[/quote]
This one? What is “this one”? And building tunnels into Israel is aggression. So is crazy lunatics who have killed your people in the past and espouse to continue doing so forever arming themselves.

The Palestinian government (note not just Hamas they formed a unified government before this particular war) demands in these negotiations are fairly reasonable. They want the borders opened so that they can trade with the world. The situation on the ground in Gaza at the moment seems to be that ordinary people are prepared to keep getting pummelled because the day-to-day life since Israel left has been so difficult. If the borders were opened and there were an economy then ordinary people would have more to lose.

They have been open, they were used to get weapons to kill Jews, which is precisely what they would do again. Nor does Israel control all of the Gaza boarders, something Anti-Semites like you always fail to notice.

[quote]

Yes allowing these demands now will strengthen Hamas. But this is Israel’s own fault. Hamas were making the best attempt that they could to be reasonable before this war started (stopping rockets forming a unified government). Israel could have actually dealt with them then and demonstrated that peace not war is the way forward.[/quote]

It is Israels’ fault that open boarders have always lead to radical Muslims killing more Jews? How exactly do you recon that? And No Hamas has never been reasonable. They have always demanded the extermination of the Jews. The only times they have ever agreed to even the slightest measures of “peace” were to re-arm so they could continue killing Jews. EVERY SINGLE TIME. If twice fooled makes one a fool you are the dumbest person on Earth.[/quote]

We could have discussed some of your points but using Anti-Semite as a smear like you do is totally pathetic.

[DoubleDuce]

[quote]lou21 wrote:

We could have discussed some of your points but I have no logical rebuttal and continue to irrationally push my view because I hate Jews.[/quote]

Fixed that for you. There is certainly something pathetic going on though.

[UtahLama]

Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?

[DoubleDuce]

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?[/quote]

Like I quoted, the only possible outcome in a compromise between food and poison is death. What exactly is the middle ground between the total genocide of the Jewish people and believing a human who is a Jew has a right to exist? Israel should compromise and have half of all Jews commit suicide?

[lou21]

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?[/quote]

Good now we are talking.

Hamas are not reasonable they are at heart terrorists - whether their only goal is destruction of Israel is not as clear cut as their manifesto makes out. On the other hand elements of Likud are not exactly reasonable people. I can’t see any meaningful solutions that will bring lasting peace by discussion between Hamas and Likud.

Additionally as I said previously if the Israeli government gives in to Palestinian demands now during/after a war this will strengthen Hamas.

Currently the two state solution is basically dead. Both sides are responsible for this - in particular the settlement program in the West Bank makes it a practical impossibility as any solution that involves forcibly removing 400,000 people is not realistic (they haven’t even managed to re-home all the comparatively few settlers from Gaza 10 years on). If Israel did want a two state solution then they would need to stop and start to reverse the settlement program in the West Bank.

So the way forward? As I understand it the new Israeli president favours a one state solution i.e. giving Palestinians Israeli citizenship. 20% of the Israeli population are Muslim Arabs of Palestinian descent and this seems to work. So the way to do it would be to give Palestinians full Israeli citizenship - this would have to be phased in slowly. There is a lot of racism on both sides as a result of over half a century of war and both sides would need to confront this robustly (read people like Hamas and the people calling for death to Arabs getting some severe prison sentences).

Basically negotiations are a waste of time. Israel needs to take unilateral action. I doubt that the political will is there on the Israeli side but I have some hope for the new President in increasing it.

[jasmincar]

[quote]SexMachine wrote:

[quote]jasmincar wrote:
More mental illness.

[/quote]

I’m sorry to hear that.

These people should just mind their business.

Which people?

Life is short.

Indeed.

I don’t fucking care about hamas, israel or palestine.

Then why are you posting in a thread about Hamas, Israel and Palestine?

I find it hard to believe that people are bad on one side and good on the other.

I find moral relativism hard to believe.

Those people are the same with the same dumb people in each side fighting the other.

Well, you clearly have deep insight into the situation.

mind your own business

mind your own business

mind your own business

The “business” of this sub forum is “politics and world issues.” The “business” of this thread is the conflict in Gaza. If you’re “not interested” then maybe you should “mind your own business” jasmine. Run along now.[/quote]

Yeah I’ll “run along” now (or maybe parkour along?). There is no way I am going to talk about things I don’t know like all of you dumbasses, because there is no point. Carry on with your waste of time and your war. I wouldn’t listen to you in real life anyway.

[UtahLama]

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?[/quote]

Good now we are talking.

