There Are No Safe Methods For Recreational AAS Use

[readalot]

EDIT: Moderator edited my thread title but here’s what it was designed to read…

Pharma Forum Description is Incorrect: There Are No Safe Methods For Recreational AAS Use

Here you go. Just in case you are new here, read the Pharma forum description (copied above), and think you are going to get a free lunch. Nope, it’s not happening.

It’s probably not even going to be a greatly reduced price lunch.

There are no safe methods for recreational AAS (i.e., your goal is to elicit a cosmetic or performance enhancing effect) use. No I’m not talking about clinical use for medical treatment from a doctor that actual cares about your long term health. As an example, I guess you could take 0.5 mg/day of stanozolol long term but that’s probably not going to cut it for your body dysmorphia or performance enhancing needs.

This is for you (1) newbies, (2) guys like me who at one point were slightly delusional thinking Anti-Aging Clinics give you anything other than GAINZ and a much lighter wallet, or (3) those generally thinking it won’t happen to me.

This thread continues discussion from here:

Edit the Description for the Pharma Forum

[image] I’d propose changing the last sentence under the Pharma section description to: This forum is intended for the discussion of effective and least harm methods of using anabolics and managing post-cycle therapy (PCT). There are no safe methods for AAS abuse and the current phrasing above gives ignorant and AAS naive individual the impression there are. For clinical anabolic therapy, the user can follow their physicians instructions hence most (almost all) aren’t coming on this forum …

Since my suggestion wasn’t taken by Chris, I figured I would take his suggestion and open this up for discussion and awareness in the Pharma forum. Perhaps it gets informally “stickied” at some point and the AAS-naive can learn they really don’t understand all the potential risks with AAS use. We are still learning the full extent.

Feel free to discuss. I’ve spent considerable energy so I’ll open it up to you Guys/Gals…

[Chris_Colucci]

@readalot

Moderator edited my thread title

Yep, sure did. Because, as I explained multiple times in the other thread, the forum description is not incorrect. You’ve simply chosen to hyperfocus on a single word for no worthwhile reason.

Really, dude, the topic itself could develop into an interesting discussion (glad I suggested you start the thread) but I’m feeling pretty bad that you’re so bothered by the forum description. I suggest doing whatever you can to let it go.

[readalot]

@Chris_Colucci

I’m feeling pretty bad that you’re so bothered by the forum description. I suggest doing whatever you can to let it go.

No worries, I’m fine. Just call me a stickler for truth in advertising. My mental energy and emotional well-being are ok. Thanks for checking and I did let it go right into this thread where it may take on whatever life our benevolent (or not) Creator or Other may have in store for it.

@Chris_Colucci

@readalot

Moderator edited my thread title

Yep, sure did. Because, as I explained multiple times in the other thread, the forum description is not incorrect. You’ve simply chosen to hyperfocus on a single word for no worthwhile reason.

EDIT: A forum using the terms “safe… methods” and “anabolics” in the context of recreational use (95%+ ? posters here) is a very worthwhile reason. Your opinion and my opinion differ. So we can both let it go. Everyone can have their opinion but facts need to be stated correctly. The Pharma forum description gives the reader (some fraction of all site visitors) the impression there are safe methods to use AAS recreationally. Why would T Nation intentionally set up a forum for a topic that doesn’t exist ?

Therefore, a new visitor to this site may immediately get off on the wrong path mentally by reading the Pharma Forum Description. Call me a “softie” that looks out for these kinds of people (I understand, they don’t want my help). The same way I spent too many calories providing counterpoint to Danny Bossa’s well meaning but absolute “road to hell” TOT advice in some instances. That also includes Keith Nichols, Rouzier and his family tree and all the others who (in some instances) don’t seem to give the slightest caution to who will be a casualty 5, 10, 20 years down the line.

However, I understand. No one likes the Debbie Downer who comes to rain on the delusional parade. It’s just not fun.

[readalot]

@BrickHead: I want to sincerely thank you for taking the time to write this gem. Should be required reading for anyone looking to get into this hobby. But I understand, change only happens when the individual wants it to happen. Thank you Sir.

John Meadows Case

Before I go ahead and say what I want to, I just want to say here, something as a disclaimer of sorts. I like you and I know you like me. So what I say here is not directed against you at all, but simply a statement about the subject and the bodybuilding scene generally. Usually I refrain from expressing my dim views on some people or practices in the scene, but I think if I simply remain mature and lucid while expressing my views, I don’t see why there needs to be problems considering we’re al…

@BrickHead

… In my view, one can eat all the organic and grass fed items, vegetables, fruits, and whole grains till their hearts content, but this in no way safeguards someone for the effects of decades of drug use in modest to high doses, drugs that one does not even need for normal function unless they have medical disorders requiring them, let alone that they produce supraphysiological levels in the body with which the organs can’t deal. Even if one takes anabolic in low doses, the body is not equipped to handle them without some disturbance at best, and failure at worst. Of course dosage and duration account for the amount of damage or lack thereof that the drugs can induce, but either way, their use is not healthy.

