Thibs New Training Questions #3

Bigger Stronger Leaner Christian Thibaudeau Coaching
1041

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]kaoticz wrote:
CT,
I’ve read in many places that working legs is absolutely neccesary if you want to make OVERALL gains… on many forums aswell in response to people asking to get a bigger upper body “experts” would reply “squat and deadlift”.
Now my question is, say your goals with training is to get an athletic lean looking body (180lb at 5"9 or so) and your legs are at a satisfactory development (i specialised legs when training for bbal for like 6 months) do you need to train them still to make the gains you want? or are upperbody workouts enough?
Thanks in advance![/quote]

I don’t like this question because 9 times out of 10 it comes from someone who is looking for an excuse not to train legs. And even if you could legitimately do without leg work because your legs really are overpowering then a lot of people who have no business not training legs will use the fact that I said that it was okay not to train legs.

I’ll tell you that 90% of the population should train their legs. A few exceptions do not have to because they are already very muscular. Myself for example, for roughly 12 years I squatted at least 3 times a week. For 5 years as an olympic lifter I actually squatted 6 days a week, sometimes twice a day. I can honestly say that I do not need to train them and they still look better than most people who train them hard.

But I still do train legs, albeit not at the same frequency as everything else.

6 months of leg specialization doesn’t justify not training legs at all. So you can’t use that as an excuse not to train legs… you don’t HAVE to train them (and you probably wont) but the only excuse you can use is that you don’t feel like training them.

But to answer your question, leg work is not necessary to make the upper body grow. Happy?[/quote]

Coach,
Thanks for the reply, I was just wondering what you thought on the topic, I’m still going to train legs dont worry but like you said, the frequency and volume will be lower than upperbody.

I’ve got another question lol :slight_smile:
I seem to have terrible CNS recovery… I cannot workout on back to back days without feeling neural fatigue, loss of concentration and over a couple weeks loss of motivation and aching joints…
I train low volume and fairly high intensity (relatively) and move very light weights…(squat 5RM is 100kg , bench 70kg, pullups 5-8 with added 15kg)… I weigh 70kg
this is what I’d typically do for a chest/shoulder/tri’s session

bench - ramp to top set of 5
Dumbbell benches 3x8-12
Lateral raises 3x12
Tricep pushdowns 3x12

I can do that once a week along with a leg workout and a back+ bis’s workout but any added frequency or volume i start to get real fatigued. Alot of people that write on these forums and others seem to be training 5-6 days a week with no trouble… and some do more volume than me and MOST lift heavier weights

Just wondering, what are your thoughts on how people with poor CNS recovery should aim to stucture their training?
Thanks!

1042

Thibs, around page 30-32 a sample “Push” day was linked that you talked about in an interview.

I was wondering what the other days would look like?

Would something like:

Legs:
A. Front Squat Microramping to a 3-5RM
B. Back Squat, 3 Ramping sets, starting at the heaviest set you did for Front Squats
C. Barbell Lunge, 1 set Max Reps
D. SLDL, 1 Set Max Reps

Pull:
A. Pullups, 5-6 sets ramping up from Bodyweight
B. 45 Degree Barbell Row, 3 sets Ramping
C. Deadlift, 3 sets ramping, starting at the heaviest set you did for Barbell Rows

be in the same vein?

1043

Coach CT,

I’m trying to correct an imbalance with a relative weakness in my upperback, rear delt, rotator cuff muscles. How would you emphasize this area in a training split? Would you do a specialization workout or hit them multiple times per week after other body parts? Thanks for all your help.

1044

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]Daveski7 wrote:
Thibs was wondering what style of benching do you prefer, elbows tucked close grip, shoulder width slight flare, wide grip slight flare or basically all flare? Does it vary depending on incline, flat, decline?

Was wondering about my upper body perfomance day, what about
top half shoulder press
top half incline bench press
sticking point flat bench
top half bench press

then trap, rhomboid, and tricep work?[/quote]

  1. I personally bench press this way:

1.1 Elbows semi-tucked in (roughly a 45 degrees angle to the torso)
1.2 Traps contracted hard (imagine doing a shrug) during the execution of the whole movement
1.3 Feet relatively far away so that I can drive with my heels
1.4 Decent arch, but not an excessive one
1.5 I use a relatively narrow grip (about an inch wider than shoulder width)

  1. All my pressing are done in a similar way. Heck, I even initiate my military presses by shruging

  2. It is a decent workout, but I would only do it for half the workouts (I recommend 2 upper body performance days) the only one I would include full range of motion exercises otherwise you will have very little, if any transfer to the full movements.

