[quote]magick wrote:
…Last I checked, they want to completely drive Israel out and evict all of the Israeli living there…
[/quote]
If only. No, there publicly stated goal is the extermination of all Jews. Not just getting them out of the region.
[/quote]
evict all of the Israeli living there from life =D
[quote]lou21 wrote:
I apologise I thought there might be some reasonable people on these forums capable of thinking a little for themselves. I guess I was wrong. Good bye.[/quote]
[quote]lou21 wrote:
I apologise I thought there might be some reasonable people on these forums capable of thinking a little for themselves. I guess I was wrong. Good bye.[/quote]
Lol, that’s a very thinly veiled concession of defeat.
In all reality, the war began when the Israeli started moving en masse into Palestine in the 20-40s and the Arabs decided that they didn’t like that.
Just because there are cessations in the conflict here and there doesn’t mean that the war ended.
Did the current bout start because of Israel? Perhaps.
But you need to read your own article better-
“The latest series of attacks comes amid an escalation in hostilities along Israelâ??s border with the Gaza Strip, as IDF troops scour the West Bank for three missing Israeli teenagers.”
I’m sure the Israelis consider this defensive action in an attempt to find these teenagers.
The point is, this is an incredibly complex conflict. Saying that one group is more responsible, etc, doesn’t really help.
Complex situations can only be addressed by showing that they are complex. Reducing them to sound-bites doesn’t really do anything.
Oh, and of course the Israeli are “evil”. They’ve always been “evil” as far as I’m concerned.
But that’s more because I consider all men to be evil at heart more than anything else…
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Hamas is evil. Radical Muslims are responsible for the conflict.[/quote]
Is this actually true?
Afaik, the Arabs fought against the Israeli because the Arabs didn’t want to lose their land to a bunch of people who immigrated there, and then suddenly some extra-legal super government just declared that all these immigrants now ruled a good portion of their land.
If I was some random guy living in Palestine when this happened, I’d be pretty damned pissed too.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
Hamas is evil. Radical Muslims are responsible for the conflict.[/quote]
Is this actually true?
Afaik, the Arabs fought against the Israeli because the Arabs didn’t want to lose their land to a bunch of people who immigrated there, and then suddenly some extra-legal super government just declared that all these immigrants now ruled a good portion of their land.
If I was some random guy living in Palestine when this happened, I’d be pretty damned pissed too.[/quote]
If the Immigrant Jews had sized power, overthrew a just existing government and disbarred the existing people from having political power, then that would be true. But none of that happened. You are completely and totally allowed to be Muslim, “arab”, or “Palestinian”, AND Israeli.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If the Immigrant Jews had sized power, overthrew a just existing government and disbarred the existing people from having political power, then that would be true. But none of that happened. You are completely and totally allowed to be Muslim, “arab”, or “Palestinian”, AND Israeli.[/quote]
Isn’t that exactly what happened?
The Israeli moved in in large numbers, enough to actually become a sizable group in the total population.
The Arabs didn’t like this + the British ruling over Palestine to begin with, so they attack both the Israeli and the British, sparking the civil war.
And then the U.N. more or less declares the state of Israel and splits Palestine into two.
This pisses off just about every Muslim country in the vicinity, and they declare war. Israel wins. 20 years or so later, the Muslims attack again; this time they nearly win but are driven back in the end. Israel is pissed off and annexes a good portion of territory from both Egypt and Palestine. Etc etc.
[quote]DoubleDuce wrote:
If the Immigrant Jews had sized power, overthrew a just existing government and disbarred the existing people from having political power, then that would be true. But none of that happened. You are completely and totally allowed to be Muslim, “arab”, or “Palestinian”, AND Israeli.[/quote]
Isn’t that exactly what happened?
The Israeli moved in in large numbers, enough to actually become a sizable group in the total population.
The Arabs didn’t like this + the British ruling over Palestine to begin with, so they attack both the Israeli and the British, sparking the civil war.
And then the U.N. more or less declares the state of Israel and splits Palestine into two.
