RJ, first time I ever had a problem with you. It’s mainly knocking nurses.
I’m a combat veteran and to be perfectly honest, had it not been for individuals with nurse training such as Prisoner’s, I’d probably be dead right now. If you think about it, nurses are responsible for an unbelievable amount than you give them credit for. Esp. people in the ER and combat-- they save lives and improve lives.
Can you say you do that?
Oh yeah, an no disrespect intended.
World
[quote]muscle_meathead wrote:
Rainjack, what the fuck man? You can’t put some statement like ‘not to be disrespectful’ at the beginning at an insulting and disrespectful statement and actually think or believe that means what you are saying is not disrespectful. I don’t care whether or not people use Nolva and or Chlomid, or do a taper. Picking at hooker/Anthony Roberts is all good and fine, but someone like prisoner or BBB have put hours upon hours into formal educations surrounding this specific type stuff. FOr you to try and disregard and write off someone because they ‘change bed pans and give old ladies shots’ is some of the most sophomoric and transparent bullshit someone can use. Do yourself and the forum a favor and either figure out a better way to convey your argument or shut the fuck up.
[/quote]
Where’s your outrage t the P-man for doing the same thing to Bill Roberts, and Llewellyn?
If you don’t like what I write - don’t fucking read it.
[quote]World1187 wrote:
RJ, first time I ever had a problem with you. It’s mainly knocking nurses.
I’m a combat veteran and to be perfectly honest, had it not been for individuals with nurse training such as Prisoner’s, I’d probably be dead right now. If you think about it, nurses are responsible for an unbelievable amount than you give them credit for. Esp. people in the ER and combat-- they save lives and improve lives.
Can you say you do that?
Oh yeah, an no disrespect intended.
World[/quote]
Nothing against nurses, or the profession in general. My contention with him is that he runs down everyone that disagrees with him.
Can you honestly say Bill Roberts is not qualified to offer an educated opinion? How about Llewellyn?
Instead of offering an intelligent, logical defense of the taper, P makes an attempt to impeach the qualifications of those that disagree with him.
I find both Bill Roberts and Llewellyn to run circles around anyone else in this forum, or any other forum. If I want to know as much as possible about AAS - I am going to one of those two.
If my spleen explodes, I’ll look up the prisoner. Now maybe if he can prove his theory instead of insulting his detractors, I will listen.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Schwarzenegger wrote:
.
As I recall, there mst definitely IS evidence that shows once exo test admin drops below the bodys natural set point, the HPTA begins to pick up the slack, by commencing to release FSH and LH, resulting in testosterone production.
That was the whole basis behind Prisoners ‘reesearch based article’.
I could be wrong as It’s been a while, but even so, I distinctly recal seeing something like this not too long ago, when taking a stroll through pubmed.
Bushy[/quote]
I ask, how can’t this be true? Although my experience is just one taper, by the third week of stasis, my testes were aching, and gaining size. Cortes reported the fifth week for him. That’s evidence enough to me to support what Bushy says above. How could it be anything else?
I wont discuss theory cause I have no background to do so. But come on, almost ALL AAS use (and abuse) have no real research on them whatsoever, no at the real world dose athletes use them anyway.
What I mean is this board and all others are there to provide info… almost all of which comes from purely anecdotal evidence. And obviously, people react way differently to the same drugs that it’s quite sure people will react differently to the Test Taper.
My ONE experience with it has been an overwhelmingly positive one. I’ll do it again for sure. The only thing I dislike about it is the need for the extra injections. That’s it. I kept most of my gains, had not crash, etc. Best PCT I’ve tried. And to date, I honestly havent seen one bad review of it of those who’ve used it. So…
Prisoner and BBB have nothing to gain by proposing or “defending” the Taper, and it has helped a lot of folks on here so I thank them.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
Schwarzenegger wrote:
.
As I recall, there mst definitely IS evidence that shows once exo test admin drops below the bodys natural set point, the HPTA begins to pick up the slack, by commencing to release FSH and LH, resulting in testosterone production.
That was the whole basis behind Prisoners ‘research based article’.
I could be wrong as It’s been a while, but even so, I distinctly recall seeing something like this not too long ago, when taking a stroll through pubmed.
Bushy[/quote]
You are correct, but you misinterpreted what I wrote. There is no research using the tapering protocol as mentioned here, or just the non-stasis portion. Sure, we know what happens when exogenous T levels fall below a certain point, and even the effects of injecting varying levels of T, but we certainly don’t know what happens with a prolonged period of injecting increasingly lower amounts of T. This is partially what I meant when I said we know the physiological principles behind it, but don’t have any direct evidence.
[quote]bushidobadboy wrote:
pushharder wrote:
Well the original protocol remaind unchanged by Prisoner (and why not, if it works well for most), however I have added what I consider to be a couple of fairly obvious (and one not so obvious) tweeks based on the addition of other compounds.
I won;t detail them here, because I don’t want to muddy the water.
If you really want, I can put them together on a seperate thread. However they mostly involve the use of peptides etc and so might not be very useful for those not into stuff outside the realm of AAS.
