Thib Results: Poliquin's Insulin Protocol

Training
161

[quote]fathergll wrote:
Smartmartguy wrote:

huh?? it’s showing in stock when I check?? You’re lookin at the “Insulin” section of Poliquin’s supps right?? I take 2 fenuplex with every meal and use the insulinomics 3 times a day with breakfast, lunch, dinner, one tablet at each of those meals.
.

Yeah Im looking at the Insulin section. I got the link below to confirm if we are on the right page. Its showing in stock for you??

I just checked again… it keeps saying “Out of stock. Will arrive soon.” when I push the add to cart button. Unless that is some kind of error and its lets you order it anyway. Are you seeing that message whey you push add to cart?

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/store/product.php?productid=16153&cat=269&page=1

[/quote]

It May depend on your location. I believe Poliquin’s site asks where you are located. Why not call them to make sure or contact Caroleen for info at:

Caroleen@charlespoliquin.com

162

Thanks…Good idea Black Cat. I just sent her a email.

163

I take Fenuplex after my carb meals, which are usually in the morning and post workout, and I notice how my muscles feel full. I am also seeing how my love handle area is slowly diminishing. I think my supra-iliac is shrinking faster than my subscap.

164

Coach if your subscap and supra-iliac sites went down, yet you remained 2.5% still, would that mean you gained muscle as well?

165

I hate asking a question I am certain has been answered before, but what are the basic differences between someone who “needs” an insulin protocol vs a cortisol protocol?

166

[quote]fathergll wrote:

Yeah Im looking at the Insulin section. I got the link below to confirm if we are on the right page. Its showing in stock for you??

I just checked again… it keeps saying “Out of stock. Will arrive soon.” when I push the add to cart button. Unless that is some kind of error and its lets you order it anyway. Are you seeing that message whey you push add to cart?

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/store/product.php?productid=16153&cat=269&page=1

[/quote]

ahh I see what you mean. I thought you meant it said out of stock all the time, not just when you tried to add it to your cart. Sorry :frowning:

I got confused…it happens alot…

167

[quote]Smartmartguy wrote:
fathergll wrote:

Yeah Im looking at the Insulin section. I got the link below to confirm if we are on the right page. Its showing in stock for you??

I just checked again… it keeps saying “Out of stock. Will arrive soon.” when I push the add to cart button. Unless that is some kind of error and its lets you order it anyway. Are you seeing that message whey you push add to cart?

http://www.charlespoliquin.com/store/product.php?productid=16153&cat=269&page=1

ahh I see what you mean. I thought you meant it said out of stock all the time, not just when you tried to add it to your cart. Sorry :frowning:

I got confused…it happens alot…

[/quote]

Thats ok. It turns out that they do have it in stock and Black Cat was right about the system screw up. She emailed me back and said she had no problem putting in the order and they have had it in stock for weeks now so I just placed my order anyways and it went through lol.

168

CT you said here:

"Thanks for the good words… I need them since coach Poliquin just told me that some of his NFL players lose up to 25lbs of fat and gain close to the same amount of muscle in 6 weeks on the same protocol!!! "

Surely you realise this isn’t true?

Quite frankly the body will not produce 25lbs of muscle even under the heaviest of anabolic cycles.

25lbs of Fat Free Mass is possible, but the % of that which is muscle will be minimal.

The players will, at best be in a carb depleated state, holding minimal water (whether they infact loose 25lbs of FAT or not is another separate matter) and as such once once they resume a diet containing carbs they will rebound and their bodyweight will increase with the increase being FFM/LBM but not muscle…

169

[quote]THS wrote:
CT you said here:

"Thanks for the good words… I need them since coach Poliquin just told me that some of his NFL players lose up to 25lbs of fat and gain close to the same amount of muscle in 6 weeks on the same protocol!!! "

Surely you realise this isn’t true?

Quite frankly the body will not produce 25lbs of muscle even under the heaviest of anabolic cycles.

25lbs of Fat Free Mass is possible, but the % of that which is muscle will be minimal.