Also consider that lifts from pins (a deadstop) are more neurally demanding than regular lifts so 4 partial lifts from pins will require that you pay close attention to how your body is reacting.

  1. You don’t have to work all the assistance muscles in the same workout. You can work half of them in the first upper body perfomance session and the other half in the second session. I’m all about doing more volume. But always keep in mind the finances of training: sometimes “investing” in one more exercise might lead to worst performances on the next 1 or 2 workouts, which is not a good investment.
    [/quote]

Alright thanks coach food for the wise. I will remember that. And as far as benching goes i am pretty similar in style but i use 2 styles, i will rotate them every couple weeks. 1. is elbows tucked close grip, and slightly wider than shoulder grip slight elbow tuck, and ofcourse traps contracted, slight arch, and i drive the the feet with the glutes on the bench.

And when you talk about the elbow rotational thing i get kinda lost i have no idea how to do that on a barbell. I see how its done with bands but no idea with the barbell or dumbell. I cant see how you can still grip the bar with max force and do that at the same time.

Also for the assistance is it metabolically more efficient for them in a circuit with auto-reg then move on or straight sets?

1045

Hey CT, any opinion on smith machine front squats for bodybuilding purposes? Unfortunately a smith machine is my only option for squatting now, unless I were to clean the weight up or something. Basically I have to do it, but I’d still be interested in your opinion.

Also, I have a front squat goal that I set, do you think there will be any significant transfer from the smith front squat to BB front squat? I would think not too much, maybe like 10lb for a 50lb smith increase or something just due to lack of practice with it.

1046

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Hey CT, any opinion on smith machine front squats for bodybuilding purposes? Unfortunately a smith machine is my only option for squatting now, unless I were to clean the weight up or something. Basically I have to do it, but I’d still be interested in your opinion.

Also, I have a front squat goal that I set, do you think there will be any significant transfer from the smith front squat to BB front squat? I would think not too much, maybe like 10lb for a 50lb smith increase or something just due to lack of practice with it. [/quote]

I don’t like the Smith machine for squatting, but if used smartly it is not as bad and evil as many would have you believe. And the front squat is not as bad as the back squat because it is a more linear movement by nature.

As far as the transfer goes, it’s hard to tell because the feeling of the bar and stability (with the smith you wont tend to lose the bar forward) is not the same. But my guess would be that if you perform other lower body movements with free weights (deadlifts for example) then the transfer should be fairly good. From experience it will take 2-3 weeks to transfer them though.

1047

for the I,BODYBUILDER workouts. when its like a1 a2 a3 a4 a5 and in the video u do those workouts in order i cant do it like that. haha at my golds gym it would be impossible cause using that much equipment at a time the people at my gym get pissed off. is it ok to do like the 5 sets of a1 and then do the 5 sets of a2 and so on and so on instead of a set counting as a1 a2 a3 a4 a5?
hope what i said makes sense…

1048

[quote]nickacc22 wrote:
for the IBB workouts. when its like a1 a2 a3 a4 a5 and in the video u do those workouts in order i cant do it like that. haha at my golds gym it would be impossible cause using that much equipment at a time the people at my gym get pissed off. is it ok to do like the 5 sets of a1 and then do the 5 sets of a2 and so on and so on instead of a set counting as a1 a2 a3 a4 a5?
hope what i said makes sense…
[/quote]

No it’s not.

1049

[quote]pumped340 wrote:
Hey CT, any opinion on smith machine front squats for bodybuilding purposes? Unfortunately a smith machine is my only option for squatting now, unless I were to clean the weight up or something. Basically I have to do it, but I’d still be interested in your opinion.

Also, I have a front squat goal that I set, do you think there will be any significant transfer from the smith front squat to BB front squat? I would think not too much, maybe like 10lb for a 50lb smith increase or something just due to lack of practice with it. [/quote]

How much can you clean? (1RM)
How much can you front squat?

I just have a barbell and I always clean it and then front squat. Unless you’re a lot better at front squatting than cleaning, this will work fine. If it’s possible, you could also ask some people to add plates to the bar after you’ve cleaned it.

If you have a way to set up for Zercher squats (for example, put the parts of the bar where the plates are on two benches), I think you could see some transfer to your front squat (given that you’ve got the technique down).

1050

CT, What are your thoughts on BB bent/side press?

