Thibs New Training Questions #4

Training
541

[quote]jonmb11 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]jonmb11 wrote:
CT,

What do you think of having large amounts (15 - 20 grams) of fish oil everyday?[/quote]

I’ve gone higher than that and lived. The only downside I see is some potential (but not highly probable) coagulation problem. But 15-20g is fairly safe if it is a high quality fish oil devoid or mercury.

Now whether it is effective or needed or not is another story. In some cases it really can help, but in most cases it is probably overshooting.[/quote]

Thanks for the quick reply CT.

The brand I use is from trader joe’s. It’s molecularly distilled fish oil derived from anchovies and sardines. 1100 mg fish oil per capsule with 300 mg epa and 200 mg dha. Does this sound like a good product to you? Also, what are some examples in cases where this much fish oil helps? How many grams would you normally shoot for?[/quote]

What composes the other 600 mgs? That’s really your question…

542

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Markriff wrote:
Coach,
Could you explain in simple terms the word “force curve”
Merci
[/quote]

Not really.

There is more than one force curve.

For example there is the force-length curve which basically establish how much force a muscle can produce at various lengths. Or more practically how much force it can produce at various points in the range of motion.

There is also the force-velocity curve which shows how much force you can produce if you have to go at a certain speed.[/quote]

Because you advice to do different force curves in max reps circuit.
Blast straps, elastic and eccentric-less would be a force curve speed, I think?

But for the force length curve, which would be the best examples?

Merci pour ta reponse precedente.

543

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]jonmb11 wrote:
CT,

What do you think of having large amounts (15 - 20 grams) of fish oil everyday?[/quote]

I’ve gone higher than that and lived. The only downside I see is some potential (but not highly probable) coagulation problem. But 15-20g is fairly safe if it is a high quality fish oil devoid or mercury.

Now whether it is effective or needed or not is another story. In some cases it really can help, but in most cases it is probably overshooting.[/quote]

BTW Thibs… you also suggested this dosage in your Get Jack Fast program. Seemed to work fine for me.

544

You said this in the first page of this thread:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Yes, I found that different muscle groups and movement patterns respond to different training stimuli.

I divide them into 3 groups:

High performance muscles: these are designed to perform powerful actions, they are your “fighting muscles”. The muscles that allow you to throw a destructive punch, or throw a javelin (or a grenade depending on the year) at an enemy. These muscles are commonly known as pressing muscles. Pressing is a powerful action. The muscles involved in it respond best to performance-based training. Heavy lifting, explosive movements, low reps, fewer exercises for more sets. The also respond well to advanced techniques such as cluster sets, using bands and chains to accommodate resistance and also tolerate eccentric loading well. For the upper body we are talking about the chest, triceps and deltoids (front and lateral heads). The high performance pressing muscles should be trained more often than most muscles. Performance development requires frequency.

  • High performance assistants: in the past these were often called “active stabilizers”. I don’t like that term because depending on the movement and type of contractions, any muscle in the human body can be called to act as a stabilizer. Me, I put the muscles that are directly helping the high performance pressing muscles during a pressing movement by providing a strong base to push from via a active stabilization of the shoulder girdle. In that group when it comes to the upper body I put the traps, rhomboids, rear delts and rotator cuff muscles. These muscles should be trained at the same frequency as pressing muscles (during the same workout). They do not need to be trained as heavy and with the same training techniques, but you shouldn’t go light either. Remember that these muscles must be strong enough to facilitate the job of the powerful pressing muscles.

Additional note on “stabilizers”: there is a lot of mix-ups between stabilizers and fixators. The former make a joint more stable by actively participating in the movement while the later simply make the whole body more stable while you are performing an action. Abs for example are often called stabilizers, but most of the time they are actually fixators.

  • Foundational muscles: these muscles are secondary when it comes to peak performance (except for some very specific functions like swimming) but they are still important when it comes to providing the body with structural balance and increase the overall solidity of the body. For the upper body we are talking about the lats, biceps and abs. These muscles respond to a completely different form of training than the high performance muscles. They require more volume, but don’t handle eccentric loading well (and don’t respond well to it anyway), they need less frequency of training and more exercises variation. They respond more to relatively higher rep ranges (6-12) than to lower reps (1-5). Bands, chains and clusters are not very effective for these muscles but isometric actions (either on its own or blended in a set) are. These muscles respond very well to a high volume of eccentric-less work.
    [/quote]

I find this really interesing, but you only talked about the upper muscles. What about legs, calves and forearms? What type of work is better for those muscles?