This pisses off just about every Muslim country in the vicinity, and they declare war. Israel wins. 20 years or so later, the Muslims attack again; this time they nearly win but are driven back in the end. Israel is pissed off and annexes a good portion of territory from both Egypt and Palestine. Etc etc.[/quote]
No. They didn’t really overthrow anything and they don’t disbar anyone from a political voice. Something like 20% of Israeli citizens are Arab Muslims. Even the people in the annexed territories were offered citizenship.
The British were backing out and leaving a vacuum. There was nothing there to overthrow. The Jews accepted a 2 state solution so both Muslims and Jews could run their own countries. The arabs rejected Jews living anywhere and started attacking and killing Jews. The Jews fought back, won, and declared they were their own country.
Israelis are perfectly good at making their own weapons. America has given money and guns to practically everyone at this point. It’s not bollocks, we’re just desensitized at the ubiquity of it all. If you’re expecting anyone in America to feel personally culpable in any way for any government assistance we provide Israel you’d better not hold your breath lol. Nobody cares.[/quote]
Your tax money is spent on this. Do you not care about how your tax money is spent?[/quote]
My tax money is being spent on literally millions of things that I don’t give a shit about. I’m jaded and cynical. I’ve completely given up on my tax money. To me, tax money is money that I give to the government for them to throw in a pile and burn and in exchange they don’t put me in jail.
If I actually had a say in how my taxes were being spent I would stop giving money to everyone, at least until we took care of our impossibly large debt. I would also phase out social security asap since that’s the stupidest fucking thing ever and could save a massive amount of tax dollars.
But anyway, I feel very little control over any of that.[/quote]
Bingo to that! Particularly “money I pay for the government to throw in a pile and burn in exchange for them not putting me in jail” part.
Also, with a total budget of 2.4 trillion dollars, 3 billion is enough to fund just under 1/2 of one day of “governing”. In other words, last on any budget chopping block (with current politicians in charge) due to “insignificant chump change”
[quote]lou21 wrote:
I feel were are losing track of the point of the thread. Have mainly of you read the links I posted? What did you think?[/quote]
The first one makes some good points. At this point I agree with the annexation of Gaza. I think it’s the only way to contain the violence and stop it. As for as concentration camps, a.k.a. prisons, I agree so long as they are only for Hamas members.
So long as Hamas refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist, fails to renounce violence, and continues to call for the murder of Jews there is no chance at a 2 state solution. [/quote]
Are the views of Hamas any worse than those put forward by the people quoted in those articles? How?[/quote]
Yes, they profess the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jews. Hamas has no credibility, they aren’t in it for a state they are in it for blood. Their own statements bare that out. I posted somewhere a dozen or so links of their own quotes stating that the support the genocide of Jews and the total destruction of Israel.
If they truly wanted only their own state, they would have had it a long time ago.
These people should just mind their business. Life is short. I don’t fucking care about hamas, israel or palestine. I find it hard to believe that people are bad on one side and good on the other. Those people are the same with the same dumb people in each side fighting the other.
Then why are you posting in a thread about Hamas, Israel and Palestine?
I find moral relativism hard to believe.
Well, you clearly have deep insight into the situation.
The “business” of this sub forum is “politics and world issues.” The “business” of this thread is the conflict in Gaza. If you’re “not interested” then maybe you should “mind your own business” jasmine. Run along now.
[quote]phatphit wrote:
didnt hamas start this with relentless rocketfire? hamas started firing just now breaking ceasefire again…[/quote]
No Israel started this.
Please read this from the Israeli press:
Relating to the start of the crisis. Basically Hamas weren’t firing, other groups were, Hamas was actively working to stop them, then Israel launched an air strike rather than a police investigation of the murder of the three settler teenagers, then Hamas retaliated.
But yes they’ve just restarted firing. The ceasefire was officially over and although they are still talking the negotiations are going nowhere. Neither side is going to accept the other side’s demands at this stage. This will end badly for the Palestinians in Gaza.
[quote]lou21 wrote:
I feel were are losing track of the point of the thread. Have mainly of you read the links I posted? What did you think?[/quote]
The first one makes some good points. At this point I agree with the annexation of Gaza. I think it’s the only way to contain the violence and stop it. As for as concentration camps, a.k.a. prisons, I agree so long as they are only for Hamas members.