The players will, at best be in a carb depleated state, holding minimal water (whether they infact loose 25lbs of FAT or not is another separate matter) and as such once once they resume a diet containing carbs they will rebound and their bodyweight will increase with the increase being FFM/LBM but not muscle…

[/quote]

You can REGAIN muscle you once had at an astonishing rate. Anyone coming back to hard training after prolonged illness or injury (or a tough grueling season) has experienced this. It’s a very different proposition than adding new muscle.

170

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
THS wrote:
CT you said here:

"Thanks for the good words… I need them since coach Poliquin just told me that some of his NFL players lose up to 25lbs of fat and gain close to the same amount of muscle in 6 weeks on the same protocol!!! "

Surely you realise this isn’t true?

Quite frankly the body will not produce 25lbs of muscle even under the heaviest of anabolic cycles.

25lbs of Fat Free Mass is possible, but the % of that which is muscle will be minimal.

The players will, at best be in a carb depleated state, holding minimal water (whether they infact loose 25lbs of FAT or not is another separate matter) and as such once once they resume a diet containing carbs they will rebound and their bodyweight will increase with the increase being FFM/LBM but not muscle…

You can REGAIN muscle you once had at an astonishing rate. Anyone coming back to hard training after prolonged illness or injury (or a tough grueling season) has experienced this. It’s a very different proposition than adding new muscle. [/quote]

You can regain intracellular volume (LBM/FFM) and strength, this is very different to adding 25lbs of muscle…

171

[quote]THS wrote:
You can regain intracellular volume (LBM/FFM) and strength, this is very different to adding 25lbs of muscle…[/quote]

Why are you so reluctant to believe this? Poliquin and Coach Thibs have written about this with their off-season football and hockey players, respectively. Sharp reduction in cortisol thus causing the correlated increase in androgens coupled with the re-introduction of proper diet and supplement protocols.

As jsbrook pointed out, they are regaining muscle THEY ONCE PREVIOUSLY HAD, and perhaps a bit more due to the hormonal environment being extremely conducive to anabolism.

Also, have a look at the post-contest rebound thread in the T-Cell where we are discussing the same phenomena with bodybuilders immediately post-contest.

172

[quote]Affliction wrote:
THS wrote:
You can regain intracellular volume (LBM/FFM) and strength, this is very different to adding 25lbs of muscle…

Why are you so reluctant to believe this? Poliquin and Coach Thibs have written about this with their off-season football and hockey players, respectively. Sharp reduction in cortisol thus causing the correlated increase in androgens coupled with the re-introduction of proper diet and supplement protocols.

As jsbrook pointed out, they are regaining muscle THEY ONCE PREVIOUSLY HAD, and perhaps a bit more due to the hormonal environment being extremely conducive to anabolism.

Also, have a look at the post-contest rebound thread in the T-Cell where we are discussing the same phenomena with bodybuilders immediately post-contest.
[/quote]

Okay I think you need to re-read my comments.

No muscle fibres are being grown as was being alluded to.

Post Comp Rebound is just an increase in intra-cellular volume aka LBM aka FFM. You haven’t gained any extra muscle I’m afraid. But you will look better for it.

173

[quote]THS wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
THS wrote:
CT you said here:

"Thanks for the good words… I need them since coach Poliquin just told me that some of his NFL players lose up to 25lbs of fat and gain close to the same amount of muscle in 6 weeks on the same protocol!!! "

Surely you realise this isn’t true?

Quite frankly the body will not produce 25lbs of muscle even under the heaviest of anabolic cycles.

25lbs of Fat Free Mass is possible, but the % of that which is muscle will be minimal.

The players will, at best be in a carb depleated state, holding minimal water (whether they infact loose 25lbs of FAT or not is another separate matter) and as such once once they resume a diet containing carbs they will rebound and their bodyweight will increase with the increase being FFM/LBM but not muscle…

You can REGAIN muscle you once had at an astonishing rate. Anyone coming back to hard training after prolonged illness or injury (or a tough grueling season) has experienced this. It’s a very different proposition than adding new muscle.

You can regain intracellular volume (LBM/FFM) and strength, this is very different to adding 25lbs of muscle…[/quote]

You can regain muscle. You think you just magically regain strength solely as a result of increased neuromuscular efficiency and the quick 15 lb jump in a much shorter period than it ever took to all get there in the first place with no discernible fat gain is all smoke and mirrors? Muscle memory is real.