Also, have you got any book explaining more of this or can you give me a reference for more information about that topic?

Thanks a lot.

545

[quote]Born to kill wrote:
You said this in the first page of this thread:
(…)
I find this really interesing, but you only talked about the upper muscles. What about legs, calves and forearms? What type of work is better for those muscles?
[/quote]

Here’s what CT told me about legs (from page 2):

Would you put legs in the high performance muscles category?
(…)
B.

Correct… that was part of an article about the upper body. Legs are “weird” in that they tend to respond equally well to most types of rep ranges. They also need a lot of volume to grow, but training them with a lot of lifting movements can be draining on the nervous system. The best way to train them is to focus on two big basic movements, one hamstring isolation exercises and A LOT of sled work.

We use heavy squats, trap bar deadlift, front squats and leg press to stimulate with heavy lifting (2 exercises per workout) and bulk up the training volume by doing a lot of eccentric-less work with the sled/prowler.

For example we normally do 3-4 different exercises with the sled/prowler:

  1. Backward walking in a crouched stance (knees bent 90 degrees)
  2. Sled pull-through
  3. Prowler pushing
  4. Pulling the sled, walking with straight legs

Normally we do several sets of 20-30 yards and try to increase the volume over time.

546

Christian

Today was leg day: Front squat to squat to squat from pins, leg curl, sled. PM I did some sets of electro stimulation with max power.

Ramping up jumping 10 lbs. But squatting from pins I’m too strong and I saw I was able to ramp up for a long time. So I could do big jumps adding weight but I’m not much comfortable if I do it with 20 lb. I tried to keep small jumps but resting only the time to add or change plates. I was around 5 minutes adding weight nonstop. Heart rate was awesome and strength went up using short rest.

Is it feasible extend from pins using a density approach of ramping?

My legs end up as I show in the pic, even thought I’m came from high reps styles, using your methods I’m yielding this legs.

  • I’m not using ASS: pulse fast and Anaconda protocols with performance foundation training, of course
547

[quote]michell wrote:
Christian

Today was leg day: Front squat to squat to squat from pins, leg curl, sled. PM I did some sets of electro stimulation with max power.

Ramping up jumping 10 lbs. But squatting from pins I’m too strong and I saw I was able to ramp up for a long time. So I could do big jumps adding weight but I’m not much comfortable if I do it with 20 lb. I tried to keep small jumps but resting only the time to add or change plates. I was around 5 minutes adding weight nonstop. Heart rate was awesome and strength went up using short rest.

Is it feasible extend from pins using a density approach of ramping?

My legs end up as I show in the pic, even thought I’m came from high reps styles, using your methods I’m yielding this legs.

  • I’m not using ASS: pulse fast and Anaconda protocols with performance foundation training, of course
    [/quote]
548

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]Born to kill wrote:
You said this in the first page of this thread:
(…)
I find this really interesing, but you only talked about the upper muscles. What about legs, calves and forearms? What type of work is better for those muscles?
[/quote]

Here’s what CT told me about legs (from page 2):

Would you put legs in the high performance muscles category?
(…)
B.

Correct… that was part of an article about the upper body. Legs are “weird” in that they tend to respond equally well to most types of rep ranges. They also need a lot of volume to grow, but training them with a lot of lifting movements can be draining on the nervous system. The best way to train them is to focus on two big basic movements, one hamstring isolation exercises and A LOT of sled work.

We use heavy squats, trap bar deadlift, front squats and leg press to stimulate with heavy lifting (2 exercises per workout) and bulk up the training volume by doing a lot of eccentric-less work with the sled/prowler.

For example we normally do 3-4 different exercises with the sled/prowler:

  1. Backward walking in a crouched stance (knees bent 90 degrees)
  2. Sled pull-through
  3. Prowler pushing
  4. Pulling the sled, walking with straight legs

Normally we do several sets of 20-30 yards and try to increase the volume over time. [/quote]

Thanks a lot. I’ll read the whole thread, there is a lot of information about my question already answered.

