Thibs New Training Questions #3

Training
961

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Here is how I split my own training up and I find that to be optimal to improve pressing strength.

DAY 1 - Upper body performance *
DAY 2 - Legs (quads dominant)
DAY 3 - Foundation*
DAY 4 - Upper body performance
DAY 5 - Neural charge workout
DAY 6 - Upper body performance
DAY 7 - Legs (hips dominant)

  • Upper body performance to me is essentially pressing exercises along with the support musculature. Through experience I found that pressing muscles should be trained for performance while the lats (and some other muscles) should be trained more for structural development (higher reps, more volume). The upper bod performance days basically hit what I call the “football shoulder pad area”… every thing that is covered by shoulder pads: shoulders (all 3 heads), chest, traps, rhomboids.

  • Foundation training refers to those muscles that respond best to higher reps (6-8 for me, but can go up to 12 reps) and plenty of volume. These include the lats, biceps, forearms, abs and calves. I find these areas to respond especially well to very high volumes of eccentric-less training.

  • Quads can handle a lot of punishment and can thus be trained using a wide array of methods, from heavy lifting to high rep circuit work. Among the various muscle groups in the body, they respond the best to including several different rep ranges within a workout.

  • The hip muscles, especially the hamstrings do require a good amount of volume, but of all the muscle groups in the body, hamstrings are the less tolerant to eccentric loading. The key to hamstring development is a small amount of heavy lifting plus a large amount of eccentric-less work.

[/quote]

CT,

So with the way you split up your own training, I take it you think it’s better to lift 6 days a week with just one Neural charge a week thrown in the middle? IE:

Mon: Push
Tues: Pull
Wed: Legs
Thurs: Neural Charge
Fri: Push
Sat: Pull
Sun: Arms

962

[quote]Daveski7 wrote:

[quote]Liv92 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Here is how I split my own training up and I find that to be optimal to improve pressing strength.

DAY 1 - Upper body performance *
DAY 2 - Legs (quads dominant)
DAY 3 - Foundation*
DAY 4 - Upper body performance
DAY 5 - Neural charge workout
DAY 6 - Upper body performance
DAY 7 - Legs (hips dominant)

  • Upper body performance to me is essentially pressing exercises along with the support musculature. Through experience I found that pressing muscles should be trained for performance while the lats (and some other muscles) should be trained more for structural development (higher reps, more volume). The upper bod performance days basically hit what I call the “football shoulder pad area”… every thing that is covered by shoulder pads: shoulders (all 3 heads), chest, traps, rhomboids.

  • Foundation training refers to those muscles that respond best to higher reps (6-8 for me, but can go up to 12 reps) and plenty of volume. These include the lats, biceps, forearms, abs and calves. I find these areas to respond especially well to very high volumes of eccentric-less training.

  • Quads can handle a lot of punishment and can thus be trained using a wide array of methods, from heavy lifting to high rep circuit work. Among the various muscle groups in the body, they respond the best to including several different rep ranges within a workout.

  • The hip muscles, especially the hamstrings do require a good amount of volume, but of all the muscle groups in the body, hamstrings are the less tolerant to eccentric loading. The key to hamstring development is a small amount of heavy lifting plus a large amount of eccentric-less work.
    [/quote]

Thibs this is really got me interested, as I am trying to get my pressing stronger.

On upper body performance you do it three times a week, so do you do the same exercises, or is one day chest, the other shoulders ect? Can you show how you would structure the exercises on those days please? [/quote]

CT does a movement not a body part, thats how does it. He start the workout with a pressing movement say shoulders then progresses till hes doing flat bench this technique helps with shoulder activation and proper warm-up if done properly.
[/quote]

I see, so Military, Incline, Flat?

Would this bring down Flat numbers down with doing those two pressing exercises before, I want to increase my bench the most thats why I ask.

Also, where would you put tricep work, if any?