[BrickHead]

Thanks.

Coincidentally, last week I told my uncle and a close natural-pro-bodybuilder friend of mine, after several recent bodybuilding deaths, “there is no ‘right’ way to do bodybuilding drugs”. I do not do drugs for bodybuilding but this is flagrantly apparent.

I have friends who do PED’s. I only pray they remain well.

[wsmwannabe]

I have to agree. There is no such thing as a “safe” cycle. But there are less unsafe ways of doing things. Risk mitigation, not risk removal

[BrickHead]

Yes, but as a non-user, I am assuming this simply means less drugs.

“Monitoring sides”, “checking bloods”, “seeing a doctor” and “talking to a doctor” do not accomplish anything. All those do is simply tell you the obvious: there are abnormal things going on.

It’s sort of like chronically stuffing one’s face, getting on a scale, seeing a doctor, and coming to obvious conclusions. Changing one’s behavior based on conclusions is a different story.

[hankthetank89]

I am not well educated on the topic so i can only express my opinion. Take it for what it is.

I do not like when people use the names of bodybuilders who have died because of this and that issue and tell that its because of steroids. Why? Well, because :

Its just a statisticly significant chance for one of the 50 year olds to be a bodybuilder. And nowdays when youtube and IG is basically the modern Jesus Christ, there is also a huge chance that these people would be known.

And with this chart i just wanted to show that - people die in all age groups. Your chance to die in the ages of 45-54 are TWICE of what they were at the ages of 35-44. And these people are NOT steroid abusers but they all die from the simmilar causes that steroid users do.

In my country some people have died of Covid vaccine. But did they die of the vaccine? No. They died. Just happened they also had done the vaccine not too long ago, and the more time goes by, the more people get vaccinated(we still are under 50%) the more vaccinated people will die. Eventually, ALL THE PEOPLE who got vaccinated will die. Is it because of a vaccine? If someone dies of a heart attack 2 weeks after the vaccine, was it the vaccine or the vaccine just happened to also be there and we just want to demonize it?

I am NOT saying that steroids dont cause any problems.
When i was about over 20, i got into a hospital with a weird hearth problem, and i tought that it was because i was doing steroids. They said i shouldnt ever do any sports and all the usual garbage. Well here i am, more than 10 years later, having used a total of 10 times more steroids than i did before i got sick and for now, nothing says i wont wake up tommorrow. Dont get me wrong, im not saying i am all fine and forever will be.
What im saying is that i dont think we can say for sure that some bodybuilders died because of steroids. People die all the time, and the more people get subscribers on youtube, the more we know people who have died and just happen to also be bodybuilders.

I know there are “studies” that can be thrown around that prove this and that about steroid use, but we have to remember that these studies are done on how people describe their past. So a few people fuck themselves up and mention that they used steroids. Lyle Alzado claimed he is dying because of steroids, but how many people did exactly the same drugs and more, and DID NOT die like he did?
We cant make real studies when we dont keep people in cages and inject them with steroids for 20 years and study them. All the studies done are on info that people provide.
When i was a teenager, we had this local forum, and a crazy guy from that forum went to test some doctors. He said he has gone blind and he is taking stanazolol. Doctor said, that it is because of steroids, and he should stop taking them. The point is that the doctor never checked anything - its just that steroids came up, so its steroids. If a bodybuilder has a sick heart - its steroids. When a 23 year old girl drops dead from a heart attack - its tragic, but no one says - HA!! SEE??? She didnt do steroids!!!

What i do want to see is a comparison study about people who have done steroids and live to see 50+ and are still at least somewhat healthy.
And when i see a study that says that a 40 year old dude has shit heart and says he has done 10 years of anadrol, i also wanna see studies about - how much other 40 year olds have shit heart and have never taken anadrol.

[mnben87]

We do know that AAS has impacts to the heart. Ejection fraction and left ventricle hypertrophy are common. Now what I have seen from the data is that on average someone needs to be a heavy user to really move the needle much.

The users in this study:

Long-Term Anabolic-Androgenic Steroid Use Is Associated With Left Ventricular...

Were fairly heavy users (if we count duration as well as dose). They tried to convert everything to a testosterone equivalent. The average user here was on what they calculated out to be about 675 mg of test, and were on an average of 9 straight years.