549

[quote]Italiano wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]jonmb11 wrote:
CT,

What do you think of having large amounts (15 - 20 grams) of fish oil everyday?[/quote]

I’ve gone higher than that and lived. The only downside I see is some potential (but not highly probable) coagulation problem. But 15-20g is fairly safe if it is a high quality fish oil devoid or mercury.

Now whether it is effective or needed or not is another story. In some cases it really can help, but in most cases it is probably overshooting.[/quote]

BTW Thibs… you also suggested this dosage in your Get Jack Fast program. Seemed to work fine for me.
[/quote]

Yes it worked because the nutritional program in the Get Jacked ebook is low in carbs for the most part, which requires a higher fat intake. And I like to increase fat intake via good fats. PLUS a low carbs diet tends to be high in omega-6 fatty acids which warants high doses of omega-3.

550

[quote]Born to kill wrote:
You said this in the first page of this thread:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Yes, I found that different muscle groups and movement patterns respond to different training stimuli.

I divide them into 3 groups:

High performance muscles: these are designed to perform powerful actions, they are your “fighting muscles”. The muscles that allow you to throw a destructive punch, or throw a javelin (or a grenade depending on the year) at an enemy. These muscles are commonly known as pressing muscles. Pressing is a powerful action. The muscles involved in it respond best to performance-based training. Heavy lifting, explosive movements, low reps, fewer exercises for more sets. The also respond well to advanced techniques such as cluster sets, using bands and chains to accommodate resistance and also tolerate eccentric loading well. For the upper body we are talking about the chest, triceps and deltoids (front and lateral heads). The high performance pressing muscles should be trained more often than most muscles. Performance development requires frequency.

  • High performance assistants: in the past these were often called “active stabilizers”. I don’t like that term because depending on the movement and type of contractions, any muscle in the human body can be called to act as a stabilizer. Me, I put the muscles that are directly helping the high performance pressing muscles during a pressing movement by providing a strong base to push from via a active stabilization of the shoulder girdle. In that group when it comes to the upper body I put the traps, rhomboids, rear delts and rotator cuff muscles. These muscles should be trained at the same frequency as pressing muscles (during the same workout). They do not need to be trained as heavy and with the same training techniques, but you shouldn’t go light either. Remember that these muscles must be strong enough to facilitate the job of the powerful pressing muscles.

Additional note on “stabilizers”: there is a lot of mix-ups between stabilizers and fixators. The former make a joint more stable by actively participating in the movement while the later simply make the whole body more stable while you are performing an action. Abs for example are often called stabilizers, but most of the time they are actually fixators.

  • Foundational muscles: these muscles are secondary when it comes to peak performance (except for some very specific functions like swimming) but they are still important when it comes to providing the body with structural balance and increase the overall solidity of the body. For the upper body we are talking about the lats, biceps and abs. These muscles respond to a completely different form of training than the high performance muscles. They require more volume, but don’t handle eccentric loading well (and don’t respond well to it anyway), they need less frequency of training and more exercises variation. They respond more to relatively higher rep ranges (6-12) than to lower reps (1-5). Bands, chains and clusters are not very effective for these muscles but isometric actions (either on its own or blended in a set) are. These muscles respond very well to a high volume of eccentric-less work.
    [/quote]

I find this really interesing, but you only talked about the upper muscles. What about legs, calves and forearms? What type of work is better for those muscles?

Also, have you got any book explaining more of this or can you give me a reference for more information about that topic?

Thanks a lot.
[/quote]

I got a monster article coming up, probably this upcoming week, explaining it all in more depth.

No there is no book discussing it because, to the best of my knowledge I’m the first one to divide muscle like this.

551

[quote]BiP wrote:

[quote]Born to kill wrote:
You said this in the first page of this thread:
(…)
I find this really interesing, but you only talked about the upper muscles. What about legs, calves and forearms? What type of work is better for those muscles?
[/quote]

Here’s what CT told me about legs (from page 2):

Would you put legs in the high performance muscles category?
(…)
B.