174

[quote]THS wrote:
Affliction wrote:
THS wrote:
You can regain intracellular volume (LBM/FFM) and strength, this is very different to adding 25lbs of muscle…

Why are you so reluctant to believe this? Poliquin and Coach Thibs have written about this with their off-season football and hockey players, respectively. Sharp reduction in cortisol thus causing the correlated increase in androgens coupled with the re-introduction of proper diet and supplement protocols.

As jsbrook pointed out, they are regaining muscle THEY ONCE PREVIOUSLY HAD, and perhaps a bit more due to the hormonal environment being extremely conducive to anabolism.

Also, have a look at the post-contest rebound thread in the T-Cell where we are discussing the same phenomena with bodybuilders immediately post-contest.

Okay I think you need to re-read my comments.

No muscle fibres are being grown as was being alluded to.

Post Comp Rebound is just an increase in intra-cellular volume aka LBM aka FFM. You haven’t gained any extra muscle I’m afraid. But you will look better for it.[/quote]

Maybe Thib can set you straight…I don’t have time to do it. This is off-topic for this thread anyhow

175

[quote]jsbrook wrote:
THS wrote:
jsbrook wrote:
THS wrote:
CT you said here:

"Thanks for the good words… I need them since coach Poliquin just told me that some of his NFL players lose up to 25lbs of fat and gain close to the same amount of muscle in 6 weeks on the same protocol!!! "

Surely you realise this isn’t true?

Quite frankly the body will not produce 25lbs of muscle even under the heaviest of anabolic cycles.

25lbs of Fat Free Mass is possible, but the % of that which is muscle will be minimal.

The players will, at best be in a carb depleated state, holding minimal water (whether they infact loose 25lbs of FAT or not is another separate matter) and as such once once they resume a diet containing carbs they will rebound and their bodyweight will increase with the increase being FFM/LBM but not muscle…

You can REGAIN muscle you once had at an astonishing rate. Anyone coming back to hard training after prolonged illness or injury (or a tough grueling season) has experienced this. It’s a very different proposition than adding new muscle.

You can regain intracellular volume (LBM/FFM) and strength, this is very different to adding 25lbs of muscle…

You can regain muscle. You think you just magically regain strength solely as a result of increased neuromuscular efficiency and the quick 15 lb jump in a much shorter period than it ever took to all get there in the first place with no discernible fat gain is all smoke and mirrors? Muscle memory is real.
[/quote]

Link me to a study?

The quick 15lb jump is due to increased intracellular volume. Growing muscle is avery slow process.

Look at Dorian Yates as an example - 5 years to gain approx 30lbs of muscle.

Next you’ll have me beleive that young johnny gained 20lbs of muscle on his first 12 week test cycle… But lost all but 6 lbs due to a bad PCT.

The weight gain is intracellular volume - hence the lack of fat gain, from increased glycogen retention/super compensation and fluid retention.

Heres an example for you:

Train your legs heavy, 3 times per week with high volume, for 6 weeks. By the end of those 6 weeks gains of 1.5 inches are possible. Then stop training them and watch them return to size.

Intracellular volume. The pump. Whatever you want to call it. You sadly didn’t grow 1.5 inches of muscle in those 6 weeks only to loose it.

Take a newbie who wasn’t training, feed him, train him, rest him, and watch him gain 20lbs. Noobie gains. Has he grown 20lbs of muscle? No. His body has reacted to the stimulus, increased glycogen retention and fluid storage while growing some muscle.

176

‘‘Muscle memory’’, or more appropriately the ‘‘plasticity of muscular adaptations’’ is very real.

I have often seen it in action first hand with my hockey players. They will often lose up to 10-15lbs of lean body mass (mostly muscle) during a 82 games (around 150-160 days) season. This is due to several factors:

  • No time to to anything but some maintenance strength training, and more often than not they skip that part unless they are injured. There are some warriors who do continue their workout regiment, but when you are playing every 2 night, always on the road, living in hotels and practicing every day, it is hard to be consistant.

