Third Cycle Advice?

Pharma / TRT
1

I am currently 6’3 235. I did two cycles two years ago. My first was March of 06 and the 2nd was September of 06. I have been clean since then. My first was 500mg/test e/week, and the 2nd was 600mg/test e /week and 300mg/deca. First cycle was great, the 2nd I still made good gains but I got horrible acne from the deca.

My biggest problem however is when both cycles were done, I lost almost all my gains. I am currently looking to finally elevate my game and start looking like a serious lifter. I am planning on 600mg/week of test e, and possibly stacking it with 300mg of EQ.

I also am considering a test taper, as both times I used “traditional” pct my gains were all but gone after 5-6 weeks. Any advice?

2

Sounds like you stated your problem and suggested a reasonable solution. If you tried something twice and it didn’t work, try something else, in this case the taper.

You might also consider your training and nutrition post-cycle. If you over-train or under-eat post-cycle you may not optimally retain gains. You may put on a slight bit of fat trying to maintain the muscle mass, but after you fully recover from the cycle it’ll be easier to lose that bit of fat than gain that lost muscle (IMO). You may try to lower the workout volume (keep the intensity) and increase the calories a bit (especially protein), along with the taper, and see how that does.

3

I had the same problem for years. I seem to do better now with a long gentle PCT of just clomid the first 3-4 weeks then move into nolvadex for another 2 weeks. I generally hold through PCT. Once PC is over is when the losses come for me. I have found that it is not necessarily a better PCT that I need but the diet and work out regime I use. You will be somewhat catabolic as you come off as your body readjusts to it’s natural state. You will have higher cortisol and less androgens.

The temptation is to train as hard as when on. And, the diet tends to slip when off. The workout intensity can stay high but the frequency has to drop. I go from 3 on 1 off to 2 on 1 off. The diet has to stay high in protein but still track your calories. I tend to keep 200 - 250 g protein in my diet and try to keep calories about 500 below maintenance to prevent fat accumulation. I’m older now so I am sensitive to carbs and higher calorie diets now.

Bottom line is you have to track everything and realize that your body is going through an adjustment. Another thing that has worked for me is shorter more frequent cycles on the order of 4 weeks. I’ll do 4 on 4 off, 4 on then off for 8-12 weeks. The last 2 weeks of the 4 off I use a little clomid. this seems to limit suppression and halt the body’s adjustment to supraphysiologic status of AAS consumption. Plus there tends to be less side effects.

Well this is a mouth full. Hope it gives food for thought.

Peck

4

I am deffinately going to go with a taper. Now for the cycle itself…would you reccomend just the 600mg of test e or stacking it with the EQ too? My only hesitation is cost. It’s just about twice as expensive to add it in.

5

Here’s a post from one of the bigger, more advanced guys out there. It’s not directed at you, OP, necessarily, but if you recognize yourself in this, then you are a step closer to identifying your problem.

My guess is that if your diet and training are what they should be then you should not lose all (or even most) of your gains post cycle.

[quote]
Guys who gain 25-30lbs. per cycle

posted by Phreezer

Here’s some info for guys who want to gain 20-25lbs on a cycle.

Everyone wants to know how to gain high poundages on a cycle. We’ve all got a “friend” in a gym somewhere that gained 25lbs on his last cycle and we want to do the same.
We ask ourselves “What is his secret? Is the juice he’s taking that good? Is it a good diet in conjunction with the test… is that what is responsible?” Well, here’s the answer… NO, his particular anabolic compound of choice be it Sustanon, Winstrol, Dbol, Tren, etc… isn’t so great that whoever takes one of those compounds will grow… nor is his diet so “on” that he will gain more than us.

Here’s the truth… and some of you won’t like it… Some of you may even get pissed off… The reason these guys grow so much on their cycles is because they shouldn’t even be using steroids to begin with! And that’s the truth! That may sound a bit confusing… yes? Well allow me to elaborate:

You take a 20 yr old male. He has been lifting on and off for six months or so. He’s about 6 foot tall maybe a little shorter… 5’10" or so… He weighs about 165lbs… He’s got a little bit of definition… nothing big… when his shirt is off people can tell he’s been working out… He decides one day that he wants to take steroids, He sees the really big guys in the gym and he wants to be like them right now… he doesn’t want to wait any longer… in his mind six months has been long enough… So he gets on the internet… he finds a message board similar to this one… he reads a little … finds a hook up… and decides to run 250mg of test and 300mg of deca for two months and ends up weighing around 185 or 190… All of his friends are amazed… he’s amazed He’s put on some size… he looks like a weight lifter… he doesn’t look like someone who could compete… but he looks like he’s finally arrived on the Body building scene.