Correct… that was part of an article about the upper body. Legs are “weird” in that they tend to respond equally well to most types of rep ranges. They also need a lot of volume to grow, but training them with a lot of lifting movements can be draining on the nervous system. The best way to train them is to focus on two big basic movements, one hamstring isolation exercises and A LOT of sled work.

We use heavy squats, trap bar deadlift, front squats and leg press to stimulate with heavy lifting (2 exercises per workout) and bulk up the training volume by doing a lot of eccentric-less work with the sled/prowler.

For example we normally do 3-4 different exercises with the sled/prowler:

  1. Backward walking in a crouched stance (knees bent 90 degrees)
  2. Sled pull-through
  3. Prowler pushing
  4. Pulling the sled, walking with straight legs

Normally we do several sets of 20-30 yards and try to increase the volume over time. [/quote]

Exactly right. And this will be discussed in a huge article very soon.

552

Coach,
When you start for activation like heavy partial it’s better to ramp or start white 85% or more?
Merci

553

CT, Would you consider the Split Jerk a good movement choice for heavy performance pressing, or would it be better as an activation movement because of the movement skill involved?

554

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Born to kill wrote:
You said this in the first page of this thread:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Yes, I found that different muscle groups and movement patterns respond to different training stimuli.

I divide them into 3 groups:

High performance muscles: these are designed to perform powerful actions, they are your “fighting muscles”. The muscles that allow you to throw a destructive punch, or throw a javelin (or a grenade depending on the year) at an enemy. These muscles are commonly known as pressing muscles. Pressing is a powerful action. The muscles involved in it respond best to performance-based training. Heavy lifting, explosive movements, low reps, fewer exercises for more sets. The also respond well to advanced techniques such as cluster sets, using bands and chains to accommodate resistance and also tolerate eccentric loading well. For the upper body we are talking about the chest, triceps and deltoids (front and lateral heads). The high performance pressing muscles should be trained more often than most muscles. Performance development requires frequency.

  • High performance assistants: in the past these were often called “active stabilizers”. I don’t like that term because depending on the movement and type of contractions, any muscle in the human body can be called to act as a stabilizer. Me, I put the muscles that are directly helping the high performance pressing muscles during a pressing movement by providing a strong base to push from via a active stabilization of the shoulder girdle. In that group when it comes to the upper body I put the traps, rhomboids, rear delts and rotator cuff muscles. These muscles should be trained at the same frequency as pressing muscles (during the same workout). They do not need to be trained as heavy and with the same training techniques, but you shouldn’t go light either. Remember that these muscles must be strong enough to facilitate the job of the powerful pressing muscles.

Additional note on “stabilizers”: there is a lot of mix-ups between stabilizers and fixators. The former make a joint more stable by actively participating in the movement while the later simply make the whole body more stable while you are performing an action. Abs for example are often called stabilizers, but most of the time they are actually fixators.

  • Foundational muscles: these muscles are secondary when it comes to peak performance (except for some very specific functions like swimming) but they are still important when it comes to providing the body with structural balance and increase the overall solidity of the body. For the upper body we are talking about the lats, biceps and abs. These muscles respond to a completely different form of training than the high performance muscles. They require more volume, but don’t handle eccentric loading well (and don’t respond well to it anyway), they need less frequency of training and more exercises variation. They respond more to relatively higher rep ranges (6-12) than to lower reps (1-5). Bands, chains and clusters are not very effective for these muscles but isometric actions (either on its own or blended in a set) are. These muscles respond very well to a high volume of eccentric-less work.
    [/quote]

I find this really interesing, but you only talked about the upper muscles. What about legs, calves and forearms? What type of work is better for those muscles?

Also, have you got any book explaining more of this or can you give me a reference for more information about that topic?

Thanks a lot.
[/quote]

I got a monster article coming up, probably this upcoming week, explaining it all in more depth.

No there is no book discussing it because, to the best of my knowledge I’m the first one to divide muscle like this.[/quote]

Really nice, I can’t wait for that article.
Sorry for my stupid question, but where will be the article published? I am new at T-Nation and I don’t find most of your stuff.

Thanks for your answer and for your good job.

Greetings!