So long as Hamas refuses to recognize Israel’s right to exist, fails to renounce violence, and continues to call for the murder of Jews there is no chance at a 2 state solution. [/quote]
Are the views of Hamas any worse than those put forward by the people quoted in those articles? How?[/quote]
Yes, they profess the destruction of Israel and the genocide of Jews. Hamas has no credibility, they aren’t in it for a state they are in it for blood. Their own statements bare that out. I posted somewhere a dozen or so links of their own quotes stating that the support the genocide of Jews and the total destruction of Israel.
If they truly wanted only their own state, they would have had it a long time ago.[/quote]
Not sure how they are supposed to get their own state in the face of this…
Also you say that the tent camps aka concentration camps sound like a good idea. He was proposing this for the entire population of Gaza followed be deportation.
A bit more about the guy here (Moshe Feiglin - Wikipedia). He’s not exactly universally supported in Israel.
[quote]phatphit wrote:
didnt hamas start this with relentless rocketfire? hamas started firing just now breaking ceasefire again…[/quote]
No Israel started this.
Please read this from the Israeli press:
Relating to the start of the crisis. Basically Hamas weren’t firing, other groups were, Hamas was actively working to stop them, then Israel launched an air strike rather than a police investigation of the murder of the three settler teenagers, then Hamas retaliated.
But yes they’ve just restarted firing. The ceasefire was officially over and although they are still talking the negotiations are going nowhere. Neither side is going to accept the other side’s demands at this stage. This will end badly for the Palestinians in Gaza.[/quote]
This is kind of like saying the guy who threw the 451 punch in a fist fight started it because there was no conflict in the space between the 450th and 451st punch.
And of course they are going nowhere. Radical Muslims lack the reason necessary for negotiation. There one demand is that all Jews die.
“In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube.”
[quote]phatphit wrote:
didnt hamas start this with relentless rocketfire? hamas started firing just now breaking ceasefire again…[/quote]
No Israel started this.
Please read this from the Israeli press:
Relating to the start of the crisis. Basically Hamas weren’t firing, other groups were, Hamas was actively working to stop them, then Israel launched an air strike rather than a police investigation of the murder of the three settler teenagers, then Hamas retaliated.
But yes they’ve just restarted firing. The ceasefire was officially over and although they are still talking the negotiations are going nowhere. Neither side is going to accept the other side’s demands at this stage. This will end badly for the Palestinians in Gaza.[/quote]
This is kind of like saying the guy who threw the 451 punch in a fist fight started it because there was no conflict in the space between the 450th and 451st punch.
And of course they are going nowhere. Radical Muslims lack the reason necessary for negotiation. There one demand is that all Jews die.
“In any compromise between food and poison, it is only death that can win. In any compromise between good and evil, it is only evil that can profit. In that transfusion of blood which drains the good to feed the evil, the compromiser is the transmitting rubber tube.”[/quote]
It does matter who threw the first punch in this one. Israel always says that it is responding to aggression. It is important to realise that they are not always doing so.
The Palestinian government (note not just Hamas they formed a unified government before this particular war) demands in these negotiations are fairly reasonable. They want the borders opened so that they can trade with the world. The situation on the ground in Gaza at the moment seems to be that ordinary people are prepared to keep getting pummelled because the day-to-day life since Israel left has been so difficult. If the borders were opened and there were an economy then ordinary people would have more to lose.
Yes allowing these demands now will strengthen Hamas. But this is Israel’s own fault. Hamas were making the best attempt that they could to be reasonable before this war started (stopping rockets forming a unified government). Israel could have actually dealt with them then and demonstrated that peace not war is the way forward.
[quote]lou21 wrote:
Did you watch the video?[/quote]
I don’t have time to watch right now; I will take a look soon.[/quote]
Do let us know what you think.[/quote]
who’s us?[/quote]
People posting on this forum. It is an interesting video. I’m not certain that all of it is true. But it is worth watching even if you are the most ardent fan of Israel.