963

[quote]Liv92 wrote:

[quote]Daveski7 wrote:

[quote]Liv92 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Here is how I split my own training up and I find that to be optimal to improve pressing strength.

DAY 1 - Upper body performance *
DAY 2 - Legs (quads dominant)
DAY 3 - Foundation*
DAY 4 - Upper body performance
DAY 5 - Neural charge workout
DAY 6 - Upper body performance
DAY 7 - Legs (hips dominant)

  • Upper body performance to me is essentially pressing exercises along with the support musculature. Through experience I found that pressing muscles should be trained for performance while the lats (and some other muscles) should be trained more for structural development (higher reps, more volume). The upper bod performance days basically hit what I call the “football shoulder pad area”… every thing that is covered by shoulder pads: shoulders (all 3 heads), chest, traps, rhomboids.

  • Foundation training refers to those muscles that respond best to higher reps (6-8 for me, but can go up to 12 reps) and plenty of volume. These include the lats, biceps, forearms, abs and calves. I find these areas to respond especially well to very high volumes of eccentric-less training.

  • Quads can handle a lot of punishment and can thus be trained using a wide array of methods, from heavy lifting to high rep circuit work. Among the various muscle groups in the body, they respond the best to including several different rep ranges within a workout.

  • The hip muscles, especially the hamstrings do require a good amount of volume, but of all the muscle groups in the body, hamstrings are the less tolerant to eccentric loading. The key to hamstring development is a small amount of heavy lifting plus a large amount of eccentric-less work.
    [/quote]

Thibs this is really got me interested, as I am trying to get my pressing stronger.

On upper body performance you do it three times a week, so do you do the same exercises, or is one day chest, the other shoulders ect? Can you show how you would structure the exercises on those days please? [/quote]

CT does a movement not a body part, thats how does it. He start the workout with a pressing movement say shoulders then progresses till hes doing flat bench this technique helps with shoulder activation and proper warm-up if done properly.
[/quote]

I see, so Military, Incline, Flat?

Would this bring down Flat numbers down with doing those two pressing exercises before, I want to increase my bench the most thats why I ask.

Also, where would you put tricep work, if any? [/quote]

Liv,

CT has said that initially your flat bench will suffer, but after a couple of weeks, your number will come back up. CT has also said that increasing overhead pressing will bring up your bench. Lastly, 3-4 sets of isolation work for triceps can be thrown in at the end of a push workout.

964

[quote]thoughts1053 wrote:

[quote]Liv92 wrote:

[quote]Daveski7 wrote:

[quote]Liv92 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Here is how I split my own training up and I find that to be optimal to improve pressing strength.

DAY 1 - Upper body performance *
DAY 2 - Legs (quads dominant)
DAY 3 - Foundation*
DAY 4 - Upper body performance
DAY 5 - Neural charge workout
DAY 6 - Upper body performance
DAY 7 - Legs (hips dominant)

  • Upper body performance to me is essentially pressing exercises along with the support musculature. Through experience I found that pressing muscles should be trained for performance while the lats (and some other muscles) should be trained more for structural development (higher reps, more volume). The upper bod performance days basically hit what I call the “football shoulder pad area”… every thing that is covered by shoulder pads: shoulders (all 3 heads), chest, traps, rhomboids.

  • Foundation training refers to those muscles that respond best to higher reps (6-8 for me, but can go up to 12 reps) and plenty of volume. These include the lats, biceps, forearms, abs and calves. I find these areas to respond especially well to very high volumes of eccentric-less training.

  • Quads can handle a lot of punishment and can thus be trained using a wide array of methods, from heavy lifting to high rep circuit work. Among the various muscle groups in the body, they respond the best to including several different rep ranges within a workout.

  • The hip muscles, especially the hamstrings do require a good amount of volume, but of all the muscle groups in the body, hamstrings are the less tolerant to eccentric loading. The key to hamstring development is a small amount of heavy lifting plus a large amount of eccentric-less work.
    [/quote]

Thibs this is really got me interested, as I am trying to get my pressing stronger.