555

[quote]itisfinished wrote:
CT, Would you consider the Split Jerk a good movement choice for heavy performance pressing, or would it be better as an activation movement because of the movement skill involved? [/quote]

Unless you are a competitive olympic lifter there is no reason to perform a split jerk. The split is only used by competitors to get under the bar lower so that they don’t have to lift the bar as high (a technical “trick” that allows them to lift more weight in competition).

For an athlete the push jerk (a jerk without splitting, catching the bar in a slight knee bend only) is much more effective and actually lead to a greater power output (power = force x distance / time … so if you have to push the bar higher, you must produce more power), and it is less technically difficult.

556

Coach,
When you do max reps circuit, you must use the same movement pattern for all exercises?
Merci

557

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]itisfinished wrote:
CT, Would you consider the Split Jerk a good movement choice for heavy performance pressing, or would it be better as an activation movement because of the movement skill involved? [/quote]

Unless you are a competitive olympic lifter there is no reason to perform a split jerk. The split is only used by competitors to get under the bar lower so that they don’t have to lift the bar as high (a technical “trick” that allows them to lift more weight in competition).
[/quote]
I thought the split jerk was used more than a push jerk because it is much easier to lose a bar in front than it is from side to side, so the push jerk technique leaves little room for error.

558

Coach:

Curious about your opinion regarding latest pressing WO.

I did a press WO Saturday and hit a new PR in standing milt (215). I had done one arm DB snatch then to stand milt then push press to max single.

Took Sunday off.

Felt so good today I wanted to press again so did following:

One arm DB Push Press: 45x2, 55x2, 65x2, 75x2, 85x2, 95x2, 105x1, 115x1
Stopped there because it was a slower rep, can usually get 120 or 125 x 1.

BB Push Press: 135x3, 150x3, 165x3, 180x3, 195x3, 205x3, 215x3, 225x3, 230x3 (PR) - [all sets superset with DB Shrugs]

SA DB Ext rotation for 3 sets - called it a day.

What surprised me is that this was just two days after hitting stand milt press PR and not doing that well in push press thereafter (Sat).
Just two days rest and hitting a new 3RM PR in push press.

Due to supersetting with shrugs? Activated from Sat WO still? Ramping? Not used to setting 2 new PR’s in 2 days in same movement pattern - thanks for tips, it’s working!

559

CANADIAN BEAR TRAINING:

Hi Coach Thibs & All,

The specific thread for this programme is closed so I hope you dont mind me posting here. I am currently on week 8 (de load week) of the Canadian Density Bear Training Programme. I have had some issues, progress, results so I thought I would share them here and see if anyone else had similar results.

  1. This programme has given me doms like I never thought possible. The first few weeks I was literally in agony after every workout with doms.

  2. I am unable to peform a bi-lateral leg movement or deadlift on the overall day due to doms from the deadlift day and very stiff lower back. I have usually replaced the squat with either single leg split squats, single leg leg presses or lunges. The deadlift is replaced with chins!

  3. Normally a very enthusiastic deadlifter, I have had to rotate conventional deadifts from the ground, with rack pulls, speed deadlifts and deadlifts from a deficit, purely due to doms. However, overall my dead lift has increased.

  4. Despite not having done an arm curl or an isolation exercise in over 8 weeks, I have not noticed any reduction in arm size. My chin up strength has increased to the point where I can comfortably chin 46kg * 3 reps. My back has also increased in thickness and size due to the deadlifts and chins, with limited horizontal rowing.

  5. My leg size, I believe has increased a lot, due to the fact I am working them in some shape or form three times a week. My leg press has increased. I will know for sure about my squat in a couple of weeks. I havent done a leg curl or leg extenson in weeks. Whilst my knees are now starting to feel the stress, I believe this program has helped me build up a tolerance to more frequent leg training.

  6. My bench seems to have stalled and sometimes I have days where I seem to go backwards on the bench, but then increase the weight on dips, (which I substituted for partial bench).

I realise this was a bit of a ramble, but this programme has definelty helped me gain mass and strength in some areas whilst not all. Does anyone have any similar experiences?

Thanks
Scott

560

CT,

Do you believe that after someone bulks up to a certain weight, they should try to maintain that weight for a certain amount of time before trying to lose some of the fat that came along with the bulking? Would this help them retain more muscle mass while cutting? And if you believe this, how long should someone maintain their new weight before cutting?