  • Shitty eating habits during the season. As I mentioned, athletes are more often on the road than at home. Heck, even at home they often live in hotels to avoid distractions! So they do not have the luxury of cooking their meals. Most of them thus rely on take-out and even fast-food. Plus, because of their schedule, few of them can eat more than 2-3 meals a day, compared to 6-7 in the off-season (when they do it right).

  • Very high cortisol levels. This is both from the practices/games themselves, then mental stress associated with the in-season lifestyle, the pressure of the game, missing their family, and especially plane travels. Furthermore the fact that most hockey games are played at night completely screws up the cortisol pattern (should be high in the morning than taper off in the evening). They actually have elevated cortisol throughout the day and can even suffer from adrenal burnout due to excessive cortisol production demands. If that wasn’t enough they often take the plane right after the evening games (at around midnight).

  • High cortisol = low testosterone. Both hormones use the same raw material (pregnenolone_. So the more you make of one, the less raw material is available to make the other.

All this creates the scene for the worst possible muscle gaining/muscle maintenance scenario. You are actually in prime muscle wasting shape!!!

Then the off-season comes around and everything changes…

  • Your activity level basically drops to zero, that alone ‘‘frees-up’’ around 3000-4000 calories per day for growth: take the game and practices out and that’s how much calories/energy you are saving pe day. So right off the bat you are in a ‘‘relative’’ caloric surplus without even having to change your diet!

  • If you are a serious athlete your diet becomes optimal. From 2-3 meals a day of a lot of junk and low protein, it goes to 6-7 meals per day, high protein, high essential fats and adequate carbs. Not to mention optimal peri-workout nutrition.

  • From 1-2 weak ass lifting sessions per weak (IF that) you go up to 4-5 high quality ones.

  • Cortisol patterns get back to normal… no external stress and no evening cortisol spike. This also means higher testosterone production.

In their cases the first 4-6 weeks of their off-season they are basically complete newbies BUT since muscle that was once had can be regained much more easily, then they just blow up!

I’ve had my fare share of hockey players gain 15-20lbs in 6 weeks. But I do not mention that fact because to me that is a common thing and it is do to what I mentioned above, not on the superiority of my methods.

A prime example is a player that I trained who went from 165lbs on 6’2’’ to 190 in one summer… then dropped down to 170lbs during the season and finished the next off-season at 200. That last off-season it looks like he gained 30lbs of muscle, but in reality it’s only 7-10 (which is still very good) since around 20 of it was regained muscle.

177

BTW, post-contest rebound is not as good an example because it is not regained muscle for the most part but swelling as it was mentioned. Heck, I once gained 35lbs in 5 days after a contest!!!

178

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
‘‘Muscle memory’’, or more appropriately the ‘‘plasticity of muscular adaptations’’ is very real.

I have often seen it in action first hand with my hockey players. They will often lose up to 10-15lbs of lean body mass (mostly muscle) during a 82 games (around 150-160 days) season. This is due to several factors:

  • No time to to anything but some maintenance strength training, and more often than not they skip that part unless they are injured. There are some warriors who do continue their workout regiment, but when you are playing every 2 night, always on the road, living in hotels and practicing every day, it is hard to be consistant.

  • Shitty eating habits during the season. As I mentioned, athletes are more often on the road than at home. Heck, even at home they often live in hotels to avoid distractions! So they do not have the luxury of cooking their meals. Most of them thus rely on take-out and even fast-food. Plus, because of their schedule, few of them can eat more than 2-3 meals a day, compared to 6-7 in the off-season (when they do it right).

  • Very high cortisol levels. This is both from the practices/games themselves, then mental stress associated with the in-season lifestyle, the pressure of the game, missing their family, and especially plane travels. Furthermore the fact that most hockey games are played at night completely screws up the cortisol pattern (should be high in the morning than taper off in the evening). They actually have elevated cortisol throughout the day and can even suffer from adrenal burnout due to excessive cortisol production demands. If that wasn’t enough they often take the plane right after the evening games (at around midnight).

  • High cortisol = low testosterone. Both hormones use the same raw material (pregnenolone_. So the more you make of one, the less raw material is available to make the other.

All this creates the scene for the worst possible muscle gaining/muscle maintenance scenario. You are actually in prime muscle wasting shape!!!