On upper body performance you do it three times a week, so do you do the same exercises, or is one day chest, the other shoulders ect? Can you show how you would structure the exercises on those days please? [/quote]

CT does a movement not a body part, thats how does it. He start the workout with a pressing movement say shoulders then progresses till hes doing flat bench this technique helps with shoulder activation and proper warm-up if done properly.
[/quote]

I see, so Military, Incline, Flat?

Would this bring down Flat numbers down with doing those two pressing exercises before, I want to increase my bench the most thats why I ask.

Also, where would you put tricep work, if any? [/quote]

Liv,

CT has said that initially your flat bench will suffer, but after a couple of weeks, your number will come back up. CT has also said that increasing overhead pressing will bring up your bench. Lastly, 3-4 sets of isolation work for triceps can be thrown in at the end of a push workout.[/quote]

So using this format, how long do you think it will take untill my bench numbers actually start to go up? and thank you for answering my questions btw.

DAY 1 - Upper body performance *
DAY 2 - Legs (quads dominant)
DAY 3 - Foundation*
DAY 4 - Upper body performance
DAY 5 - Neural charge workout
DAY 6 - Upper body performance
DAY 7 - Legs (hips dominant)

965

[quote]Liv92 wrote:

[quote]Daveski7 wrote:

[quote]Liv92 wrote:

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:

Here is how I split my own training up and I find that to be optimal to improve pressing strength.

DAY 1 - Upper body performance *
DAY 2 - Legs (quads dominant)
DAY 3 - Foundation*
DAY 4 - Upper body performance
DAY 5 - Neural charge workout
DAY 6 - Upper body performance
DAY 7 - Legs (hips dominant)

  • Upper body performance to me is essentially pressing exercises along with the support musculature. Through experience I found that pressing muscles should be trained for performance while the lats (and some other muscles) should be trained more for structural development (higher reps, more volume). The upper bod performance days basically hit what I call the “football shoulder pad area”… every thing that is covered by shoulder pads: shoulders (all 3 heads), chest, traps, rhomboids.

  • Foundation training refers to those muscles that respond best to higher reps (6-8 for me, but can go up to 12 reps) and plenty of volume. These include the lats, biceps, forearms, abs and calves. I find these areas to respond especially well to very high volumes of eccentric-less training.

  • Quads can handle a lot of punishment and can thus be trained using a wide array of methods, from heavy lifting to high rep circuit work. Among the various muscle groups in the body, they respond the best to including several different rep ranges within a workout.

  • The hip muscles, especially the hamstrings do require a good amount of volume, but of all the muscle groups in the body, hamstrings are the less tolerant to eccentric loading. The key to hamstring development is a small amount of heavy lifting plus a large amount of eccentric-less work.
    [/quote]

Thibs this is really got me interested, as I am trying to get my pressing stronger.

On upper body performance you do it three times a week, so do you do the same exercises, or is one day chest, the other shoulders ect? Can you show how you would structure the exercises on those days please? [/quote]

CT does a movement not a body part, thats how does it. He start the workout with a pressing movement say shoulders then progresses till hes doing flat bench this technique helps with shoulder activation and proper warm-up if done properly.
[/quote]

I see, so Military, Incline, Flat?

Would this bring down Flat numbers down with doing those two pressing exercises before, I want to increase my bench the most thats why I ask.

Also, where would you put tricep work, if any? [/quote]

True, the bench numbers would be lower because of fatigue, but overall may increase due to better muscle/neuro recruitment after time passes.tricep work is up to you. I like doing tris on off days because I still like big compounds for them, and like the extra day of stimulation. If they are slow to recover,though, the push day is enough.

966

Who knows how fast anything works? Try it out. after a few weeks of adaptation you will see. Maybe you won’t get a bigger bench at all, it happens…

967

[qoute];So using this format, how long do you think it will take untill my bench numbers actually start to go up? and thank you for answering my questions btw.