About 5years ago I loved this exercise because it helped my bench a lot and fun. I also incorporated lots of other oldtime lifts (One arm DL, One arm DB snatch, 2hand DB push press, Anderson SQ, DB swing etc) into my routine almost just for fun however never did these kind exercise these days.
Now I’m doing kinda high frequent lower body spec routine but a little bit bored today so I did heavy singles of BB bent press after SQ and DL…Wow! what a fun! It’s been a while to do this one but really enjoyed.

You say one arm DB snatch is your favorite (I love this one, too) but how about one arm BB snatch?
Do you have any other favorite/effective/enjoyable oldtime lifts?
For now, nothing beats BB bent press for me but now I’m reading oldtime strongman books again and looking for new one.

Thanks.

1051

CT
Veering slightly off-topic and realizing it’s not necessarily a simple question:

I was looking back on your Superhero Program from the Hollywood Muscle roundtable…
(and needing to apply this knowledge in the real world)

Knowing what you know now (and with new supps) what (if any) changes would you make to the program?

1052

[quote]Kamikaze outcast wrote:
CT, What are your thoughts on BB bent/side press?

About 5years ago I loved this exercise because it helped my bench a lot and fun. I also incorporated lots of other oldtime lifts (One arm DL, One arm DB snatch, 2hand DB push press, Anderson SQ, DB swing etc) into my routine almost just for fun however never did these kind exercise these days.
Now I’m doing kinda high frequent lower body spec routine but a little bit bored today so I did heavy singles of BB bent press after SQ and DL…Wow! what a fun! It’s been a while to do this one but really enjoyed.

You say one arm DB snatch is your favorite (I love this one, too) but how about one arm BB snatch?
Do you have any other favorite/effective/enjoyable oldtime lifts?
For now, nothing beats BB bent press for me but now I’m reading oldtime strongman books again and looking for new one.

Thanks.[/quote]

When I was competing in olympic lifting I actually trained the 1-arm barbell snatch a lot. I actually worked up to 165lbs. I wouldn’t use it with a client, unless he is already good at the traditional olympic lifts and 1-arm DB snatch though.

I personally do not like the bent press. When you are good at it, it is amazingly impressing. And it is a good torso builder. If you enjoy it, fine. I have not problem with that. But to me it’s all about the finances of training. The time it will take for someone to learn to do it efficiently and safely is not worth the results you will get from it.

1053

I posted this in the beginner forum this morning and its not getting much response, and I made it after reading your articles, so Ill post it here to.

Is the link where I go into actual exercises I do, but the main question is:

When training chest/tris back/bis legs/shoulders twice a week, Should I do a heavy day and light day, or should I keep doing the same weight and reps?

1054

CT
I just want to thank you for doing what you are doing. All of your articles, videos and anwsers to questions are great and making me more interested in lifting and the sport than I have ever been. Please keep it up and I will keep following.

1055

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

[quote]liffy wrote:
What is the reasoning behind having facepulls etc. on push-day, and not together with pulls? [/quote]

It’s technically not called a"push day". In this split I call it the “upper body performance day”. Basically it consists of pressing for performance and the muscle directly supporting that function, specifically the shoulder girdle musculature which includes the rhomboids, traps and rotator cuffs.

And the other “upper body” day is NOT called a pulling day. It’s a “foundation day” where you train the lats, biceps, abs, calves and some forearms.

Not the same as the traditional push-pull-leg split[/quote]

Curious about this split.

  1. Do your upper body performance days follow the same format, e.g.:
  • Activation (plyo or pin press clusters), OHP, Incline bench, Bench - ramping sets of 3 + max rep circuit?
  1. I’m still into that DUP format we discussed earlier, so did you consider or try:

1st day - ramping sets of 3s + one max rep set
2nd day - high rep curcuit, eccentric-less work
3rd day - ramping sets of 3s or 5s + strength and/or isolation circuit

  1. I’m guessing option 1. above, and that this is a type of specialization training similar to training one quality 3 days in a row?

  2. Foundation training, only vertical pulling for lats, or do you also include rows?

  3. Hip dominant leg day is also pulls/rows or olympic type pulling (explosive)?

  4. What is the 2nd rule of Fight Club?

1056

[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
Curious about this split.

  1. Do your upper body performance days follow the same format, e.g.:
  • Activation (plyo or pin press clusters), OHP, Incline bench, Bench - ramping sets of 3 + max rep circuit? [/quote]

I just finished writing an article about this split. Once it is edited it will be available. But here is the part about how to set up the upper body performance days.

But honestly there is a lot of room for experimentation. As long as it is performance-based (more sets per exercise, lower reps, heavy or explosive) many different training techniques can be used.