Bushy[/quote]
I’m interested. The taper thread is filled with so much debate and vitriol that the idea is somewhat dilute, if not partially lost. Like Push, I have the sense that the thinking has changed a little with regard to which other compounds and/or peptides might add to its efficacy.
We can conduct the discussion in PM if you’d rather.
I thought we had put this thing to bed already? I suppose I am being a bit simplistic but over the past few years I have found both Pris and RJ to be very helpful and informative. I like the taper although I cannot expalin it’s method of action as inteligently as BBB or Pris it just feels better.That being said all I would add is look at both RJ and Pris. whatever they are doing OBVIOUSLY works for them and isnt that kinda the bottom line with alot of things in this realm? I personaly wouldn’t tell either of them they were “wrong” just my humble .02
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Instead of offering an intelligent, logical defense of the taper, P makes an attempt to impeach the qualifications of those that disagree with him.
I
[/quote]
On the contrary I have offered an intelligent, logical defense of the taper for years, and I might add, nobody yet has every been able to come up with any data to dismiss my findings and my research.
The opposite is true. People like you assert that people like Roberts et al. who are published (albiet not by reputable publishing companies) or have web sites are more of an authority on this matter then I, just because of who they are. I am simply defending myself by stating, look at our education, and our background and prior to using that argument as your big punch line.
I further point out that there are other ‘known’ experts that actually agree with me -i.e. Cy Willson.
All I am really doing is defending your illogical argument of ‘appealing to a higher authority’ i.e. since these guys have done all this therefore they must be right, by pointing out that their status as authorities might actually not hold as much weight as you would have us want to believe.
yeah I may be bringing these guys down a knotch while pointing out my bacgroud and education to let people know I not just some juice head who dreams up this stuff out of thin air.
Fact of the matter is you hate me, and that is pretty obvious, so having any form of a civil intellectual debate with you is just going to turn into a pissing match, so lets just not go there anymore.
[quote]Schwarzenegger wrote:
You are correct, but you misinterpreted what I wrote. There is no research using the tapering protocol as mentioned here, or just the non-stasis portion. Sure, we know what happens when exogenous T levels fall below a certain point, and even the effects of injecting varying levels of T, but we certainly don’t know what happens with a prolonged period of injecting increasingly lower amounts of T. This is partially what I meant when I said we know the physiological principles behind it, but don’t have any direct evidence.[/quote]
The data gathered however is usefull as we know the way receptors, and negative feedback loops work already.
More E = more suppression, less E = less hpta suppression.
The contention by opponents to the taper is that the receptors operate by an all or nothing approach.
That means if there is any exogenous AAS the hpta is 100% suppressed.
The test taper, gets rid of all AAS and just uses testosterone.
the research shows that the hpta continues to function still when small amounts of exogenous T is injected, and demonstrates that the more T used the less FSH produced, untill a certain point is reach where full hpta suppression occurs.
Furthermore, if we take the fact that the body cannot distinguish the difference between exogenous synthetic testosterone, and endogenous natural testosterone into mind, and then look back to the way the negative feedback loop works, when no test replacement is in use…
At no time can someone who is younger, completely natural with a healthy hpta, eating a normal healthy diet and not subjecting themselves to stress of any kind that would unnaturally reduce testosterone levels go for blood testosterone levels and test with below normal range testosterone level, - This fact alone completely debunks the ‘all or nothing’ contention that opponents to the taper make. Keeping this in mind, you can now connect the facts to reasonably deduct the conclusions I have come to.
If the hpta suppression opperates on an x,y axis -gradually increases as exogenous test use increases untill the point of 100% suppression is reached, then hpta suppression should also decrease gradually as exogenous test use is decreased bellow that point of 100% suppression.
Of course there have been no randomized large scale studies to specifically test the taper theory, however if you look on this board you will find a lot of ‘case studies’ being posted, and so far no unfavorable results.
This is as close to conclusive data as you are going to get in AAS research in my opionion.
[quote]Prisoner wrote:
Fact of the matter is you hate me, and that is pretty obvious, so having any form of a civil intellectual debate with you is just going to turn into a pissing match, so lets just not go there anymore.
[/quote]
I would have to give a shit about you before I could hate you. You were the one that started dragging this down by insulting people who are far more respected, and have contributed to this community than you. I merely said I don’t believe in the taper, and I am in distinguished company in doing so.
You are incapable of intellectual debate if you are even doubted in the slightest.
I said I was done - but you have to continue.
Reputable publishers, or not - please direct me to anything you have had published. Anything at all will do.
[quote]rainjack wrote:
Prisoner wrote:
Fact of the matter is you hate me, and that is pretty obvious, so having any form of a civil intellectual debate with you is just going to turn into a pissing match, so lets just not go there anymore.
You were the one that started dragging this down by insulting people who are far more respected, and have contributed to this community than you. I merely said I don’t believe in the taper, and I am in distinguished company in doing so.
Reputable publishers, or not - please direct me to anything you have had published. Anything at all will do. [/quote]
I am not taking a side at all…as I respect both RJ and Pris for their forum membership and contributions to this place.
But, i don’t recognize who these people being dragged down are. And who are these great contributors being directly insulted by Pris?