DAY 1 - Upper body performance *
DAY 2 - Legs (quads dominant)
DAY 3 - Foundation*
DAY 4 - Upper body performance
DAY 5 - Neural charge workout
DAY 6 - Upper body performance
DAY 7 - Legs (hips dominant)
[qoute]

It depends on you bro i have been using something similar for 2 weeks and my bench has jumped about 15lbs and overhead press jumped 20lbs incline i set a new pr today in so it has jumped a total of 35lbs. Depending on you nutrient intake and your workout intensity and drive to better yourself is whats important.

968

Hey Thibs on say pull day would it be okay to get some lifting straps or hooks, due to a tear in both of my ucl’s due to prior injuies in Wrestling and martial arts at a younger age. they only flair up when i pull heavy weight for alot of volume. Very Rare when it flairs in pressing movements. Also a quick question in your opinion what supplement would help with joint health they dont hurt but they sound like a 90 year olds and i know i work with old people. lol

969

Alright thanks guys I did it today for the first time and it felt good, after the workout i felt energetic, and by the time i got to my bench on the last set i got the weight i would have gotten any other day on a regular workout (doing flat bench first) for 3 reps or maybe one rep short. So i’m actually expecting good results.

One more question though, this might be a little silly but I need to be sure so my mind can be clear.

Every upper body performance you do Military/Incline/Fat right? Or would one of the days Military/Incline/Fat be with barbell the next with dumbbells?

970

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
Alright thanks guys I did it today for the first time and it felt good, after the workout i felt energetic, and by the time i got to my bench on the last set i got the weight i would have gotten any other day on a regular workout (doing flat bench first) for 3 reps or maybe one rep short. So i’m actually expecting good results.

One more question though, this might be a little silly but I need to be sure so my mind can be clear.

Every upper body performance you do Military/Incline/Fat right? Or would one of the days Military/Incline/Fat be with barbell the next with dumbbells? [/quote]

Not sure what the official word is, but I would personally avoid doing the same exercises that frequently. Usually, there is a variant used, such as partials, dbs, etc…

971

Also, the program listed isn’t the end-all beat-all either. Based upon mechanics, dominance issues etc. the program wouuld be slightly different. A lot of people are making gains this way because it is sort of a paradigm shift. How many ppl u know do vertical presses before horizontal on avrage?

972

[quote]Cyrus_99 wrote:

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
Alright thanks guys I did it today for the first time and it felt good, after the workout i felt energetic, and by the time i got to my bench on the last set i got the weight i would have gotten any other day on a regular workout (doing flat bench first) for 3 reps or maybe one rep short. So i’m actually expecting good results.

One more question though, this might be a little silly but I need to be sure so my mind can be clear.

Every upper body performance you do Military/Incline/Fat right? Or would one of the days Military/Incline/Fat be with barbell the next with dumbbells? [/quote]

Not sure what the official word is, but I would personally avoid doing the same exercises that frequently. Usually, there is a variant used, such as partials, dbs, etc…[/quote]

Yeah, I think the movement stays the same (going from vertical, incline, horizontal). Exercises and techniques can change.

973

[quote]Daveski7 wrote:
Hey Thibs on say pull day would it be okay to get some lifting straps or hooks, due to a tear in both of my ucl’s due to prior injuies in Wrestling and martial arts at a younger age. they only flair up when i pull heavy weight for alot of volume. Very Rare when it flairs in pressing movements. Also a quick question in your opinion what supplement would help with joint health they dont hurt but they sound like a 90 year olds and i know i work with old people. lol[/quote]

I know thibs has many people use straps. It reduces overall cns fatigue etc. Generally, the rule is unless you are competing in a pl/ol competition, the need to actually grip the weight is overstated. The point is muscular stimulation, right?