Hamas are not reasonable they are at heart terrorists [/quote]

This is the only problem…Hamas is the elected government of Palestine.

Even if Israel takes unilateral action they will never accept it.

The result of that is Israel allowing the terrorists to become citizens of their own country.

Hamas…the elected leadership…would keep waging war.

[lou21]

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?[/quote]

Good now we are talking.

Hamas are not reasonable they are at heart terrorists [/quote]

This is the only problem…Hamas is the elected government of Palestine.

Even if Israel takes unilateral action they will never accept it.

The result of that is Israel allowing the terrorists to become citizens of their own country.

Hamas…the elected leadership…would keep waging war.[/quote]

No Hamas are the majority elected government in Gaza. However, they had just before this war just formed a unity government with Fatah (a secular left party that is the majority in the West Bank) and I’m pretty sure there were supposed to be no Hamas members in the senior cabinet.

Are all Palestinians terrorists in your view?

[UtahLama]

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?[/quote]

Good now we are talking.

Hamas are not reasonable they are at heart terrorists [/quote]

This is the only problem…Hamas is the elected government of Palestine.

Even if Israel takes unilateral action they will never accept it.

The result of that is Israel allowing the terrorists to become citizens of their own country.

Hamas…the elected leadership…would keep waging war.[/quote]

No Hamas are the majority elected government in Gaza. However, they had just before this war just formed a unity government with Fatah (a secular left party that is the majority in the West Bank) and I’m pretty sure there were supposed to be no Hamas members in the senior cabinet.

Are all Palestinians terrorists in your view?[/quote]

Not at all, there are MANY innocents on both sides…but if the people in power are terrorists and the Iranian government that is backing them are terrorists(both entities who want every Jew dead), Hamas is clearly calling the shots.

How can Israel negotiate with the minority government? Just because Fatah accepts a deal, why would Hamas honor it?

It is already clear that Hamas and Iran will never stop fighting, how can one negotiate with people who want to kill you?

[lou21]

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?[/quote]

Good now we are talking.

Hamas are not reasonable they are at heart terrorists [/quote]

This is the only problem…Hamas is the elected government of Palestine.

Even if Israel takes unilateral action they will never accept it.

The result of that is Israel allowing the terrorists to become citizens of their own country.

Hamas…the elected leadership…would keep waging war.[/quote]

No Hamas are the majority elected government in Gaza. However, they had just before this war just formed a unity government with Fatah (a secular left party that is the majority in the West Bank) and I’m pretty sure there were supposed to be no Hamas members in the senior cabinet.

Are all Palestinians terrorists in your view?[/quote]

Not at all, there are MANY innocents on both sides…but if the people in power are terrorists and the Iranian government that is backing them are terrorists(both entities who want every Jew dead), Hamas is clearly calling the shots.

How can Israel negotiate with the minority government? Just because Fatah accepts a deal, why would Hamas honor it?

It is already clear that Hamas and Iran will never stop fighting, how can one negotiate with people who want to kill you?
[/quote]

OK wtf?

1. Iran aren’t fighting anyone. EDIT (They had even stopped funding Hamas prior to this particular war.) END EDIT

2. Fatah are the majority government. There are more Palestinians in the West Bank than Gaza. The very fact that Hamas have (finally) formed a government with Fatah implies that they are prepared to negotiate.

3. My point was that the Israelis shouldn’t negotiate. They as the occupying power and the far more powerful side should solve the situation in a way that allows the innocents to live in peace. The solution I suggested did not involve any negotiation at all. It did not involve giving citizenship to terrorists (well I suppose it did but only the sort of citizenship that involves a prison cell). It is also based upon what I understand the Israeli president suggests (if I’m wrong then anyone feel free to jump in and correct me).

[UtahLama]

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?[/quote]

Good now we are talking.

Hamas are not reasonable they are at heart terrorists [/quote]

This is the only problem…Hamas is the elected government of Palestine.

Even if Israel takes unilateral action they will never accept it.

The result of that is Israel allowing the terrorists to become citizens of their own country.

Hamas…the elected leadership…would keep waging war.[/quote]

No Hamas are the majority elected government in Gaza. However, they had just before this war just formed a unity government with Fatah (a secular left party that is the majority in the West Bank) and I’m pretty sure there were supposed to be no Hamas members in the senior cabinet.

Are all Palestinians terrorists in your view?[/quote]

Not at all, there are MANY innocents on both sides…but if the people in power are terrorists and the Iranian government that is backing them are terrorists(both entities who want every Jew dead), Hamas is clearly calling the shots.