Published doesn’t amount to shit whatsoever. Look at Anthony Roberts. I can easily become published in my scientific field. A few “published” folks I know in my industry I would classify as incompetent and limited, not all, but a couple. Any jackass can read and regurgitate. And virtually any individual with a scientific degree has the capacity to read, interpret and apply knowledge of any kind with some success. Truly nothing special! All that is required is the time and drive required to get it done.
Pris has insulted you, as you have him. However, I hope you’re not lumping yourself into the “respected contributor category” beyond posting on a forum. Because in the “community”, you are a benefactor by virtue of the existence of ChemOne and not a contributor simply by conflict of interest. The fact that you pipe up about the taper all the time just looks like a thinly veiled attack to keep PCT business.
I could be wrong. Don’t care much. Just sick of the recess time arguments cluttering up this forum and certain threads.
GAY!!!
All I know is I that I agree with whomever is da most popularist!!?!
Great job!
Seriously though, let’s drop the retard-speak (ad-homs) and keep the discussion going.
Anybody know what the time difference is between Atlanta and L.A. (no homo) ?
There’s so much collective animosity in T-Nation sometimes. Other times, it’s the same-old same-old. Frankly, so long as disputes are settled and information is laid out, it doesn’t matter to me what name calling or finger pointing goes on; something useful comes out of it. But all too often, especially recently, it comes down to childish bickering with nothing to show for it other than a quid pro quo circle of accusations. I’m not going to say I don’t do it, in fact I confess it’s hypocritical of me to even point it out. But for the sake of ending this potentially endless debate, I merely suggest all parties keep their egos in check and stop already.
[quote]juice20jd wrote:
rainjack wrote:
Prisoner wrote:
Fact of the matter is you hate me, and that is pretty obvious, so having any form of a civil intellectual debate with you is just going to turn into a pissing match, so lets just not go there anymore.
You were the one that started dragging this down by insulting people who are far more respected, and have contributed to this community than you. I merely said I don’t believe in the taper, and I am in distinguished company in doing so.
Reputable publishers, or not - please direct me to anything you have had published. Anything at all will do.
I am not taking a side at all…as I respect both RJ and Pris for their forum membership and contributions to this place.
But, i don’t recognize who these people being dragged down are. And who are these great contributors being directly insulted by Pris?
Published doesn’t amount to shit whatsoever. Look at Anthony Roberts. I can easily become published in my scientific field. A few “published” folks I know in my industry I would classify as incompetent and limited, not all, but a couple. Any jackass can read and regurgitate. And virtually any individual with a scientific degree has the capacity to read, interpret and apply knowledge of any kind with some success. Truly nothing special! All that is required is the time and drive required to get it done.
Pris has insulted you, as you have him. However, I hope you’re not lumping yourself into the “respected contributor category” beyond posting on a forum. Because in the “community”, you are a benefactor by virtue of the existence of ChemOne and not a contributor simply by conflict of interest. The fact that you pipe up about the taper all the time just looks like a thinly veiled attack to keep PCT business.
I could be wrong. Don’t care much. Just sick of the recess time arguments cluttering up this forum and certain threads.
GAY!!!
[/quote]
It most certainly is.
Look - read the damn thread. I merely stated that I agreed with the OP that the taper is an exercise in futility. I cited Bill Roberts, and William Llewellyn as having the same opinion about the taper. If you don’t know who either of these gentlemen are - you need to get out of this fucking place and do some looking around. I’ll give you one hint Anabolics 200? - 2007. I have no idea how many volumes Llewellyn has put out, but anyone thinking he is not qualified to offer an opinion on tapering is seriously fucked in the head.
You are most categorically wrong if you think for a second that I think I am anywhere near those two’s status.
As soon as I mentioned their names, P-man had to get on and tell everyon how fucking smart he is, and how stupid everyone who disagrees with him is.
I was defending those I look up to and respect to someone I think is full of shit.
Go ahead - read the thread in order and see if P isn’t the one showing his ass first. He is nothing more than a regular poster - just like me.
I’ll be happy to let this thread die when you all do.
Dead.
The end?
I’m not on anybody’s side, either. I like RJ and Pris.
I will say that no one is infallible, however. Not even scientists. And as evidence I submit that many of William Llewellyn’s suggested AAS cycles would be laughed off of this board, were they posted by someone without citation. A casual flip through his book will reveal that many (most?) of them don’t even involve test (or it is used only a few weeks out of a 12-16 or more week cycle with 19-nors and such).
Regardless of whose peacock feathers are brighter…sorry, I mean whose anal glands are brighter red…I do think that real world experience counts for a lot, doesn’t trump science, but it counts for a LOT, in our thing. We have to be careful, of course, that bro knowledge does not take over and what is accepted as fact is so because of internet status or self interest. I honestly feel that is not the case in this situation. We do have a whole lot of case studies. I am currently one of them. And many, many of them seem to show the same good results.
This issue is obviously contentious enough, however, that the individual user is just going to have to try it out for himself and compare it to other methods and see what he likes best.
And for the record, I think both RJ and Pris are valuable contributors to our community, published or not. No homo.