974

Coach,

Do you ever use deficit deadlifts to improve deadlift or do you prefer rack pulls? Also, would you ever do a foundation day for back etc. the day before an upper body performance/pressing day?

Thanks

975

Personally I’d do the simple logic thing, use the deficit version when I have difficulty of starting the weight from the floor, and do rack pulls if I miss the upper portion of the movement, or having grip-issues. :slight_smile: Fortunately I always deadlift from deficit, as all of the plates in the gyms are small in diameter. I have only worked with real oly plates a few times, felt astonishingly easy to start each rep from the bottom.

Nevertheless, I have a question about ramping. I’ve found, that when ramping for pushing exercises, I’m hitting my “max” for the day earlier. Though, for example, when doing clean and presses, I work up to 165 pounds and can get an easy 3 reps. But, whenever I add 5 pounds, I get crashed with 1 good and probably 1 struggling rep. Would it be okay to keep the weight for straight sets, and do as many good reps as possible?

Last time I did pushing I got 7 easy sets for these presses with explosive form (got a real nice pump and soreness, and felt my shoulders on fire, without any discomfort in my lower back or such.) though I have done straight sets. Was it stupid to do so many sets with the same weight? I couldn’t have make significant increase, and I saw no reason to do less, as I had the energy. (I appreciate those writings about the perfect rep, neural recovery, recharge, and every “recreational” stuff. In fact, my strength skyrocketed on most of the movements, I got leaner and no longer feel wiped out or sleepy after workouts. In fact, I’m often more energized, but of course, only after a shower. :slight_smile: )

I’ve found that as opposed to traditional slow reps, this type of training works best for my body-type (I pack on fat easily, had awful endurance, mobility, explosiveness and work capacity before switching to this type of more athletic training. )

For this, I have to thank a lot for these threads, and guys such as Alpha, Synergy93, Professor X, (I know he’s a real oldschool bodybuilder, but after all, oldschool muscle-builders were athletes, and the Prof has an astonishing charisma and knowledge) Hungry4More, CephalicCarnage, FattyFat and so on.

The whole T-muscle site is a collection of gems and treasures when it comes to anything sport-related, and I’m glad that I have access to this all.

Again, excuse my emotional ass-licking mumbo, gonna start medical uni in 3 days, and I’ve become touchy with everyone around me, as If I had lost my childhood or something like that. :D<

976

[quote]thoughts1053 wrote:

[quote]Cyrus_99 wrote:

[quote]Liv92 wrote:
Alright thanks guys I did it today for the first time and it felt good, after the workout i felt energetic, and by the time i got to my bench on the last set i got the weight i would have gotten any other day on a regular workout (doing flat bench first) for 3 reps or maybe one rep short. So i’m actually expecting good results.

One more question though, this might be a little silly but I need to be sure so my mind can be clear.

Every upper body performance you do Military/Incline/Fat right? Or would one of the days Military/Incline/Fat be with barbell the next with dumbbells? [/quote]

Not sure what the official word is, but I would personally avoid doing the same exercises that frequently. Usually, there is a variant used, such as partials, dbs, etc…[/quote]

Yeah, I think the movement stays the same (going from vertical, incline, horizontal). Exercises and techniques can change.[/quote]

Yeah, but it’s not always the same exercises.

For example it might be…

SESSION 1
Standing military press
Incline press
Flat bench press
Decline bench press

Traps, rhomboids and triceps work

SESSION 2
Push press
High incline bench press
Close-grip bench press
Dips

Traps, rhomboids and triceps work

SESSION 3
Top half seated shoulder press from pins
Top half incline bench from pins
Top half bench press from pins
Bench lockout (higher pins)

Traps, rhomboids and triceps work

SESSION 4
Standing DB press
Incline DB press
Flat DB press
Decline DB press

Traps, rhomboids and triceps work

SESSION 5
Standing military press
Hammer strength incline press
Flat bench press
Hammer strength decline press

Etc.