How can Israel negotiate with the minority government? Just because Fatah accepts a deal, why would Hamas honor it?

It is already clear that Hamas and Iran will never stop fighting, how can one negotiate with people who want to kill you?
[/quote]

OK wtf?

1. Iran aren’t fighting anyone. EDIT (They had even stopped funding Hamas prior to this particular war.) END EDIT

2. Fatah are the majority government. There are more Palestinians in the West Bank than Gaza. The very fact that Hamas have (finally) formed a government with Fatah implies that they are prepared to negotiate.

3. My point was that the Israelis shouldn’t negotiate. They as the occupying power and the far more powerful side should solve the situation in a way that allows the innocents to live in peace. The solution I suggested did not involve any negotiation at all. It did not involve giving citizenship to terrorists (well I suppose it did but only the sort of citizenship that involves a prison cell). It is also based upon what I understand the Israeli president suggests (if I’m wrong then anyone feel free to jump in and correct me).[/quote]

If you think that Iran really stopped funding Hamas I have some Ocean front property in Leeds to sell you, but that is neither here nor there.

They may well negotiate, they may well agree to terms, but there is no way that the violence against Israel will stop.

Please see -

Madrid Conference of 1991
Oslo Accords (1993)
Wye River Memorandum (October 23, 1998)
Camp David 2000 Summit (2000)
The Clinton Parameters (December 23, 2000)
Taba summit (January, 2001)
Elon Peace Plan (also known as “The Israeli Initiative”) (2002)
The People’s Voice (July 27, 2002)
Road Map for Peace (April 30, 2003)
Isratine AKA One-State Solution (May 8, 2003)
Geneva Accord (October 20, 2003)
Sharm el-Sheikh Summit of 2005 (February 8, 2005)
2006 Franco-Italian-Spanish Middle East Peace Plan
Two-state solution
Three state solution
A Peace of Jerusalem, APoJi
Israeli Peace Initiative (6 April 2011)

Also-

Peace proposals of Count Folke Bernadotte (1948)
1949 Armistice Agreements
UN Security Council Resolution 242 (November 22, 1967)
Jarring Mission (1967â??1971)
Allon Plan 26 July 1967
Rogers Plan (1969)
Camp David Accords (1978)
Israel-Egypt Peace Treaty (1979)
Fahd Plan (1981)
Reagan Plan (Sept.1, 1982)
Fez Initiative (Sept.9, 1982)
May 17 Agreement (1983), a failed attempt of peace between Lebanon and Israel
Israel-Jordan Treaty of Peace (1994)
Arab Peace Initiative (March 28, 2002)

[UtahLama]

Treaties mean about as much to radical Islamists as women’s rights.

[lou21]

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Treaties mean about as much to radical Islamists as women’s rights.[/quote]

Where did I suggest a treaty. I suggested that Israel needs to unilaterally take the wind from the radical Islamic sails and give the innocent Palestinians a better life.

[UtahLama]

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Treaties mean about as much to radical Islamists as women’s rights.[/quote]

Where did I suggest a treaty. I suggested that Israel needs to unilaterally take the wind from the radical Islamic sails and give the innocent Palestinians a better life.[/quote]

If Israel allows all Palestinians citizenship then Jews are now the minority in elections…I don’t know if that works for them, maybe…but I think not.

Also, who makes the call if a Palestinian shopkeeper is truly a peace loving worker…or Hamas warrior in disguise?

That’s one tall order.

[TooHuman]

All this discussion about the current state of Hamas, Palestine, Isreal is really disheartening.

I mean there is clearly aggression on both sides but the foundation of the state(the actually government) of Isreal has been catastrophic for Jews and Muslims in Palestine for 80+ years.

Those foundations are of Marxist influence transforming waning rabbinical(read:fundamentalist) Judaism from the middle ages into the Zionist movement.

The foundation of the modern State of Israel is literally a movement where the goal and result was buying up land, annexing the land into a jewish state, and herding non-jews and native resistant jews out of the area.

When I say the word “herding” i mean it literally as well. The foundation of rabbinical Judaism in Israel literally compares the souls of non-jews to the souls of cattle, so it should be no surprise that they were herded and exterminated when they resisted in '48.

And even though the gross numbers were orders of magnitude lower, expecting people to just accept the existence of a state that exiled %90 of the population killing and raping when they encountered resistance is as disgusting and dehumanizing as playing down the horrors of the Holocaust that took place in the same decade.