His closest friends are so impressed that they want to run the exact same cycle … He tells them exactly what he did… how he ate…etc… Now, a few months go by… all of a sudden the kid is back to around 165 maybe 170… He thinks… “Oh man… I’ve got to get back on cycle… I need those drugs to be big… if I don’t… I just can’t grow, Steroids require that I stay on all the time to maintain the kind of size that I want”. I guess that’s what he has to do; huh; stay on all the time?

Now, here’s the reason he gained 25lbs on his cycle… He was so far from his genetic potential that once the anabolic compounds were introduced into his system he grew like a weed… His body didn’t need to struggle to put on that mass, because it was quite capable of adding that much mass naturally… The steroids just sped it up…

it is for lack of a better or more accurate word… a short cut to get to where he could have gotten natural anyway. His inevitable weight loss after coming off his “super” cycle wasn’t from the lack of steroids… it was from a lack of a proper foundation… a Lack of proper training skills, and a lack of muscular maturation.

Here’s the deal… guys who need steroids aren’t the guys who are growing 25+lbs per cycle… they are gaining 10lbs and hopefully keeping 5-8… They are struggling to even do that… I’ll tell you from personal experience… I am 30 yrs old 6’2" … I am 284lbs currently… I am 17% BF (I’m a powerlifter/strongman… so I keep a little extra fat on me). If I wanted to keep the same body fat % I have now and weigh 300lbs… I would have to run a very long cycle…or in all honesty it will take me two full cycles to get to 3 bills…

An average cycle for me is about 750mg Test, 450mg Deca, 300mg EQ and Some Dbol in the front and at the end. Those are some fairly heavy dosages…Why don’t I gain 25lbs per cycle?

Because No matter how much gear I take… no matter how much I eat… my body is so far beyond it’s genetic potential that I simply can’t add that kind of radical mass anymore…

My body does a fairly good job of maintaining mass when I’m not on cycle… but I do drop weight regardless… and in truth, the only reason my body maintains it’s size as well as it does is because of Muscle maturation… My body is used to carrying around that muscle… it’s not a shock to my body to carry it around… And I built a solid mass foundation naturally years ago… I reached my genetic potential before I started using juice… Lifting was a habbit and a lifestyle for me because I played football from Junior high through College.

I’ve worked out in gyms all over the country… and I have been doing so for the better part of a decade… and I’ll tell you, I have seen a lot of little guys blow up for a couple of months from a cycle only to deflate a couple of months later…It’s the truth… Muscle Maturation plays a huge key in keeping mass… that and proper training skills… (and no hitting bench 3 days a week and squating once every few months doesn’t count)

So in truth, when you hear about some guy who gained 25-30lbs off of a cycle… Please keep in mind that he is probably some impatient tiny punk that could have easily gained the same amount of muscle had he just been a little more patient… If he had just been focused on learning how to train… focused on how to eat!

This is a lifestyle… there are no short cuts if you want to be the real deal… There will never be a fly by nighter even win the smallest amateur comp in booney fu*king Iowa if he hasn’t been serious for years…

It’s important that you guys learn that Juice may seem like the best short cut in the beginning… but whenever you add that much mass that quickly from gear… Your body isn’t going to be ready for it… it will literally fight you to keep it… the sudden size and strength will stress the ligaments, tendons, bones and central nervous system and Your body will do everything that it can to shed those rapid muscle gains… Decent muscle mass is only kept through time and hard work (cough… cough… it’s a cliche… but it’s still true)… and it’s important that your gains aren’t so fast that the body can’t adjust healthfuly to it’s new weight gain…

I’ve been on the boards for years… and I’ll tell you, 80% of the people on these boards are wannabes and posers… they are guys who won’t even be working out six months from now… They are impatient and are looking for the shortcut… they may even get a few short term results… but in the long run they will come out behind everyone else…(and when I say long run… i mean less than a year or two)

These kind of guys will never be anything more than a hobbyist… and in truth…that is probably the case in every other aspect of their lives as well, not just weight lifting…

So in the end my advice is this… if you are wanting to add some mass…and you’re stuck… learn a different training method… change your diet… and if you’re a good size… (that’s when everyone who is in the room with you knows you’re a weight lifter… if you walk in a room, and everyone in there doesn’t know that you lift, you are not ready for steroids) then come and sit down… and we’ll talk about steroids… until then, Learn how to train… learn how to eat… and spend some time in the gym… you’ll be so much better off in the end![/quote]

6

Great post Cortes, really enjoyed that read.