Upper body performance (1 and 2)

First exercise: activation movement. Either a partial lift from pins (if you are very explosive, but lack top end strength) or an explosive movement (if you are very strong but lack explosiveness). A beginner or someone lacking in both explosiveness and strength should prioritize an explosive movement here.

Good choices: top-half shoulder press from pins, top-half bench press from pins, top-half incline press from pins, medicine ball throw from chest, medicine ball throw overhead (push press motion), plyo push-up, 1-arm DB clean and press, 1-arm DB snatch.

Second exercise: Overhead pressing movement (I have found that when I start my workouts with an overhead lift instead of a bench press variation, my shoulders are much healthier and once I get used to bench pressing after the overhead work, my bench actually increases).

Good choices: push press, military press, push jerk, seated barbell shoulder press, seated DB shoulder press, behind the neck press (if you can handle them safely)

Third exercise option A (more general focus): Incline pressing variation

Good choices: high-incline bench press, low-incline bench press, high-incline DB press, low-incline DB press

Third exercise option B (bench press performance focus): Flat pressing variation

Good choices: bench press, DB bench press, close-grip bench press, wide-grip bench press, board press, floor press, top-half bench press from pins

Fourth exercise option A (more general focus): Flat pressing variation

Good choices: see above

Fourth exercise option B (bench press performance focus): Either a second flat pressing variation or a decline exercise

Good choices: same as third exercise option B, plus decline bench press, decline DB press and dips

Exercises 5 to 7: pick one trap, one rear delt/rhomboid and one rotator cuff exercise and perform them as a max rep circuit, using a weight that would allow you to normally get 6 to 10 reps (but donâ??t count them during the set).

Training parameters: for exercises 2,3 and 4 you should train heavy. You can go with ramping sets or 2, 3, 4 or 5 reps. You can also use cluster sets, rest/pause, wave loads (e.g. 1 x 3, 1 x 2, 1 x 1, 1 x 3, 1 x 2, 1 x 1).

You perform the circuit once or twice.

NOTE: I recommend selecting different exercises for the two upper body performance days, although you can also keep the same exercises but change the training technique or sets/reps you use.

[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
2. I’m still into that DUP format we discussed earlier, so did you consider or try:

1st day - ramping sets of 3s + one max rep set
2nd day - high rep curcuit, eccentric-less work
3rd day - ramping sets of 3s or 5s + strength and/or isolation circuit
[/quote]

Actually that is not unlike what we did with Daryl’s later specialization phases (in part because of the discussion we had). And I feel that if you decide to choose a specialization approach, this is one of the best to do it.

[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
4. Foundation training, only vertical pulling for lats, or do you also include rows?/quote]

Rows variations can be included, as long as they are lats dominant. So it really depends on your own muscle dominance. Personally I don’t feel my lats working when doing seated rows, but I feel them fine when doing 1-arm DB rowing (especially on a slight decline, where my hips are higher than my shoulders).

[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
5. Hip dominant leg day is also pulls/rows or olympic type pulling (explosive)?[/quote]

Actually, since I posted the split the first time, I changed it a bit after playing with different options.

It is now:

Monday: Upper body performance 1
Tuesday: Lower body performance
Wednesday: Upper body foundation
Thursday: OFF/Neural charge workout
Friday: Upper body performance 2
Saturday: Lower body work capacity
Sunday: OFF/Neural charge workout

The second lower body workout is mostly sled work (walking backwards in a crouched position for quads, prowler pushing for overall legs, sled pull-through for glutes and hams, Straight-leg walking for hamstrings, sled lunges for overall leg) but I might throw in some higher rep stuff on a few regular exercises or a circuit.

[quote]Blade_MyR wrote:
6. What is the 2nd rule of Fight Club? [/quote]

Pretty much the same as the first one.

1057

Ct, I just finished watching the training video with Dayrl on MD…Was Dayrl usuing explosive reps on all of the exercises? And how do you determine how many reps in a set? when rep speed slows down?..cause it looked like he might have been grinding on a couple of his last reps.

1058

Thibs, in the recent workout splits you have mentioned…

  1. why do you only recommend 1 “foundation” day compared to 2 “upper body performance” days and 2 “lower body” days?

  2. What day would you throw in exercises for back such as seated row or bent over rows?

1059

Coach got some straps today really helped out on pulling exercises when the grip gave out. got up to max force single arm t row of 135 not including the bar felt great.

How i cant wait for tomorrows upper body push

1060

CT
I’m an olifter and i have really weak abs. they are the first area where i really break form when i approach limit weight. do you have any suggestions on how to bring them up to where they need to be strength wise? Thanks