977

[quote]Vejne wrote:
Personally I’d do the simple logic thing, use the deficit version when I have difficulty of starting the weight from the floor, and do rack pulls if I miss the upper portion of the movement, or having grip-issues. :slight_smile: Fortunately I always deadlift from deficit, as all of the plates in the gyms are small in diameter. I have only worked with real oly plates a few times, felt astonishingly easy to start each rep from the bottom.

Nevertheless, I have a question about ramping. I’ve found, that when ramping for pushing exercises, I’m hitting my “max” for the day earlier. Though, for example, when doing clean and presses, I work up to 165 pounds and can get an easy 3 reps. But, whenever I add 5 pounds, I get crashed with 1 good and probably 1 struggling rep. Would it be okay to keep the weight for straight sets, and do as many good reps as possible?
<[/quote]

Yes that’s fine. I would do up and down mini-waves though… Something like this

RAMP UP TO 165 X 3
Then
160 x 3
165 x 3
155 x 3
160 x 3
165 x 3
155 x 3
165 x 3
etc

No specific pattern, just don’t do the exact same weight twice in a row and stop when you cannot perform the 165 for 3 good reps.

978

[quote]Sir Liftsalot wrote:
Coach,

Do you ever use deficit deadlifts to improve deadlift or do you prefer rack pulls? Also, would you ever do a foundation day for back etc. the day before an upper body performance/pressing day?

Thanks[/quote]

I do many different deadlift exercises, but never thrown in randomly. If I will use an exercise as neurally draining as a deadlift variation it must be for a very specific reason.

Rack pulls from above the knees: Don’t do much to increase the deadlift from the floor, but is a good exercise to build the traps and mid-back thickness.

Rack pulls from below the knees: Transfers to the deadlift from the floor performance, ESPECIALLY IF YOUR WEAK POINT IS ANYWHERE BETWEEN MID-SHINS AND JUST ABOVE THE KNEES.

Deadlift from a deficit: Good exercise for those who are weak from the floor. But cannot really be used by guys with very short arms because they wont be able to get into a mechanically correct position (lower back will get rounded).

979

[quote]Cyrus_99 wrote:

[quote]Daveski7 wrote:
Hey Thibs on say pull day would it be okay to get some lifting straps or hooks, due to a tear in both of my ucl’s due to prior injuies in Wrestling and martial arts at a younger age. they only flair up when i pull heavy weight for alot of volume. Very Rare when it flairs in pressing movements. Also a quick question in your opinion what supplement would help with joint health they dont hurt but they sound like a 90 year olds and i know i work with old people. lol[/quote]

I know thibs has many people use straps. It reduces overall cns fatigue etc. Generally, the rule is unless you are competing in a pl/ol competition, the need to actually grip the weight is overstated. The point is muscular stimulation, right?[/quote]

Correct. Even with exercises like the pulldown, using straps can help take the biceps out of the movement and thus focus on the back better.

I personally only use straps on the snatch and very heavy deadlifts, but I see no problem with a bodybuilder using straps elsewhere. Now, an athlete needing grip strength is another story, but you could always work grip separately while still using straps.

980

[quote]Cyrus_99 wrote:
Also, the program listed isn’t the end-all beat-all either. Based upon mechanics, dominance issues etc. the program wouuld be slightly different. A lot of people are making gains this way because it is sort of a paradigm shift. How many ppl u know do vertical presses before horizontal on avrage?[/quote]

None, but they should. It is probably because the bench press is the no.1 ego lift in the world. And people want to do it first in their workout to lift more weight to impress others. But this set-up is probably responsible for a lot of shoulders issues.

Back in the old days of Grimek, Stanko, Davies and Kono (olympic lifters who were also Mr.America) the OVERHEAD PRESS, not the bench press, was the “measure of a man”. And as such they trained the overhead press primarily and the best press, if it was done, was a mere assistance exercise to the press.