Then the off-season comes around and everything changes…

  • Your activity level basically drops to zero, that alone ‘‘frees-up’’ around 3000-4000 calories per day for growth: take the game and practices out and that’s how much calories/energy you are saving pe day. So right off the bat you are in a ‘‘relative’’ caloric surplus without even having to change your diet!

  • If you are a serious athlete your diet becomes optimal. From 2-3 meals a day of a lot of junk and low protein, it goes to 6-7 meals per day, high protein, high essential fats and adequate carbs. Not to mention optimal peri-workout nutrition.

  • From 1-2 weak ass lifting sessions per weak (IF that) you go up to 4-5 high quality ones.

  • Cortisol patterns get back to normal… no external stress and no evening cortisol spike. This also means higher testosterone production.

In their cases the first 4-6 weeks of their off-season they are basically complete newbies BUT since muscle that was once had can be regained much more easily, then they just blow up!

I’ve had my fare share of hockey players gain 15-20lbs in 6 weeks. But I do not mention that fact because to me that is a common thing and it is do to what I mentioned above, not on the superiority of my methods.

A prime example is a player that I trained who went from 165lbs on 6’2’’ to 190 in one summer… then dropped down to 170lbs during the season and finished the next off-season at 200. That last off-season it looks like he gained 30lbs of muscle, but in reality it’s only 7-10 (which is still very good) since around 20 of it was regained muscle. [/quote]

Firstly - great post.

What % of LBM gains was scientifically attributed to direct muscle growth, and what % was attributed to glyogen storage/super compensation and fluid retention?

(Bearing in mind your guy was eating junk, 2/3 meals per day, in a state of high cortisol, and the body primed for survival/endurance)

“High cortisol = low testosterone.” Correct. High Test = increased fluid retention (intracellular volume) - Heres a first hand example I’ve seen. Take a guy who’s on 500mg Test E and who’s been running it for a long period. Then take him off Test E for 4 weeks and stop his training. And watch his decrease in LBM and strength. Then stick him back on Test E @ 500mg and watch his Size and Strength increase. The body isn’t regrowing that muscle, its adapting to the stimulus and ‘regaining’ the ‘use’ of the muscle.

Lets not forget the body wants to maintain homeostasis. It really doesn’t want to be a 300lb monster. Perhaps the reason why some Pro BB’ers never come off gear.

So your not regrowing the muscle, as theres no evidence the muscle tissue is being catabolised to that degree - if that were the case, and the muscle was being regrown the gains would be available year on year, which as we sadly know they are not.

Growing muscle is a slow process. As you correctly stated ~10lbs per year (or 1/4lb per week) is possible if training and diet are spot on

179

[quote]THS wrote:

What % of LBM gains was scientifically attributed to direct muscle growth, and what % was attributed to glyogen storage/super compensation and fluid retention?
[/quote]

Do you think that I DEXA all my clients? I don’t have enough time for that kind of trivial forum argumentative mumbo jumbo, I’m normally busy getting results.

If that helps you sleep better a night they normally have a growth spike in weight of around 5lbs that first week, then the other 10-15lbs is gained over the next 5 weeks. So it is arguable that out of the first 5lbs around 3-4lbs are from increased fluid storage.

BUT understand that these are not bodybuilders coming in depleted. Heck, if anything hockey players are overhydrated! If there is ONE thing they do properly is drink water, and tons of it! Plus, their in-season crappy diet is loaded with carbs which increases water retention. So really cell swelling will count for little, if any of their regains.

(Bearing in mind your guy was eating junk, 2/3 meals per day, in a state of high cortisol, and the body primed for survival/endurance)

[quote]THS wrote:
“High cortisol = low testosterone.” Correct. High Test = increased fluid retention (intracellular volume) - Heres a first hand example I’ve seen. Take a guy who’s on 500mg Test E and who’s been running it for a long period.
[/quote]

This is one of the worst examples in the history of mankind. It has NOTHING to do with the example of my hockey player. There is a HUGE difference in regaining his normal testosterone production, which is around 7-10mg per day, or 50-70mg per week, from something arounf 4-6mg per day (30-40mg per week and loading someone with 500mg of testo per week!!! We’re talking apple an oranges. Absolutely no link whatsoever.