7

I definately see the validity in that arguement. My only question/concern is that last time when I was on I reached about 230. Now I weight 235 naturally. Does that mean I have hit my genetic potential? Probably not. But am I closer now that I can get more benefit from it? Any thoughts on that?

8

[quote]infin|ty wrote:
I am currently 6’3 235. I did two cycles two years ago. My first was March of 06 and the 2nd was September of 06. I have been clean since then. My first was 500mg/test e/week, and the 2nd was 600mg/test e /week and 300mg/deca. First cycle was great, the 2nd I still made good gains but I got horrible acne from the deca.

My biggest problem however is when both cycles were done, I lost almost all my gains. I am currently looking to finally elevate my game and start looking like a serious lifter. I am planning on 600mg/week of test e, and possibly stacking it with 300mg of EQ.

I also am considering a test taper, as both times I used “traditional” pct my gains were all but gone after 5-6 weeks. Any advice?[/quote]

IMO it was one of 2 things. either you were overtraining (like most do post cycle, have no idea why people think they can train the same post cycle as they do “on”) or your cycle was too short. seems like the people here favor short cycles, I do not. how long were those cycles?

9

It’s not a matter of how long or short your fucking cycle is!!!

Damn, we’ve been over this with you multiple times.

Your diet is the determining factor in keeping your size. Period. There’s no argument against that. You can train perfectly, but if your diet is offbase, then you will lose your gains.

I have at least a dozen trainees that have never run a cycle longer than 8 weeks a time, made incredible gains because they knew how to eat, followed them with a taper, and maintained damn near all their gains because they continued to eat properly.

I will repeat it again: YOUR CYCLE LENGTH DOES NOT DETERMINE YOUR GAINS OR HOW MUCH YOU KEEP!!! YOUR DIET IS KING!!!

And lastly, if anything, a longer cycle will be more detrimental to one’s recovery and potential for future gains than a shorter cycle will.

World

10

[quote]World1187 wrote:
It’s not a matter of how long or short your fucking cycle is!!!

Damn, we’ve been over this with you multiple times.

Your diet is the determining factor in keeping your size. Period. There’s no argument against that. You can train perfectly, but if your diet is offbase, then you will lose your gains.

I have at least a dozen trainees that have never run a cycle longer than 8 weeks a time, made incredible gains because they knew how to eat, followed them with a taper, and maintained damn near all their gains because they continued to eat properly.

I will repeat it again: YOUR CYCLE LENGTH DOES NOT DETERMINE YOUR GAINS OR HOW MUCH YOU KEEP!!! YOUR DIET IS KING!!!

And lastly, if anything, a longer cycle will be more detrimental to one’s recovery and potential for future gains than a shorter cycle will.

World[/quote]

cause you say something is so does not make it so. you are incorrect on cycle length not impacting your ability to retain gains.

as far as diet is concerned I wont comment on what you believe because I have read no posts from you on the topic so I will just state the facts. diet is simple math. All that matters is that you get enough cals, protein, fat and carbs. if you do that your diet (as far as gaining or maintaining muscle is concerned) will be fine. I do not assume that he changed his diet post cycle. post cycle avoiding over training is “KING” as long as your diet is adequate. I dont create facts or human biology, I am just stating facts.
.

11


I’ve said it before and I’ll say it again.

When I was a child, my father always told, “Remember, you just can’t fix stupid.” He apparently didn’t lie.

World

12

good logic. and again I have called you no names or tried to insult you. how old are you?

13

Statistically, the number of people who honestly “overtrain” at any given time is incredibly small. And a precursor to them being overtrained, in most cases, is an already existing lifestyle where they are sorrounded by a stressful environment.

The time to stop throwing the “overtraining” card around came about a long time ago.

14

[quote]Contrl wrote:
Statistically, the number of people who honestly “overtrain” at any given time is incredibly small. And a precursor to them being overtrained, in most cases, is an already existing lifestyle where they are sorrounded by a stressful environment.

The time to stop throwing the “overtraining” card around came about a long time ago.[/quote]

disagree big time with this statement. most are over trained. just because someone is getting results does NOT mean they are not over trained. gear is the holly grail, on gear it can be hard NOT to get gains… that does not mean those gains optimal.