And before anybody plays the absolute Bullshit card of antisemitism you should know that I have 18 members of my extended family living in Israel and in general they and the non-orthodox population as a whole hate the parasitical Orthodox rabbinical radicals that the Zionists in power pander to.

They are the welfare class there so they drive the pure numbers in elections but they also drive the fundamentalist xenophobia that underlies the Zionists.

[UtahLama]

Why would 18 members of your family live in such an evil place?

Do you have any documentation of raping and herding folks out of Israel?..many links have been posted on these threads documenting the purchasing of the land by Jews, many times at inflated costs. As well as the offer of citizenship to anybody who wanted to stay.

Do you have some proof of these atrocities aside from a Jihadists instruction handbook?

[Aragorn]

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?[/quote]

Good now we are talking.

Hamas are not reasonable they are at heart terrorists - whether their only goal is destruction of Israel is not as clear cut as their manifesto makes out. [/quote]

See–This I just can’t agree with you on. I mean that’s like saying “Fred Phelps’s Westboro Baptists don’t hate gays, it’s not as clear cut as their words and protests make out”.

If you said that people would rightly laugh in your face because it is blatantly false. But, somehow, saying the same thing about a terrorist organization that has repeatedly called for Jews to die, publically admitted that they use human shield strategy, and has it in their founding document that Jews are to be exterminated…somehow it is completely reasonable to conclude that “their goal is not as clear cut as their manifesto makes out”

That is gymnastics of the highest order, and intellectual dishonesty. Or if not dishonesty then at least outright laziness. You just admitted they were terrorists yourself.

They say it.

They act on it.

They preach for others to act on it.

They put it in their founding document.

How, “not as bad as I think” could they be?

[Aragorn]

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Why would 18 members of your family live in such an evil place?

Do you have any documentation of raping and herding folks out of Israel?..many links have been posted on these threads documenting the purchasing of the land by Jews, many times at inflated costs. As well as the offer of citizenship to anybody who wanted to stay.

Do you have some proof of these atrocities aside from a Jihadists instruction handbook?[/quote]

I wouldn’t ask for documentation of rape–1st because this is a loooooooong standing war and there is GOING to be some of that happening somewhere. That’s what a 70 year long conflict can do to twist humans. 2nd because that’s going about it the wrong way–Israel has done some serious wrongs, as ALL COUNTRIES on earth have, but has remained legitimately governed and non-terroristic. 3rd because they did in fact offer citizenship, they did in fact purchase the land through non-governmental means prior to 1948…which means private purchases that were and are legal.

After the civil war in '48, and of course likely during it, I am sure disenfranchisement occurred. Unfortunately, that is the cost of war. That is what all wars, in the history of the world, have done to some amount of people. That is a fact of nature, and I do not consider the bald fact enough to condemn Israel as terroristic or unlawful. The things that have gone on in Israel’s actions during the last 70 years or so are absolute peanuts compared with what many of the “evolved” Western European powers did throughout their hundreds of years of existence. Or, for that matter, the USA has done.

In other words, if that is someone’s measuring stick then NO GOV’T on earth passes muster.

[lou21]

[quote]Aragorn wrote:

[quote]lou21 wrote:

[quote]UtahLama wrote:
Lou, you have never addressed how Israel is supposed to negotiate with people whose only goal is the elimination of the Jewish race and the total destruction of Israel.

How do you suppose they go about that?[/quote]

Good now we are talking.

Hamas are not reasonable they are at heart terrorists - whether their only goal is destruction of Israel is not as clear cut as their manifesto makes out. [/quote]

See–This I just can’t agree with you on. I mean that’s like saying “Fred Phelps’s Westboro Baptists don’t hate gays, it’s not as clear cut as their words and protests make out”.

If you said that people would rightly laugh in your face because it is blatantly false. But, somehow, saying the same thing about a terrorist organization that has repeatedly called for Jews to die, publically admitted that they use human shield strategy, and has it in their founding document that Jews are to be exterminated…somehow it is completely reasonable to conclude that “their goal is not as clear cut as their manifesto makes out”

That is gymnastics of the highest order, and intellectual dishonesty. Or if not dishonesty then at least outright laziness. You just admitted they were terrorists yourself.

They say it.

They act on it.

They preach for others to act on it.

They put it in their founding document.

How, “not as bad as I think” could they be?[/quote]

Yes they are terrorists. So are some of the Israelis. Hamas have said that they are happy for a two state solution and a permanent truce but I guess the US press missed that bit. Whether this is actually true I’m not sure, it is what they say though.