Obviously anabolic steroids will increase water retention (some more so than others) not to mention that aromatization into estrogen also increase water retention. But as I mentioned it has nothing to do with the example I gave.

BTW, for your information, cortisol increases water retention just as much, if not more so, than testosterone. However it tends to increase subcutaneous water retention while testosterone tend to increase intramuscular water retention (partly because it increases glycogen storage).

[quote]THS wrote:
Lets not forget the body wants to maintain homeostasis. It really doesn’t want to be a 300lb monster. Perhaps the reason why some Pro BB’ers never come off gear.
[/quote]

I fail to see the relevance of this with my muscle regain example. A 300lbs bodybuilder using the whole pharmacy isn’t even in the same ballpark as a 200lbs natural hockey player who trains 4 months out of the year.

180

[quote]Christian Thibaudeau wrote:
THS wrote:

What % of LBM gains was scientifically attributed to direct muscle growth, and what % was attributed to glyogen storage/super compensation and fluid retention?

Do you think that I DEXA all my clients? I don’t have enough time for that kind of trivial forum argumentative mumbo jumbo, I’m normally busy getting results.
[/quote]

Ok. You claimed his weight increase was all muscle. I’m claiming its simply LBM. Theres a big difference. This isn’t some kind of personal affront on you.

[quote]If that helps you sleep better a night they normally have a growth spike in weight of around 5lbs that first week, then the other 10-15lbs is gained over the next 5 weeks. So it is arguable that out of the first 5lbs around 3-4lbs are from increased fluid storage.

BUT understand that these are not bodybuilders coming in depleted. Heck, if anything hockey players are overhydrated! If there is ONE thing they do properly is drink water, and tons of it! Plus, their in-season crappy diet is loaded with carbs which increases water retention. So really cell swelling will count for little, if any of their regains.

(Bearing in mind your guy was eating junk, 2/3 meals per day, in a state of high cortisol, and the body primed for survival/endurance)

THS wrote:
“High cortisol = low testosterone.” Correct. High Test = increased fluid retention (intracellular volume) - Heres a first hand example I’ve seen. Take a guy who’s on 500mg Test E and who’s been running it for a long period.

This is one of the worst examples in the history of mankind. It has NOTHING to do with the example of my hockey player. There is a HUGE difference in regaining his normal testosterone production, which is around 7-10mg per day, or 50-70mg per week, from something arounf 4-6mg per day (30-40mg per week and loading someone with 500mg of testo per week!!! We’re talking apple an oranges. Absolutely no link whatsoever.

Obviously anabolic steroids will increase water retention (some more so than others) not to mention that aromatization into estrogen also increase water retention. But as I mentioned it has nothing to do with the example I gave.

BTW, for your information, cortisol increases water retention just as much, if not more so, than testosterone. However it tends to increase subcutaneous water retention while testosterone tend to increase intramuscular water retention (partly because it increases glycogen storage).

THS wrote:
Lets not forget the body wants to maintain homeostasis. It really doesn’t want to be a 300lb monster. Perhaps the reason why some Pro BB’ers never come off gear.

I fail to see the relevance of this with my muscle regain example. A 300lbs bodybuilder using the whole pharmacy isn’t even in the same ballpark as a 200lbs natural hockey player who trains 4 months out of the year.

[/quote]

No we are still comparing apples amigo. Test regardless of source is shown to increase Intracellular Fluid. Your guy has had a 100% increase in test production according to those numbers, for the sake of argument as you are saying he trains 4 months out of 12 we’ll also his his GH production is up, which will additionally increase his LBM by increasing his intracellular fluid.

Cortisol increasing ECW more so than T is, at best, conjecture.

We’ve had no proof thus far a 25lb muscle gain is possible within 6 weeks. LBM under some circumstances yes. Muscle, no.

You’ve competed on stage yes? I dunno if you’ve competed year after year or what, but you will realise just how hard it is to gain new muscle year on year.

Read any study you have access to - results are always quoted as LBM/FFM and never as an increase in muscle. Because its somewhat difficult to establish just how much new muscle was grown as you have hemocrit, ecw etc etc in the equation to deal with.