[readalot]

Thanks for the posts and consider there may be a fate worse than death. A major concern I have (the major one) that isn’t as manageable or easily measurable (unless you do the work) is autonomic dysfunction with AAS use. The liver, LV hypertropy, lipids can many times be reversed. But messing with the electrical signaling in your heart and head (which I still can’t determine if it’s really reversible) is a scary one to me. It’s a mind f**k. Living many years with AFIB, irregular heartbeat, it’s something to consider, especially if you have genetic susceptibility (substrate):

At the least, run an ECG (EKG) and echo if you are considering AAS and prior to their use. You can’t stop the AAS from acting on your heart or your CNS. They aren’t selective tools.

Long-term anabolic steroids in male bodybuilders induce cardiovascular...

Cardiac autonomic dysfunction in anabolic steroid users - PubMed

[hankthetank89]

Again, all the studies mentioning steroid users only have post-factum data based on what these users said.
In my experience, people downplay or exaggerate a lot of stuff when asked about something.

Also, “all steroids” are just “steroids” ? Which steroids? Who took what, how much and how long? Or it doesnt matter suddenly?

[readalot]

Good questions. I’m sure many of these questions are individual dependent and also dependent on MANY other variables that are extremely hard to pin down in a real-life controlled study. The only answer that REALLY REALLY matters to you is what happens to you with taking AAS. And there’s always one easy way to find out.

Remember the title of my post. It’s a simple statement. Take them at your own risk. AAS use isn’t safe. It’s a simple fix to the Pharma Forum description. That’s all.

As I mentioned before, I tire of having to deal with this on here:
https://statmodeling.stat.columbia.edu/2019/01/28/bullshit-asymmetry-principle/

Brandolini's law

It’s an unwinnable battle but I sometimes give it a go.

And if someone has a safe method, I’m all ears. I haven’t found one on this forum yet.

Please Help! I’d be extremely happy to be proven wrong. Once you tell me, I can put all that extra T, oxandrolone, nandrolone, and stanozolol in the fridge to great use!

Also, the forum was intended for the discussion of safe and effective methods of using AAS. So the Mods may have to take down the forum since there are no safe methods and we’ve all been off topic all these years.

[hankthetank89]

Im not saying its safe.
Im just saying that i am also a bit skeptical about some info on how unsafe it is.

Also, as i have said - if someone would tell me now, that i will die at the age of 50 if i wont stop steroids, or ill live up to 60 if i stop em… well… i dont think i care much for life without different aspects of strenght and fitness…
I definetly wanna live as long as i can, so i am happy to learn and check my health, but if some day i will have to pay - then so be it.
My life would have been a complete shit without all this.

[mnben87]

@BrickHead

Changing one’s behavior based on conclusions is a different story.

Hopefully this is why people are doing these things. I pull blood work, and have changed course before.

I guess my goal with AAS use is to get very close to what my cruise / TRT potential is (actually go a bit past it on blast, and come down a bit on cruise), then stay there. It just doesn’t make sense to me to yo-yo up and down with muscle. Sure, I won’t be 240 jacked, that takes higher dosages than I am willing to use.

[RT_Nomad]

Unless Readalot clarifies otherwise, I must make the inference from all his posts that his sole goal is to breath oxygen for as many years as possible, quality of life be damned.

[mnben87]

Pretty sure Readalot is a lot more jacked than you think. He has had some health scares and is trying to look out for others.

[dptfit]

I like this forum for personal/subjective experiences. I do think we spend a lot of time banging our heads against a wall to tell people what they are doing is dangerous and not to do it. It’s a pharma forum, albeit an educated one comparatively. There is no safe way to do AAS, but I am not sure it’s this forums responsibility all the time to tell people they are idiots, which is often the tone, I’m guilty of it myself . There can be hypocrisy in that. I think there are enough members that help with risk reduction. I think its fine to say “dude, that sounds very dangerous, here are the studies that show what can happen, but if you’re going to do it here is my advice”. Maybe we should start every reply with a disclaimer, then just get to talking about the purpose of the thread rather than turning many into a debate. I’m not sure the posters will stick around, we’ve seen some go silent pretty quick. When that happens, I’m not sure we’ve reached the goal of harm reduction, they’ll go somewhere else or just do it anyways.

[readalot]

Red Herring. Feel free to provide a Safe Method.

[RT_Nomad]

@readalot

Red Herring. Feel free to provide a Safe Method.

Blockquote

Define “Safe” and you will make my point.

[Chris_Colucci]

@readalot

So the Mods may have to take down the forum since there are no safe methods and we’ve all been off topic all these years.

Is there a safe way to hit PRs in a powerlifting meet or to win a strongman contest? Is there a safe way for a bodybuilder to reach 4-6% body fat? Is there a safe way for Average Joe to pull a 2RM deadlift?

Safe and relatively safe are, for all practical purposes, interchangeable terms to anyone with three or more brain cells. The fact that your panties have been in a bunch for the last two days over the word “safe” is, on one hand, embarrassing and, on the other hand, hysterical. I’ll tell you, once again and in no uncertain terms, get over it.